Lessons to teach men with absent fathers

[Vault101]

Nah, men do the same thing. They say they want someone kind, attractive and funny with stuff in common with them. When generally they just want someone they can trust and to love them back. As soppy as that sounds, it's true.

I thought the general answer (obviously by people whom I don't agree with) there was "men just want a nice pair of tits/ass" since those two things you said don't sound that much different

[quote/] Seriously girls! I can't stress how surprised and impressed guys are by girls that show some agency! Just don't ask him on a "date," ask him to hang out.[/quote]
why not asking him on a date? is that emasculating? or is asking to hang out freindzoning? why are men so confusssiiiiing!!?

alternatively though the "idea answer" might be something, cause you can ask people what their "ideal" is but generally its not always going to be helpful, or if you like me can't imagine any kind of "ideal" because its all superficial and I can't get attached to superficial daydreams

 

[VanQ]

Nah, men do the same thing. They say they want someone kind, attractive and funny with stuff in common with them. When generally they just want someone they can trust and to love them back. As soppy as that sounds, it's true.

I thought the general answer (obviously by people whom I don't agree with) there was "men just want a nice pair of tits/ass" since those two things you said don't sound that much different

[quote/] Seriously girls! I can't stress how surprised and impressed guys are by girls that show some agency! Just don't ask him on a "date," ask him to hang out.

why not asking him on a date? is that emasculating? or is asking to hang out freindzoning? why are men so confusssiiiiing!!?

alternatively though the "idea answer" might be something, cause you can ask people what their "ideal" is but generally its not always going to be helpful, or if you like me can't imagine any kind of "ideal" because its all superficial and I can't get attached to superficial daydreams[/quote]

Between two men, they'll give each other an answer along nice tits/ass. Men often discuss what they find physically attractive in a woman, I personally am an ass and legs man for example. I find long legs and a nice big butt (but not too big) exceptionally attractive. A lot of women actually don't realize a lot of men like big butts and thick thighs too, which is why the "does this make my butt look big?" question super awkward. I'm thinking "hell yeah girl it looks big and I love it" but I'm saying "Nah, you don't have a big butt." It's fucking hilarious when you think about it. If only we could be more honest with each other.

About not asking him on a "date" specifically is just because it's coming on too strong, I suppose. It's as simple as this, make it known that you want to spend time with him, just don't seem desperate about it. Women should play a little hard to get but if you play too hard to get he may give up/move on to someone else. Some men might find it emasculating, I suppose, as I said in my previous post men are the ones expected to make the first move. But any guy that feels emasculated by a woman with agency probably isn't much of a man anyway.

 

[L. Declis]

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Just going to read the title again... Advice for men without fathers? Men... First several comments complains it's not focusing on women enough or it's sexist. Way to derail what can be a nice, blokey exchange of information.

And now you can sit right back down. I'm also a bloke. Wanna see my fucking wifebeater? Hell, I'm another child of divorce. You wanna condescend me some more. Right back down.

Loonyyy seems appropriate. Notice I didn't say you're a women, only you're complaining about it being about men. Read before you accuse. Also, you seem touchy.

It don't change the fact that it started off sexist, and in the subsequent posts, got more so. And it's not just because of women. It is sexist towards women when you start talking about lack of a father figure and prostitution etc, but that wasn't what I was concerned with. It's sexist towards men, so pipe down.

Started off sexist? This isn't a thread saying "Hey, women are shit, right?" It's a thread that's about men, for men. Just like women can sit and exchange advice nicely, so can men. Not everything is a patriarchal attack on women. Stop watching Moviebob and seeing enemies everywhere.

Also, did I discuss prostitution? Hell, in my posts, I constantly say that women are equal but different. Partners. Depends on them, but provide for them.

Calm down. Also, one problem I have with you lot is that everyone except you should pipe down. Notice the "sexists" are willing to have a chat. You just want everyone who isn't you to shut up. You don't seem to be very nice, and while you've accused me of acting high and mighty, you've already told me to shut up twice.

This shit about lack of a father and gangs. As I said, the main problem I have with it is that it's asking for this stupid "blokey" exchange. Which is absolute fucking hogwash. To be a good man, you need to be a good person, and a man, whatever form that takes. And that can involve listening to anyone and everyone.

So then, maybe you should listen to me as well? Perhaps equally? Also, "fucking hogwash"? We've giving each other advice from a position of dealing with the same problems, and you want to just act the fool rather than let us all try to help each other? Not everything is a massive social justice issue, sometimes it's nice to just be nice to each other. Stop seeing enemies in every shadow.

There. Fucking done. You don't need anything extra to be a good man. As I said, kids need a stable, loving environment. It doesn't matter who their parents are, it matters that they have a safe environment where they are supported(And of course, kids with same-gendered parents are even more marginalized by this.

What is it with you and gay people? I'm not the one bringing homosexuality into this. I'm just trying to give advice to my fellow men dealing with this. Why so aggressive? I don't care if they are gay or not gay.

