Larenxis Takes You On: Canadian Military Presence In Afghanistan

[werepossum]

To werepossum: Your points remind me of "bayoneting babies in Berlin". War time propaganda has given the Muslims an image of insane radicals who treat each other cruelty. You really have soaked up all the lies told to you to justify the war in Afghanistan if you believe those things.

I just couldn't resist checking this thread ONE more time before I go home. lol

Fire Daemon, you assume I know what I know because of what I read in the paper or hear on the radio to justify the war. You are wrong. They say everyone's view of history begins when they were born. Well, I am fairly old, probably older than your parents. I knew we were going to war with radical Islam in the 70s, when George Bush was a drunken rich kid who refused to grow up and no one outside Arkansas had ever heard of Bill Clinton. I watched the Palestinians kidnap and murder Jewish athletes in Munich, watched as the PFLP and Abu Nidal and the PLO and Al Fatah and Hezbollah and HAMAS and the Islamic Brotherhood and Islamic Jihad rose in power. I read accounts of the kidnappings, bombings, torture and murder all over the world in US and foreign papers and in magazines, saw them on television. I watched as the shattered remains of 241 Marines were dragged from the wreckage of a barracks, and I watched as Druze and Maronites and Christians and moderate Western-leaning left-wing democratic Muslims were slaughtered and driven out of Lebanon, killed by car bombs and gunmen in the night. (All your young life Lebanon has been Hell on Earth, but when I was a child Lebanon was a beautiful country and a popular vacation spot.) I watched when Anwar Sedat made peace with Israel and was promptly assassinated, and I watched when the Palestinians attempted to overthrow King Hussein of Jordan with Syrian armed forces and was defeated by Jordan's army aided by Israel. I watched as the Iranian Revolutionaries overthrew the Shah (I even had an Iranian friend at the time, although he told people he was from Jordan) and held the American embassy staff hostage for over a year.

When I was in college I listened to the Arab and Iranian students - and there are lots in engineering school - as they spoke openly of their hatred for America, how the American dream was dead, how the new rising force in the world was Islam. I read the Islamic newspapers they left behind, those in English. Seldom was there a paper without at least one article or editorial about how Islam would unite and rise up to destroy the West, especially America. I read the Israeli papers as well. They didn't have any calls for overthrowing Islam. They did have obituaries on the Jews and Arabs murdered by terrorists. When you're 18 or 19 and reading stories about this pretty sixteen year-old who was stabbed to death while reading in the library and that 19 year-old student who was shot in the back while walking home from school and the nice Arab family of six who was burned to death in their home because they were suspected of giving information to the Israelis, you start to get the idea that these are not just human beings like you and me.

There wasn't much of an Internet back then, but there were boards which were connected to other countries. I lurked on many of those to see the posts by the radical Arab students, to see if they really expressed the same views to each other or if they were just trying to impress a country boy. The radicals were not at all shy about expressing their anti-American views even though they were studying in America.

One thing about college, you have access to a lot of foreign material, and I've always been a voracious reader. I devoured magazines and books from, and about, Muslim lands, trying to understand why this was going on. In the 70s I thought we were headed toward war with radical Islam; by the mid-80s I had no doubts. When the leaders of radical Islam repeatedly write stories about how Islam is going to rise up and destroy the West, sooner or later even the dullest student gets the point - IF they pay attention.

In the nearest town when I was growing up, there was a man who murdered a stranger, just walked up and beat his head in. No one really knew why, but he plead to manslaughter. There were the usual pleas for clemency because he'd had a hard childhood - which he had - and he served some time, I think maybe five years. (This was before victim impact statements.) A couple of years after he was released, he murdered two people for money. He plead to two counts of second degree murder and served 15 or 17 years I think. A year after he was released - I think I was in my early twenties - he murdered another man; if he ever said why, I never heard about it. But after he was sentenced to life without parole, the assistant district asked him, "Charles, why'd you do it? You knew you'd get caught." (I think his name was Charles; I could be wrong. It's been awhile.) Charles just shrugged and said "It's what I do." My point is that sometimes, people are just evil. All the people with faith in the murderer didn't stop him from murdering three more people after the first. He might possibly have been able to have his heart changed, possibly saving three people. he could definitely had his heart stopped or been imprisoned without parole, definitely saving three people. We are in a clash of civilizations, or of civilization and anti-civilization if your prefer. Just like Charles, perhaps the leaders of this movement can have their hearts softened. And just like Charles, lives are on the line. Only this time if we're wrong, Western civilization dies.

