thaluikhain said:
Gorrath said:
I've no idea where you derive that claim from considering rapists are considered some of the lowest form of scum in western society.
In theory. In a vague, nebulous, sense, yes, if you ask someone "what do you think about rapists?", you'll get an answer like that.
In reality however, things tend to be rather different. Lots of people that think rapists are scum in the general hypothetical sense are still fans of people like Mike Tyson, Roman Polanski and so on. Hell, there were celebrity activists campaigning to end rape that would happily work with Polanski. He's had a long and successful career after raping a 14 year old. Likewise, I'm certain that if you asked the town of Steubenville what they thought about rape before the much publicised rape, more or less everyone, rapists included, would have said that rape was wrong, and meant it. When it actual mattered, however, things were very different.
In part I believe that it's because rapists are considered scum (at least nominally). Only, the logic goes, "he's not scum, therefore he's not a rapist" rather than "he's a rapist, therefore he's scum". People keep being shocked when it's not some scary looking bloke lurking in alleyways committing rapes against strangers, because that's the way it should happen. People can keep hating rapists, but denying each individual is a rapist for some reason or other.
Thanks for replying, I like hammering these things out. Firstly I'd say that there are lots (and i do mean LOTS) of people who think Polanski and Tyson are scum. You mention that there are people still willing to work with them but that doesn't demonstrate much. People still work with convicted and suspected criminals of all types; should rapists be a specific category of scum that no one will ever work with again? There are still people who work with OJ Simpson, and he's a murderer.
The issues in Steubenville aren't simply ones of rape apology. If those same boys had been caught doing almost any other criminal act, the same apologists would have come out in their defense. The whole reason Steubenville is so notable was because of the rape apology at work. If they had been caught stealing, this almost certainly would not have been a national drama, partially because theft is a much less serious crime and partially because no one would care about theft apology for football stars. I would argue that the whole reason why Steubenville got so much attention was because almost everyone not from there found the rape apology appalling. This suggests to me that the people doing the apologetics were entrenched in the larger cultural issue of athlete worship and that most people not engaged in that hero worship found the whole thing disgusting. That's not what I'd expect from rape culture, depending on how you define it, of course.
I like your last point though. It's one people certainly overlook. But again, that's something that happens with all sorts of crime. That nice looking guy who works at the homeless shelter? NO way he's a rapist, rapists are scum! Nor is he a thief, a bully, a drug addict ect. ect. None of the things you describe seem to be a particular facet of issues that relate to rape but rather most any criminality one could imagine. I do not say this to downplay those problems either, I promise. We do have significant cultural issues that need to be addressed, some of which people would consider rape culture. I find that addressing those issues under that banner breeds contempt for the fight against those issues and serves to trivialize them by likening sexual assault to jokes.
Gorrath said:
Bigotry based in fear is still bigotry no matter who you level it at.
Well, if you are going to phrase it like that, I guess so.
However, the reasons for that fear are very different. Women are afraid of men, in large part because they are repeatedly told to be, including by men. When rape prevention is more or less solely down to victims, when the victim more or less inevitably gets blamed, it boils down to saying that men are just inherently prone to rape, and nothing can, should or will be done. I don't see black people going round telling white people "You should be careful around us, we tend to be thugs and won't stop". [/quote]
As for the first part of your reply, you word this as if absolutely nothing is ever done about rape. There are some cultures where this actually is almost a reality and I would open to calling those, "cultures of rape." (See: Rape-as-justice in some places) Rape prevention is not solely down to victims. We accept all crime as inevitable to some degree and we fight that crime through our justice system (which has many problems, some of which are specific to rape and many of which are not.) However you can't claim that rape prevention is more or less solely down to the victims unless you say the same of just about all criminal activity. We incarcerate rapists just like we do murderers, thieves ect. You seem to be suggesting we just don't do anything ever about rape except blame the victim, as if it isn't even against the law or never gets prosecuted.
Lastly, I don't know how you make the last claim that you do. Take the phrase, "We tend to be thugs and won't stop," word it a bit more viciously, and you've got the title of a 100 or so rap songs. You have to be joking or else ignoring a good 3/4 of hip-hop culture to say what you did there. I am addicted to hip-hop and grew up with it as one of my favorite genres of music. There is simply no way you can say that it isn't full of exactly that message.
Gorrath said:
Can you demonstrate anything you say here? Can you show that victim blaming is more prevalent with rapes? Can you show that under normal circumstances, the ONLY response a rape victim gets is blame? I can't take those assertions seriously without some evidence to back them up; they seem like hyperbole.
Not off the top of my head, though lil devils X has been posting a lot of links around the issue. [/quote]
I read the links but none of them I've seen demonstrates these claims. They serve as terrible examples of what not-to-do, of what horrible, ignorant and misguided morons do and say. They don't demonstrate that victim blaming is more or less prevalent with rape than any other crime. They don't demonstrate that victim blaming is almost the only thing anyone does in cases of claimed rape. I more had a problem with your verbiage than your sentiment though.
Gorrath said:
Hell, if some guy gets shot down by a pier known for being a hotbed of drug activity, do you think there won't be a bunch of victim blaming going on? Questions about whether he was a user or seller? This demonstrates a cultural proclivity for victim blaming not rape culture specifically.
I disagree. Sure, I'd not be surprised if the victim was blamed in that case. But I'd also not be surprised if there were calls to do something about guns on the street, clamp downs on illegal gangs, drugs laws, questions about what the police are doing and so on. Normally they'd not get past victim blaming in cases of rape.
In both cases there might be victim blaming, but it'd likely be it and nothing else for rape. [/quote]
I don't see how you demonstrate this to be true. As I've posted numerous other times, the conversion rates for rape are on par with or slightly above other crimes. This in no way suggests that what you say here is true. If it was really true that we treated rape as reprehensible but claims of rape with victim blaming almost all of the time, you'd expect the conversion rate for rape claims to be disproportionately low compared to other crimes. Since this is not the case, by what measure do you make that claim? And I don't mean "point out an example of it happening," I mean, "provide some series of facts and figures which at least suggests what you're saying is backed by evidence."
Gorrath said:
If we live in an every kind of harassment culture, then I see a need to combat harassment
Certainly, but there are different forms of it, and they work in different ways.[/quote]
That I totally agree with you on. Sexual harassment is actually one of the few that gets very specific attention in how it is handled in any organization I've ever been a part of. Lots of other forms of harassment don't get near the same level of attention despite the fact that they can be just as damaging. If we really do so little about rape and its associated evils, why the emphasis on sexual harassment over almost any other kind?
In any case, I want to make it clear that I am not downplaying the seriousness of rape or other issues associated with it. I simply feel that the way rape culture is presented is not only not a useful way of dealing with these issues, it's actually harmful. It seems to pretend that certain cultural problems are in some way specific to rape when they are not and trivializes serious issues specific to rape/sexual assault/harassment by lumping them together with sex jokes and depictions in art. I don't think it's useful for enacting change, which I imagine is what we of the progressive mindset actually want.
As always, I appreciate your time and attention.