Larenxis Takes You On: Canadian Military Presence In Afghanistan

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Larenxis

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In response to Fire Daemon:
The Taliban still holds a lot of power. They are very influential in the country; more so than the kleptocracy that is the Afghani government.

Would you prefer diplomatic action?

I do not live in the US, so I don't really know what it's like. My information comes from Americans on television and polls. Both of these sources indicate that Americans aren't happy with the War on Terror.

On the matter of war, I think we're having trouble communicating. It doesn't help that you're mocking me. Would you be more scared by someone dressed in a sheet, or by an army that has killed many of your countrymen? Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by the word 'threatening'. If you've killed 50% and continue to fight, you are threatening to kill the other 50%.

EDIT: Going to bed, but please continue the discussion, it's really fun and I look forward to reading it in the morning.
 

zari

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Fire Daemon said:
If the USA, Canada and many other countries did not invade Afghanistan then there may have been more attacks (maybe not but I don't like to take risks) and that would result in more deaths.
That's an interesting point. I wonder what the cost in human lives would have been on BOTH 'sides' (for lack of a better word, since I doubt the majority of Afghanis affected by this conflict had the slightest to do with Al-Qaeda) if the US had decided to seek retribution on bin Laden and Al-Qaeda through other means (be they covert or political). Not even counting the spill-on effect of Iraq.

The war in Afghanistan gave people that sense of security, that is its point, that is why there are still combats between Canadians,Americans Australians etc occurring. To make people feel safe. There are other reasons for other countries, such as gaining popularity with other countries but I don't feel up to listing them all.
I respectfully disagree. The conflict in Afghanistan is still hapenning because the countries involved have no way of bringing it to an effective conclusion.

And I still stand by the my statement "you have to be incredibly ignorant to think that people create war to scare people, people make ghost trains to scare, they make war for other reasons." Like I said before, fear is used to win a war but that don't make war to scare other people. War is about other things then scaring the beejevus out of other people,
A normal war sure, the point is to win decisively. This is not a normal war with well defined participants and objectives though. It began as an exercise in retribution, namely killing those that participated in the WTC bombing (and their affiliates I suppose). However then it grew into something else - a demonstration of what would happen if you crossed the US. The purpose of this is dissuasion through fear (just observe the saber-rattling toward North Korea and Iran since then).

[pointless halloween-y examples of Germany and France snipped]
 

Fire Daemon

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Dec 18, 2007
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In response to Larenxis:

I had no idea the Taliban held enough power to be considered the leaders of Afghanistan, I thought of them as a recently defeated force who still have followers but don't hold power.

I would prefer diplomatic action then the War of Terror but diplomacy is not always an option. I'm not sure if the Afghanistan War is one of these cases, perhaps things could have been done differently, perhaps not. I don't know.

I don't live in the US either however the information I receive is usually something along the lines of "God bless America" and "they bombed us so we bomb them". I know this isn't the case for all Americans so settle down, this is just the image that the Australian News presents (for me).

As for the War thing, I don't think you would kill half a country just to scare the other half which seems to me what you are saying. This just dose not make sense to me. In my opinion you would "kill half the population to scare the other half into surrendering and then you win the war" therefore the point is not to scare but to win.

To zari: I'm sure if NATO decided to covertly take out Bin Laden then there would have been a lot less blood loss but the problem is that they had no real idea where he was.

Yes the War in Afghanistan is a huge mess, far to many people have died.

In my opinion war is always about winning but how you win differs. America has won by scaring other countries into submission but on the other hand they have loss by becoming the most hated nation in the world. You are not correct in saying that this is not a normal war because what is a normal war?
 

PurpleRain

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I don't mind anti-war activists by how can people sit by and watch a nation kill itself? The Middle East countries we 'attacked' for whatever reasons could only do it good. Yes people die and bad stuff generally happens in a war, but what's worse, that or geneocide?

The Taliban attacked America, Bali, Spain and London, killing innocent people (not including what they're doing back home) and not going to war would be so ignorent of us. To turn the other check at this is inhumane.