So feel free to have your own opinion based on your own (albeit limited) experience and people and sources you trust. But if you think George Bush convinced me of anything I didn't already know, you're being foolish.

 

[poleboy]

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, but I felt it was time for a little input. I have seen a great number of good posts and a few very moronic ones. I'll let you decide for yourself which are which.

werepossum:

Interesting read. Nothing you wrote in your last post strikes me as technically wrong or at least untrue, but one detail ticks me off. The example of the murderer Charles is applied to a large group of people and - at least to me - seems to suggest that every radical islamist is a generic evil sociopath.
It seems highly unlikely to me that a bunch of mentally deranged people would be able to work together efficiently in the way they do and even pose a threat to an entire country. If you write these people off as insane, you are underestimating them and that's just as dangerous as leaving them alone. They obviously believe in the cause they follow, and the first step in resolving these conflicts is, in my humble opinion, to try and understand why.

 

[werepossum]

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, but I felt it was time for a little input. I have seen a great number of good posts and a few very moronic ones. I'll let you decide for yourself which are which.

werepossum:

Interesting read. Nothing you wrote in your last post strikes me as technically wrong or at least untrue, but one detail ticks me off. The example of the murderer Charles is applied to a large group of people and - at least to me - seems to suggest that every radical islamist is a generic evil sociopath.
It seems highly unlikely to me that a bunch of mentally deranged people would be able to work together efficiently in the way they do and even pose a threat to an entire country. If you write these people off as insane, you are underestimating them and that's just as dangerous as leaving them alone. They obviously believe in the cause they follow, and the first step in resolving these conflicts is, in my humble opinion, to try and understand why.

Thanks for your input. Please note my comment that got Larenxis bent out of shape was that I'm all for understanding them in order to better kill them. Also, don't misunderstand me about Charles. He was not insane by any stretch of the imagination. He was perfectly capable of holding down a job or having a reasonably intelligent conversation, loved his family and had a reasonably good relationship with them (one of his daughters was trying to get him out of prison on a mercy furlough when he died), was pretty unremarkable unless you knew his history. But he was a true sociopath - other people's lives meant nothing to him. That is why I linked him to the terrorists, who by and large probably love their families but are sociopathic toward outsiders. I hadn't thought of him in years, but Larenxis's unwillingness to see a material difference between us and the terrorists made him pop into my head. Perhaps because that's the most direct interaction I've had with true, unrepentant evil.

I'm not even interested in vengeance against those terrorists who have voluntarily given up terrorism and its goals. (Jailhouse conversions are suspect in my book, though.) But for those actively engaged in terrorism against us - extermination. If that's a blot on my soul, so be it.

 

[poleboy]

The whole "us and them" analogy makes me uncomfortable, but it's an unavoidable part of war, I suppose. I just have a sneaking suspicion that no one is learning anything from these constant clashes in the Middle East.
After WWII, pretty much everyone agreed who was the aggressor and what happened. Today, it's been distanced enough that people can frequently makes jokes about it. But the conflict between Muslims and non-muslims is like a wound that someone just keeps poking at so it will never properly heal. Just look at the whole Israel/Palestine conflict. It's as fresh, bloody and great material for the news as it was fifty years ago.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Hmm, something I am curious about, has Canada ever done its own independent investigation into the events of 9/11? Would Canada ever consider use of assasins against Al-Queda targets baring us no good intentions?

seriously give that crap up right now, you can be proven wrong so easily. heck occam's razor will prove you wrong pretty easily

simply look at how much crap bush's gov has screwed up and NOT covered up and to pull off a job that large and not be caught is just stupid to even fathom.

as for using violence, sometimes it is necessary, you can try with some people to resolve things sanely and without violence but sometimes the one way to get them to listen to you is to resort to violence. if they understand their life is in danger, they will listen to you.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

if they understand their life is in danger, they will listen to you.

