Lance Armstrong to be stripped of medals

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Lunar Templar

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Sep 20, 2009
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are the french STILL on about this?

fuck me ... talk about a group needing to get the fuck over something.

AN AMERICAN BEAT YOU, GET OVER IT
 

Smooth Operator

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Oct 5, 2010
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Erja_Perttu said:
Well, if he cheated, he cheated. If you don't win fairly you shouldn't win at all.
After years of unsubstantiated prosecutions he has said he had enough, this is taken as admission of guilt and this is why they will take his titles.
Only thing prosecutors proved sofar is they got more patience then their targets.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Aug 30, 2011
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Oxygenation was all the rage not too long ago, and every cyclist worth their wheels was doing it. I have little doubt Lance used a few tricks, not even steroids or anything drug-related, but I don't think he was ahead of the field with it. The runners up were all found to be doping. I think he does deserve the medals, at least as much as any other competing professional cyclist in those events.
 

littlewisp

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Mar 25, 2010
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I've been to court for a small claims charge brought against me. That only took a year of my life, and my name/honor wasn't up for the whole world to criticize. Three years of a federal fucking investigation and over ten of endless testing and accusation? Yeah, can't say I blame him for quitting. That year was hard enough for me, and that was without any investigation or me having to sink money into a legal team, without me having to spend YEARS working with that legal team -- just having it hanging over my head.

I'm on Lance's side for this one.
 

Calibanbutcher

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Nov 29, 2009
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Lunar Templar said:
are the french STILL on about this?

fuck me ... talk about a group needing to get the fuck over something.

AN AMERICAN BEAT YOU, GET OVER IT
Nope. The americans are still going on about this. In france, no-one cares-
 

Lunar Templar

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Sep 20, 2009
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Calibanbutcher said:
Lunar Templar said:
are the french STILL on about this?

fuck me ... talk about a group needing to get the fuck over something.

AN AMERICAN BEAT YOU, GET OVER IT
Nope. The americans are still going on about this. In france, no-one cares-
eh, every one needs to get the fuck over it then, he's passed how my drug screens now? so ... why are we wasting more time and money on trying to make a guy look bad?
 

Krantos

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Jun 30, 2009
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smithy_2045 said:
But there is nothing conclusive to prove it, and until there is, there is no reason to strip him of his titles or medals or whatever.
And they won't until then. The USADA took his withdrawal as an admission of guild, but the UCI which is the only who can actually pull his titles isn't on board yet. They do want to see the evidence though, so...?

Who knows? The case may be a witchhunt or it may be legit. The USADA does seem to have a better case, if their claims to evidence are valid, but it's up to the UCI to decide, near as I can tell.
 

JoeCool385

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May 10, 2010
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May I jump into the conversation at this point to question the general policy against all forms of doping? Why do these rules exist? Is it because players who dope have an unfair advantage over those who don't? But doesn't that apply in other situations, too?

For instance, suppose it was discovered that eating certain foods prior to an event increased an athlete's ability to perform. For the sake of argument, suppose it was discovered that eating carbohydrate-rich foods [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbo-loading] (Wikipedia) enhanced an athlete's performance. Wouldn't, then athletes who used such a "carbo-loading" diet regimen have an unfair advantage over those who ate nothing but twinkies, ho-hos, and ding dongs before an event? I suppose, then, that all athletes could adopt this designer diet to be on equal footing, but doesn't the same apply to doping?

My understanding is that doping is not allowed because of the inherent health risks of the drugs, such as steroids. To allow them in competition would mean that athletes who subject their bodies to unhealthy behaviors have an advantage. Since we would (presumably) want to allow athletes who like to lead healthy lifestyles to compete effectively, we would ban harmful drugs from the sport.

But how does this relate to blood doping? What is unhealthy about injecting yourself with your own blood? From reading the Wikipedia article [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping#Negative_effects], it seems that it isn't particularly unhealthy:

The simple act of increasing the number of red blood cells in blood raises its viscosity, which can cause it to clot or coagulate more readily. This increases the chances of heart attack, stroke, and pulmonary embolism, which has been seen in cases where there is too much blood reintroduced into the blood stream. Among factors that govern blood flow, however, viscosity is of relatively minor importance except in extreme circumstances or in patients with vascular disease. The Hagen-Poiseuille equation for blood flow states that any change in blood viscosity affects blood flow 16-fold less than a proportionate change in vessel radius, and therefore polycythemia is unlikely to be harmful except in certain circumstances.
In fact, the biggest health risk seemed to be the risk of infection from improper storage of the blood, and injecting the blood in a non-clinical setting, which is only a problem because it isn't allowed. Also, blood doping has been approved in the Australian military (I know, the military isn't exactly designed for health and longevity).

So can someone explain to me why certain performance-enhancing drugs and procedures shouldn't be allowed, so long as all competitors have access and it is not an excessive health risk? Does blood doping pose a health risk greater than that inherent with sports?