(not attacking. I like a good war argument)
 

zari

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Fire Daemon said:
I'm sure if NATO decided to covertly take out Bin Laden then there would have been a lot less blood loss but the problem is that they had no real idea where he was.
Sad but true. And so they invaded a whole country.

Fire Daemon said:
In my opinion war is always about winning but how you win differs. America has won by scaring other countries into submission but on the other hand they have loss by becoming the most hated nation in the world. You are not correct in saying that this is not a normal war because what is a normal war?
Well if you look at the traditional interpretation, then war is a state between two or more nations (or factions within a nation in the case of a civil war), where the leadership, the military, and presumably the people have the same objective. Objectives are clear, whether they be seizure of land or resources, overthrowing leadership, etc.

In this case (as with the war on drugs) you have war on a notion. Sure the supposed original objective was to get Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, but it was sold as a war on Terror not a war on Osama. Who do you fight to 'win' against terror? Why terrorists of course. And where are the terrorists? Trickier question. First they were in Afghanistan, then they were in Iraq, now who knows where they are? You can win or lose a war against a nation or other overt opponent. You can't win the war on terror because you'll never know when you've won.

Then comes the frightening side of the concept. Because the country or countries are nominally 'at war', people are willing to accept things they wouldn't normally for the duration. Some historical examples are the encouragement to buy 'war' bonds, accept higher taxes, fix prices, accept the draft, etc. More recently the examples have been curbs on civil liberties such as increased surveillance of communication lines (in some cases in the US in contravention of its own existing laws), 'no fly' lists, and mandatory searches based on certain criteria. People are making excuses for behaviour because "we're at war". It is gratifying to see that detainees in Guantanamo now have the right to challenge their detention in court though, thanks to the Supreme Court doing its job.

The difference between more traditional wars and this one is that the previous wars ended. To quote Bush's address in 2001 [http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html], "Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated."

Oh and for Larenxis when she looks at this again, I did a bit of Googling after I got home about pre-war diplomacy. There was some, but they spelled it 'ultimatum' rather than 'diplomacy'.
Link here [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/17/september11.politics]
It's quite sad looking a little way down the article to see:
The pressure on the US administration to exact revenge was underlined by a public opinion poll which showed that 84% of Americans supported military retaliation. Two-thirds of them would support it "even if it means many thousands of innocent civilians may be killed".
Anyhow, now that things are well and truly off topic I'll probably end my participation here ;P Nice talking with you folks.
 

werepossum

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America did not like the Taliban prior to 9-11, but considered them to be no threat to the USA. 9-11 changed the way we think. First, some background on Islamic extremism. There are many verses in the Qu'ran (e.g. Al Baqarah 2:190-194) that some Muslims interpret as commanding Muslims to kill unbelievers everywhere, all the time, and other Muslims interpret as commanding them to kill unbelievers when fighting in a holy war or when the unbelievers are threatening or oppressing you. There are similar books in the Old Testament (e.g. Leviticus, as bloody-minded as any interpretation of the Qu'ran), but there are not large numbers of people organized to follow these strictures and kill. Most if not all Muslim nations devote some resources to groups with these beliefs, but generally speaking this is considered just one of those things that one sovereign nation does which annoys another sovereign nation; part of life. Generally speaking, the mosques and organizations receiving this aid maintain at least a polite fiction of separation between the part that advocates for Muslims and/or provides charity for Muslims, and the part that chops off heads and blows up buses.

When the Taliban took over Afghanistan - easily the most warlike nation on Earth - that somewhat changed the equation. For the first time in modern history a nation openly backed a terrorist organization (al-Qa'ida or "the Base") dedicated to killing and driving out from Islamic lands all non-believers, toppling all non-believer governments, wiping out all other religions but Islam, and establishing Islamic theocracies in all countries. (It's important at this point to remember that all religions want to maintain purity and to be the One Religion, the difference being in the methods. Jehovah's Witnesses do not come to your door to convert you or kill you. Jews don't murder their daughters if they get raped. And of course, the vast majority of Muslims don't do these things either - but large numbers do.)