Oh well, guess they'll never fill that father shaped hole. News flash, that hole is put there when they rip a parent out. It ain't a feature).

For some, it is a feature. For most I've spoken to, it is a feature. By a few psychology journals, it's a feature. If a children has two gay mothers, great for him, but he still has no father figure. I'm sure he's loved and well-raised, but we're not discussing that.

Hell, you can't even get right that being attracted to women has nothing to do with being a man. What about gay men, or asexual men? What about men who are attracted to men? What about men who aren't domineering assholes, and can stand listening to what women think about their romantic partners? That's what happens when you come at it from this traditionalist, essentialist, retrograde view.

What?

What?

Seriously, what are you talking about? Since when was "Here are things that men need to know" turn into this massive homosexuality issue for you? I haven't even mentioned gay people. You're obsessed.

Also, are you calling me a domineering arsehole? Why do you think that? What happened to this respect? What happened to listening to everyone? For someone who says he is better than I and I should sit down and listen, you're being very rude and very cruel. I don't think you're being a very good role model.

You get it all wrong. It doesn't help that your advice there is also sexist hogwash. Although this time you are just shitting on women, so I guess, as one bloke to another, I guess we can give you a pass.

Shitting on women? I say my mother was amazing, I say that women are equal and our partners, and we should depend on them as much as we should provide for them, and this is shitting on women? For suggesting there is a difference between men and women?

Do you understand this is why people don't like people like you who attack them for every single imagined slight? You've blown this out of proportion and you seem unstable.

Sexist hogwash? Not listening, not discussing.

We'll go bond over a shared appreciation of a male activity. How about gay sex. That tends to have fewer women in it. (Sarcasm for those lacking in subtlety).

I like how you manage to call me homophobic and then label homosexual as an attack on me in the same segment. Really shows a massive lack of awareness.

I think you need to calm down and reread both my and your posts, and perhaps consider what I was saying and the motive behind it, and whether or not I was attacking women or simply trying to help my fellow man, and whether or not your response was justified. I shan't report you, I think you simply read things into my response which are not there, and perhaps you were tired, drunk or had a bad day.

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I have become Snip, the destroyer of threads

Nah, men do the same thing. They say they want someone kind, attractive and funny with stuff in common with them. When generally they just want someone they can trust and to love them back. As soppy as that sounds, it's true.

Everyone always gives an "ideal" answer. Most women say and think they want to date someone taller than them, when really a short guy could hold them confidently, make them feel gorgeous and wanted and it'd blow her off her feet. The same goes for guys, they all think that they should be making the first move, because they're expected to and generally have to, but a girl that has some agency and asks out a guy will succeed nearly 100% of the time if he doesn't already have his eyes on someone else. Seriously girls! I can't stress how surprised and impressed guys are by girls that show some agency! Just don't ask him on a "date," ask him to hang out.

The thing is, we all think what we know ourselves and what we want better than anyone else but that's almost always a product of our culture. I remember reading an article by a female dating coach once where people all said they'd prefer "authentic italian pasta sauce" but when the authentic, watery kind of sauce and a store shelf pre-jarred sauce were presented to them blindly, every person that answered "authentic" said they preferred the less watery sauce.

There was a Jimquisition on the sauce thing, but I'm glad you brought it up because I was going to.

Basically, VanQ answered it for me; women (and men) will give an idealised version, but will present it in a confused and disjointed manner.

I'd also say that the friendzone phenomena is a product of men having no idea of how to ask a lass out because of rom-coms and women saying "I want him to be my friend first, and men who don't give up, that's romantic, and he'll always be there for me in the rain".

Now, the lessons behind that, loyalty, mutual respect, friendship, self-confidence, they are there, but it's hidden away behind the text and guys simply take that as "Never accept no for an answer, keep hanging around her and eventually she'll fall in love, always give up your self-respect for her and she'll love you for being so self-sacrificing" which screws with men's head.

Men really do need it to be put simply; "Don't stink, dress well, be nice, enjoy yourself, have some pride, be firm but not forceful, etc".

So what I am saying is I blame Hugh Grant and Colin Firth.

And VanQ is right, the reason I am marrying my fiancée is because she is smart, hard working, ambitious, intelligent, makes me laugh and most of all, I was in a long-distance relationship for two years and I never doubted her loyalty for a second. I love and trust her utterly, and I know I can put my life into her hands with no worry.

 

[Vault101]

Also, did I discuss prostitution? Hell, in my posts, I constantly say that women are equal but different. Partners. Depends on them, but provide for them.
.

you know that usually means an affirmation of typical roles/stereotypes and that often doesn't come out in our favour (or mens favour in some cases either)

 

[L. Declis]

Also, did I discuss prostitution? Hell, in my posts, I constantly say that women are equal but different. Partners. Depends on them, but provide for them.
.

you know that usually means an affirmation of typical roles/stereotypes and that often doesn't come out in our favour (or mens favour in some cases either)

That's a fair point.