Unless they're willing to die for their cause.

I'm not really up to date with the war on terror, and Canada's role even less so, but to me ploughing into a country with thousands of troops, regardless of what motivated it, almost seems to prove the terrorists' point about the 'Evil West'.

Perhaps I'm just being naive though.

 

[Saskwach]

if they understand their life is in danger, they will listen to you.

Unless they're willing to die for their cause.

I'm not really up to date with the war on terror, and Canada's role even less so, but to me ploughing into a country with thousands of troops, regardless of what motivated it, almost seems to prove the terrorists' point about the 'Evil West'.

Perhaps I'm just being naive though.

Maybe. Would it be naive of me to agree with you?

Also, anyone supporting the war in Afghanistan- look at how much the country's drug trade has gone up since we marched in there.

Because if there's one thing I look at to judge the welfare of a people it's how much drugs they're selling.

 

[CanadianWolverine]

Hmm, something I am curious about, has Canada ever done its own independent investigation into the events of 9/11? Would Canada ever consider use of assasins against Al-Queda targets baring us no good intentions?

seriously give that crap up right now, you can be proven wrong so easily. heck occam's razor will prove you wrong pretty easily

simply look at how much crap bush's gov has screwed up and NOT covered up and to pull off a job that large and not be caught is just stupid to even fathom.

as for using violence, sometimes it is necessary, you can try with some people to resolve things sanely and without violence but sometimes the one way to get them to listen to you is to resort to violence. if they understand their life is in danger, they will listen to you.

I'm sorry if you misunderstand my intentions, my intentions are not to suggest any kind of conspiracy, only that since Canadians died that day too, did we have our own people look into it at all or did we do as happens with 'no fly lists', where Air Canada just does a copy/paste of the American FBI no fly list. Does that make sense now? Its a curiosity into how involved our own country gets into information gathering and dissemination, not an accusation.

As for the curiosity on the use of assasins, I am just wondering if Canada couldn't take a different approach then a full scale military one, but instead utilize Counter-Terrorism not just on a reactionary "rescue the hostages" kind of thing but in actively targeting active covert groups with bad intentions towards our constitution with our own covert moves that don't keep assasination off the list of options. Its not a stretch that if someone wants to assasinate you, you would want them to bite a bullet/bomb/etc first, right?

 

[Rolling Thunder]

According to a muslim friend of mine who just E-mailed me from Pakistan after I gave him the thread to this debate, he wishes to add these points.

-America has been interfering and fucking with the Muslim world since 1953. And they're tired of it. They're tired of being colonies of the United States of America, and they're tired of being treat like they're all a bunch of hypocritical, women-beating murderous scum.

My view on this: He has a point. Both with the whole 'American Imperialism' issue AND the portrayal of muslims as scum. In my opinion, doing so is rather like portraying America as a nation of Klansmen- its grotesquely innaccurate, unfair and blatant propaganda.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

When that country has gone from being an almost drug free zone (due to the harsh drug laws created by the Taliban) to being the source of 90% of the world's opium, it does make you wonder what the hell went wrong.

you mean going back to being that? that whole region, including cambodia and such, has always been bad for opium

 

[werepossum]

I'm not really up to date with the war on terror, and Canada's role even less so, but to me ploughing into a country with thousands of troops, regardless of what motivated it, almost seems to prove the terrorists' point about the 'Evil West'.

Since the Arab countries and Iran have often warred among themselves, invading one of them out to give them a warm fuzzy feeling toward us. "Look at that, they're just like us!"