The reason this is key is because for the first time a terrorist organization could openly raise money, openly have offices and training grounds, with government backing and even government funding. A problem, but still not worth going to war. Then al-Qa'ida attacked the USA and killed almost 3,000 of us. Now it's a problem worth going to war.

At this point this easiest solution would be to use nukes. Wipe every city in Afghanistan off the face of the Earth, turn the country's cities into glazed glass. No more Afghanistan, no more safe haven for al-Qa'ida. Of course, contrary to what you seem to think the USA is not equivalent to al-Qa'ida, so that was never an option. That leaves limited war or simply rolling over and taking it. The problem with the second option - what America had been doing since Islamic terrorism began - is that Islamic extremists despise weakness. One Islamic terrorist organization killing 3,000 Americans and getting away with it inspires other Islamic terrorist organizations to try to kill as many or more Americans; America had become a paper tiger. Remember that the ultimate goal of Islamic terrorist organizations is to destroy all democracies and all religions but Islam, and to kill or enslave all non-Muslims.

If we use war but not nukes, then we have a problem. As I said, Afghanistan is easily the most warlike nation on Earth - they would have thrown us out. We would have killed ten of them for every one of us they killed, but we would have tired of it first, just as in Viet Nam. So our problem is to eliminate the Taliban and with it al-Qa'ida's safe base of operations, but without alienating the world any more than we have to. Luckily there were multiple factions fighting for control of Afghanistan - there are always multiple factions fighting for control of Afghanistan when they aren't united in fighting invaders -and the largest of these factions was more friendly toward America than was the Taliban. (Still demanding government by Sharia, but willing to accept some Western influences such as schooling girls and not killing them to restore family honor if they have the poor judgment or just bad luck to become non-virgins.) So we made a deal to help them overthrow the Taliban. Ever heard the old saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Now to Canada's role, which is two-fold. First, Canada is a NATO treaty member; it has protection but also obligations under that treaty, to come to the aid of any other member nation upon any armed attack in Europe or North America (Article 5. When our Marines were killed in Beirut, there was no treat obligation to come to our aid. There was a legal obligation in response to 9-11.) The USA has always carried the lion's share of NATO's military responsibility, but all NATO nations recognized that if NATO didn't respond with at least token armed forces, then the USA could reasonably be expected to pull out of NATO. Even tiny Luxembourg has a double handful of people.

The second role, which is really an extension of the first, is the UN mandate. Recognizing that it does no good to Western civilization to remove the Taliban from power only to have them return to power six months later, NATO went to the UN and received a mandate to send a NATO-led force (the International Security Assistance Force) to Afghanistan to provide additional protection to the fledgling Afghani government as it stands up an army and a police force. As Sun Tzu said, he who guards all, guards nothing. One way to offset this somewhat is to artificially increase your strength with outside forces. You still can't guard everything - but you can guard more. As Afghanistan's armed and police forces become more capable and Afghanistan moves from a society based on the power of individuals (warlords and clerics) to a society based on the power of the state, NATO and UN forces will gradually withdraw. Without this assistance, powerful Islamist forces such as Iran, Syria, the Pushtu regions of Pakistan, and elements of Saudi Arabia would pour fighters and materiel into the Taliban's efforts until the Afghani government fell and Taliban rule (with al-Qa'ida) was restored.

As to the morality of the effort in effort in Afghanistan, there are effects beyond the elimination of a safe haven for terrorists. Although women are still considered property (first of their parents, then of their husbands), they now have certain rights. Parents may send their daughters to school and even university; it's even encouraged. Religious police do not roam the streets beating women who wear eye shadow or ripping out fingernails with polish. Women are not legally required to be covered from head to toe in a burqa (an Afghanistan invention.) Women can work outside the home and even own property (within the constraints of Sharia.) Polygamy and bride price have been abolished, meaning a man cannot buy a young bride nor replace an aging wife without divorce and compensation. A girl who is raped cannot be legally murdered by her family to "restore the family honor." A girl cannot legally be sentenced to be gang-raped by the brothers of a woman her own brother slept with. None of these things were true under the Taliban. I suspect you would still find it a living hell - but it's a hell a few layers up from the hell of living under the Taliban.