Related: SNL's All-Drug Olympics. [http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/update-all-drug-olympics/1198068] (NBC.com)
 

soren7550

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Dec 18, 2008
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As far as I'm aware, the man hasn't tested positive for anything. And I don't see how a US company/group/whatever has jurisdiction over a French sporting event.
 

Treblaine

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Jul 25, 2008
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Erja_Perttu said:
Well, if he cheated, he cheated. If you don't win fairly you shouldn't win at all.

It's too bad he had cancer and all, but I've had a cold recently, that doesn't mean I can win the marathon on a moped.
The problem is it is neither of those options.

He is accused and after 13 years of baseless accusation he has stopped objecting to the accusations.

Seriously, no one has actually presented the proof beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty of doping and he remains denying it. Something like how he cheated a doping test and the traces. Instead just "consistent with". Well that's the problem, that's circumstantial evidence.

This is terrible justice, whether he is guilty or innocent, this is a punishment without a fair conviction. The authorities jurisdiction should be clear, they should have made their case and proven it or failed to and NOT subjected this person to double jeopardy (also triple and sextuplet jeopardy).
 

Pebblig

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Jan 27, 2011
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Given he was such a success, everyone is gonna constantly accuse him of doping.

Still in my opinion he is a fantastic cyclist, given the cancer then the consecutive 7 wins you can't help but be impressed.

Even if they strip him of his titles he'll always be remembered for it.
 

Treblaine

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Jul 25, 2008
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JoeCool385 said:
May I jump into the conversation at this point to question the general policy against all forms of doping? Why do these rules exist? Is it because players who dope have an unfair advantage over those who don't? But doesn't that apply in other situations, too?

For instance, suppose it was discovered that eating certain foods prior to an event increased an athlete's ability to perform. For the sake of argument, suppose it was discovered that eating carbohydrate-rich foods [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbo-loading] (Wikipedia) enhanced an athlete's performance. Wouldn't, then athletes who used such a "carbo-loading" diet regimen have an unfair advantage over those who ate nothing but twinkies, ho-hos, and ding dongs before an event? I suppose, then, that all athletes could adopt this designer diet to be on equal footing, but doesn't the same apply to doping?

My understanding is that doping is not allowed because of the inherent health risks of the drugs, such as steroids. To allow them in competition would mean that athletes who subject their bodies to unhealthy behaviors have an advantage. Since we would (presumably) want to allow athletes who like to lead healthy lifestyles to compete effectively, we would ban harmful drugs from the sport.

But how does this relate to blood doping? What is unhealthy about injecting yourself with your own blood? From reading the Wikipedia article [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping#Negative_effects], it seems that it isn't particularly unhealthy:

The simple act of increasing the number of red blood cells in blood raises its viscosity, which can cause it to clot or coagulate more readily. This increases the chances of heart attack, stroke, and pulmonary embolism, which has been seen in cases where there is too much blood reintroduced into the blood stream. Among factors that govern blood flow, however, viscosity is of relatively minor importance except in extreme circumstances or in patients with vascular disease. The Hagen-Poiseuille equation for blood flow states that any change in blood viscosity affects blood flow 16-fold less than a proportionate change in vessel radius, and therefore polycythemia is unlikely to be harmful except in certain circumstances.
In fact, the biggest health risk seemed to be the risk of infection from improper storage of the blood, and injecting the blood in a non-clinical setting, which is only a problem because it isn't allowed. Also, blood doping has been approved in the Australian military (I know, the military isn't exactly designed for health and longevity).

So can someone explain to me why certain performance-enhancing drugs and procedures shouldn't be allowed, so long as all competitors have access and it is not an excessive health risk? Does blood doping pose a health risk greater than that inherent with sports?

Related: SNL's All-Drug Olympics. [http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/update-all-drug-olympics/1198068] (NBC.com)
These are strange rituals. Who cares about how fast a man on a bike can race when we have cars that can race at 200mph?

There is a fundamentally Luddite sensibility in sports, to escape from technology that takes us faster and higher and feel that there is somehow a closer connection to the humanity of the players when you remove the technology.

Bicycles are fundamentally limited technology, there is only so much performance gains to can get from any one bike, but drugs are seen as limitless.

Most interesting drugs are psychological drugs as it's becoming increasingly apparent that being merely physically the best isn't enough if your motor cortex to "run faster" is overruled by the part of the brain that say "Why? Why run so fast, what if you fall, what if you push the muscles too hard, what's the point" This is why people can lift cars off small children yet they couldn't lift them later. Athletes go on and on about "got to give 100%" or the almost cliche "Give 110%" betray how they are in fact NOT giving 100%! They aren't going - literally - as fast as they could possibly go. The thing is if they DID go that fast... they'd probably rip their tendons out of their joints.

But what'll blow your mind is that a drug that these kind of drugs are really effective with placebos. Yes, you can give an athlete a sugar pill, telling them it will unlock the potential of their motor cortex and you will see a significant improvement.