On a more serious note - Fondant, ask your friend for me what exactly constitutes interfering and - let's just say interfering.
When we give Egypt three billion in aid every year, is that interfering?
When we give Jordan half a billion in aid every year, even though they opposed us in the first Gulf War, is that interfering?
When US Marines acted as human shields (and hundreds died) attempting to keep Druze and Sunni Muslims from being murdered, was that interfering?
When Western oil companies located and set up the Middle Eastern oil fields that have made their leaders fabulously wealthy, was that interfering?
When the USA trained and armed the mujahideen that they might fight to keep their country free, was that interfering?
When the USA made promises of military aid to Pakistan while the Soviets were in Afghanistan and looking seaward, was that interfering?
When the West joined together to force Saddam Hussein out of tiny Kuwait, was that interfering?
When the USA agreed to guarantee Saudi Arabia military aid in deterring an invasion from Iraq and repelling it if it came, was that interfering?
When the USA and other Western nations donated millions in aid to Pakistan after its big earthquake, was that interfering?
When the USA and other Western nations donated millions in aid to Indonesia after the tsunami, was that interfering?

Because it looks to me as though to many Muslims, "US interference" is whenever the West helps any group of Muslims except your group.

For the record, very few Americans think all Muslims are woman-beating, murderous scum. So why is it that when we condemn anyone who happens to be Muslim - even terrorists in Beslan shooting small children in the back as they run away - so many Muslims scream that we think all Muslims are woman-beating, murderous scum? When Tim McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma Federal Building, you didn't see a lot of Americans defending Neo-Nazis or complaining that he only did it because of Muslim oppression against Christians in Lebanon. Evil is evil, you either support it or fight it or watch American Idol. But you should never defend it just because it nominally shares your religion.

And I'm damned tired of this "American Imperialism" complaint. If you don't want our aid, stop taking it. If you don't want our movies and video games and music, don't buy them. These things don't just come in on their own, someone has to bring them in, and your quarrel should be with them, not us. Western demand for oil has made many Middle Eastern countries (or at least their leaders) very wealthy, but you can stop at any time - you simply have to say "no". Stop selling your oil to the West - it's your natural resource, and you can do with it as you will. We really only intervene when you try to say "no" for your neighbor. Because as long as your neighbor wants to sell us his oil, or lease us a base in his country, then we're partners. And we have a vested interest in making sure that our partner stays safe and prosperous.

I do realize that many Muslims want to make the entire Middle East free of non-Muslims. But remember that Israel and Jerusalem were Christian holy lands before there was Islam, and Jewish holy lands before there was Christianity.

We can divide up - no Christians, Jews, Wiccans, or animists in Muslim lands, no Muslims in Christian, Jewish, Wiccan, or animist lands (hey, fair is fair), but if we do that, then both sides lose the unique resources, natural and human, that the other side brings. And both sides are poorer.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

When Tim McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma Federal Building, you didn't see a lot of Americans defending Neo-Nazis or complaining that he only did it because of Muslim oppression against Christians in Lebanon.

yeah funny part about that is that no one thinks it was a conspiracy, cause they caught the white guy that did it

And I'm damned tired of this "American Imperialism" complaint. If you don't want our aid, stop taking it. If you don't want our movies and video games and music, don't buy them.

sadly they want all our money and loot but they want us to go away. this is true of anyone tho. i hear ppl complain about walmart, so i say "don't shop there" and yet they still do or complain about american idol but they still watch it

 

[Rolling Thunder]

I complain about American Idol and I don't watch it... But millions do... Can we kill these idiots and not have it be genocide? Well, technically, because we aren't discriminating on race, yes... Off to the Conquer the world thread to change my answer...

May I help?

 

[Fire Daemon]

So feel free to have your own opinion based on your own (albeit limited) experience and people and sources you trust. But if you think George Bush convinced me of anything I didn't already know, you're being foolish.

Yeah, I retract my statement. But I still think that judging countries based on the actions of a few is a tad bit narrowminded and very dangerous. I can understand why you might feel the way you do but claiming Muslims are not people is disgusting to say the least.

 

[Geoffrey42]

I can understand why you might feel the way you do but claiming Muslims are not people is disgusting to say the least.

I missed the part where he said that... could you point it out?