If none of these things have value to you... Well, enjoy your life and hope that enough Canadians value these things to keep your freedom for you.
 

Saskwach

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werepossum said:
Good stuff.
Exactly. Really, people are on more solid ground in the Iraq debate but there is really no way you can deny that the invasion of Afghanistan wasn't warranted and hasn't been, overall, a good thing. You can criticise the running of the occupation- that's been a bit screwball- but other than that, there's no leg to stand on.
 

Nugoo

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Werepossum, a lot of what you write seems specious. Here is a list of stuff that would be better off with sources:
werepossum said:
...Afghanistan - easily the most warlike nation on Earth...
...Islamic extremists despise weakness...
...the ultimate goal of Islamic terrorist organizations is to destroy all democracies and all religions but Islam, and to kill or enslave all non-Muslims...
I think we've all heard the phrase, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." It was probably the motivation behind the American government funding and training the Taliban to fight Soviet Russia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen#Afghanistan], or when they fought with Soviet Russia against the Nazis.

While westernization of Afghanistan would, indeed, bring many benefits to the women who live there, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that that's anything more than a beneficial side effect. Western governments tend not to be motivated by human rights violations (See: Darfur [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_the_international_community_in_the_Rwandan_Genocide]. Hell, the US didn't even get involved in WWII until Pearl Harbour was bombed).

As for my opinion on Canada's involvement, I'm more than a little conflicted. On the one hand, I think we're doing some good work and we are obliged to honour the NATO treaty. On the other hand, I abhor violence. I would much prefer if we were to pursue a diplomatic solution rather than a military one.

In response to the original post, I think "Dying for your country" only applies to wars for independence and conquest. If it's used out of that context, you should definitely be suspicious.
 

Gooble

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Right, first of all it's probably better for the Afghan people that the Taleban government were overthrown-although you can argue about different cultures/religions

The fighting did die right down for a couple of years, but evidently in this time the Taleban had simply regrouped, hence the recent upsurge in fighting.

However, now the main leaders/force has been killed by Nato forces, they've reverted to suicide attacks, which shows that we are winning, but now need to try and steadily hand back provinces to Afghan police/troops, and pull out.
 

x434343

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Guys, you guys think that the only pullout that'll work is under a new president.

Currently:
1. Bush said we would pull out when Iraq was ready.
2. As of late April, Iraq has stated they were ready.
3. The last of the surge troops will be out in July of this year, 2008.
4. 45 days will be deliberated to determine if, when, and how we will pull out.
5 If, 45 days after the last surge troop is out, all are decided to pull out, we might end up with no war for the new president to inherit in January of 2009.

So, Iraq gets a free republic where women can vote, we are back at home, and idiots who have fought over the war in Iraq for presidency are gonna be embarassed.
 

Easykill

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The whole "Terror" thing isn't enough reason for a war; and trying to impose civil rights on them seems ultimately pointless, it would take many years of occupation to get it to the point where things would stay the way they were if we pulled out. And we'll get cold feet way before then.
Besides, the past has shown that western influence in the middle east is always a bad thing, it always leaves the western country richer and the middle eastern one in even more chaos.
 

cleverlymadeup

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well that was quite the read, werepossum that was very well written

as for the anti-war sentiments, well they are rather misguided. canada is not there as a occupying force, they are there for peace keeping and to help maintain some order until the government/people can get a better control over the country

the taliban and al-qa'ida are actually american creations when they supplied arms to both groups in a twisted "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" type deal, they still hated america as much as they hated the russians

to say that what we are doing is to actually show a lack of knowledge about the world and canada's roll in it. we aren't warlike, we are peace keepers. the last war we were in was the first gulf war, which was because iraq invaded kuwait. other than that canada is mostly peace keepers, they go in AFTER the fighting has stopped and help make sure that fighting does not continue.

as for Noam Chompsky, he's a smart man but he also believes a lot of odd and really misguided things, such a 9-11 was an inside job and he's a rather large conspiracy nut
 

Axeli

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Another reason why conquering a country to stop terrorism is illogical as hell is that terrorism rises exactly from that situation: People feeling opressed with no way to fight back. In other words, when an opressed nation is not able to fight a fair war, they logically revert to guerilla and terrorist tactics.

9/11 was the face of USA's support for Israel and politics in Middle-East brought to their own ground (whether those politics are for better or worse, who knows...). The individuals who died might have been innocent, but as a country USA was not. From that point of view, 9/11 while obviously a bad thing, is simple the reality of the bad things that happen, with the participation of US (and of course many other western countries as well).
USA is not any less responsible to pay the toll than Israel, Palestine, etc. are. Countries quite simply have to be ready to pay the price for their politics, and you can'r expect live in total peace while being involved with wars and conflicts.

Of course, US had to somehow react to the terrorist attacks, but could we please drop the idea that pure and innocent USA got attacked by big bad terrorist just out of their pure evilness? When we take things out of the level of individuals to the level of nations, as US itself has done by avenging with wars instead of hunting down individuals, there are no true victims or villains.

It's just a shitty situation we have for reality. And what's the most amusing at the root of the majority of the problems (i.e. Israel and Palestine) is, ta-da, Hitler. What's even more amusing is that the situation created by chain of events set into motion by Hitler has resulted in the biggest amount of jew-hate since pre-WWII era.
 

cleverlymadeup

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Axeli said:
It's just a shitty situation we have for reality. And what's the most amusing at the root of the majority of the problems (i.e. Israel and Palestine) is, ta-da, Hitler. What's even more amusing is that the situation created by chain of events set into motion by Hitler has resulted in the biggest amount of jew-hate since pre-WWII era.
right blame the nazis, cept the jewish thing was going on well before the nazis came around, the jews were asking for their own country for a long while

and the thing about the jewish hate thing was very well and alive pre-ww2, it's just that ww2 just brought it out into the open and got the world to go "what the hell are we doing?" because if there wasn't the large amount of quiet hatred of the jews pre-ww2 then the nazis couldn't have done what they did
 

51gunner

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I'm not a military historian, I'm a Canadian soldier. Having been involved in the process of sending troops to the country, I enjoy some background information on the justification of 'why' Canada is involved at all.

- September 11'th: The fact usually lost here from a Canadian standpoint is that when Al-Qaida launched its suicide attacks on this day, Canadian citizens died in this attack, making it an act of war against Canada. This is the justification of 'why' Canada has any involvement in war at all.

- Escalation of force: Op. Medusa was launched shortly thereafter. As I'm not a historian, I can't give you a date or any nitpicks of that nature. This operation struck at the Taliban regime: purging them to the countryside and out of open power over the nation. This was the direct response to the initial strike on American soil: a counterattack against Al-Qaida and the Taliban.

- Change of Intent: With the Taliban removed from the position of power in the nation, a lawless void was left. NATO stepped in to fill this void, with different member nations of NATO filling different roles. The scope and intent of operations changed: there must be security keeping the Taliban from resuming their regime, and these elements continue to hunt and eliminate the enemy. The Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) rebuilds a shattered nation, winning 'hearts and minds' of the civilian population. Other elements train and aid the Afghan National Army and the Afghan National Police (ANA and ANP)

- Currently, the primary focus of the mission is to rebuild after the destruction of earlier operations to eliminate the Taliban. The combat elements in theatre are kept there to finish off the Taliban in hiding and protect the reconstruction effort. The actions of the PRT are to win the respect, and 'hearts and minds' of the citizens, as well as to clean up the nation and improve standard of life. Combat teams keep the PRT, and fledgling ANA / ANP secure. The exit strategy is to leave when the ANA and ANP are capable of handling their own rebuilt country, well scoured of Taliban.

I don't monitor these forums diligently enough to continue a debate here, if you desire to speak with me, debate with me, or question/correct (WITH REFERENCES) me, send a message to st886140@dal.ca
 

Funky4String

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Larenxis said:
I do not live in the US, so I don't really know what it's like. My information comes from Americans on television and polls. Both of these sources indicate that Americans aren't happy with the War on Terror.
I feel as if you took the wrong approach. As much as I agree that most of America is war-fatigued, I feel that the News on Television and in the Newspapers today isn't as much news as it is propaganda. I'm only 17 and can't vote in this election because my birthday is 10 days after, but if I were to vote, I would be scared to death of who to choose, as neither, in my opinion, are worthy. However, back to my original point, I don't rely upon television or newspapers (only good for crosswords nowadays) as much as I do the internet (through cross-referencing) to get the info I need.

To find out what it is like here, either talk to an American (we don't all bite upon seeing Canadians), or in extreme cases, travel there (our dollar is down, and I do remember going to Canada when their dollar was much lower than ours). And not to joke about money, there are my two cents.

Hence why you could call me Libertarian.
 

CanadianWolverine

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Personally, I want our Canadian military to come home.

My reasons: The past has contained "False Flag" operations before, so its not unreasonable to suspect the as yet poorly investigated events of 9/11 that for all intents and purposes bore a lot of striking familiarity to a demolition, which is something that came to mind as I watched that fateful day back in 2001. By extension, if I have reason to doubt the original premise of a unconventional attack by a foreign organization, I can not voice support for military action that occupies another country's recognized territory.

You know the saying "Send a thief to catch a thief"? Well, I think the same holds true for unconventional war; when it comes to a group like Al Queda, one should send their own unconventional warriors right back at them, not invade and occupy. While it would be less public or even publicly accepted to send assasins after assasins, IMHO, it would be far more effective. Remember the now publicly known about assasin squads of Israelis they sent after the groups responsible for the hostage taking and killing in Germany during the Olympics? They smoked out and eliminated far more "Osama Bin Laden" types then what is currently going on.

Still, I very much question the whole situation that currently exists, given the mounting evidence of US government quick movement towards policies that limit ones civil liberties while at the same time not having full disclosure on the events of 9/11/2001 now almost 7 years later. One part of government moving fast, even to the point of having completed certain steps before the event in question, and the other moving so slow as to not actually having completed anything at all. It doesn't add up to a pleasant scenario unfolding, and its one I would rather not see Canada involved in at all, but its all too possible that the financial ties, thus policy influence, of Canada and the US are far too close to ever consider having Canada with draw from NATO despite pressure from the electorate/citizenry for our own freedoms and the valuable lives of our military personel.
 

Axeli

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cleverlymadeup said:
Axeli said:
It's just a shitty situation we have for reality. And what's the most amusing at the root of the majority of the problems (i.e. Israel and Palestine) is, ta-da, Hitler. What's even more amusing is that the situation created by chain of events set into motion by Hitler has resulted in the biggest amount of jew-hate since pre-WWII era.
right blame the nazis, cept the jewish thing was going on well before the nazis came around, the jews were asking for their own country for a long while

and the thing about the jewish hate thing was very well and alive pre-ww2, it's just that ww2 just brought it out into the open and got the world to go "what the hell are we doing?" because if there wasn't the large amount of quiet hatred of the jews pre-ww2 then the nazis couldn't have done what they did
Perhpas, but there's never one absolute reason for anything.
The point is that the Jewish would never been able to overtake Palestine without the support from US and other western countries... And that, almost unquestioning support was precisely because of what nazis did. Would they have had to keep simply buying some land with their savings, no nation of Israel would be in sight for some time, nor would the muslim population be as pissed as they are now.

While the reasons go also back to the jew-hate before the rise of the nazi rule, it was them who with drastic means made, even if unwittingly, the history take this course. Such brutality against Jews goes well beyond the theory of some historical events having to inevitably take place, undepending on any certain individuals.

And I'm not trying to move the responsibility on some long dead system of the past, but simply pointing out the irony of the cause and effect here.
 

TomNook

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CanadianWolverine said:
Personally, I want our Canadian military to come home.

My reasons: The past has contained "False Flag" operations before, so its not unreasonable to suspect the as yet poorly investigated events of 9/11 that for all intents and purposes bore a lot of striking familiarity to a demolition, which is something that came to mind as I watched that fateful day back in 2001. By extension, if I have reason to doubt the original premise of a unconventional attack by a foreign organization, I can not voice support for military action that occupies another country's recognized territory.

*sigh* Well that didn't take long.