And I hate to slip into anecdote, but I am not the same as my fiancée. For example, I am the better cook and I am very picky about the kitchen equipment, so we let me handle the cooking. I am terrible with money, but she is great with it, so she handles that and I don't give a damn about the idea of the man running the house. We play to our strengths, if you will.

Changes from couple to couple, but as long as everyone is happy and everything is accounted for, I don't care.

I don't think gender roles are inherently bad, either. Don't get me wrong, as with anything, taken to the extreme it is a very bad thing (anything to the extreme is bad), but it does help provide a "rough guideline", if you will, which you can then alter or change to taste. Yes, it has pluses and minuses, but everything in life comes with a downside and you have to decide which ones are worth the downside.

E.g. if you're the male provider, it sucks that you're under the pressure, you can't get it wrong, divorce will screw you, people judge you by your paycheck.

But the upside is your ego and pride get a nice feeding, you know your family is taken care of, your family is taken care of, and you can treat your family nicely and know it is all worth it.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

Also, did I discuss prostitution? Hell, in my posts, I constantly say that women are equal but different. Partners. Depends on them, but provide for them.
.

you know that usually means an affirmation of typical roles/stereotypes and that often doesn't come out in our favour (or mens favour in some cases either)

I wouldn't say exercising a stereotype is harmful so much as asserting that stereotype should be the only way a particular gender should act...or only something that gender should do are.

 

[Erttheking]

Don't take offense to this, but I always hated the concept of "being a man". I don't want to "be a man" I want to be a god damn human being.

We as a society are way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are.

 

[cleric of the order]

Started off sexist? This isn't a thread saying "Hey, women are shit, right?" It's a thread that's about men, for men. Just like women can sit and exchange advice nicely, so can men. Not everything is a patriarchal attack on women. Stop watching Moviebob and seeing enemies everywhere.

Also, did I discuss prostitution? Hell, in my posts, I constantly say that women are equal but different. Partners. Depends on them, but provide for them.

Calm down. Also, one problem I have with you lot is that everyone except you should pipe down. Notice the "sexists" are willing to have a chat. You just want everyone who isn't you to shut up. You don't seem to be very nice, and while you've accused me of acting high and mighty, you've already told me to shut up twice.

You sir are a good man.

I am really kinda sick.
I mean, i came in here hoping for a discussion in the matter itself.
This...means a lot to me.
And I'm really surprised .. well not that surprised but certainly saddened by it.
This sort of shit really pisses me off. no fuck that.
This Should be a conversation for men and boys that have lacked a good father figure.
I personally Lack a good father figure through the drugs, the violence and the like.
I mean he tried to be a good father i think. Well no but well.
Shit. Fatherly wisdom is necessary, even from a drug addled violent brute like my father some good information can come.
You learn about you, the person that has sired you, the linage you are a part of you culture on his side.
To this day I really wish I knew more about Jamaica and our relatives in Indian. I wish I knew about my dad at all really, the things other then the violence, the drugs and the sleaze.
But If i can tell anyone anything.
Don't be a Hamlet, there are many father figures you can find in your life.
They might not be as close or intimate but they can be there, there can be kind men.
There can be humanity.
For a long time, I really saw no value in the masculine, in the male at all because of my relationship with my father.
And for that I am really sad.
I have to wonder how many others grow up with baggage like this.
Hating themselves, hating parts of themselves because they were in truth unwanted... I know at least I was.
Well with that saying I guess I could give some of the few good pieces of advice my dad has given me.

1. always check the bathrooms of a restaurant before eating there, if they can't even keep a clean bathroom....
2. If someones angry, don't let their anger rub off on you. if you can resist it it might make their day better.
3. a lewd retelling of they stumble who run fast.
4. addiction is a bad thing, seriously stay out of drugs of any kind, including alchyhal (personal experiences)
5. hopefully how to be a better father.
>be reasonable, but stern. Keep an eye out for bad behavior and stop it. spend some time with your kids, they just like to spend time with you, they fucking love you unconditionally. Don't every fucking make a appointment every time you meet your kids, and you are always responsible for your kids, they are your wards. IF something goes wrong then it's your responsibility and fault

 

[Erttheking]

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Your list, in order.

My mother is the breadwinner in my family, easily makes more than three times my dad. Men are not automatically required to be the providers, nor is there any reason there should be.

Uh no I think I will. Women tend to know what women want in men a lot more than men do. I have seen men try and talk about what women want, and the sheer ignorance of it made me want to gouge my eyes out. Also call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure not having a father doesn't by default lead to confidence issues. I mean Christ, I have a dad and I have massive confidence issues. The presence of a male role model in my family did absolute jack to stop that.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger? As much as I like to joke about it when I write, pain does NOT build character. And I...just what the hell are you trying to get at in this sentence? Born of the best-WHAT!? You know, the majority of the human race didn't fight in wars, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. And you have no way of knowing that after their displays of masculinity that they weren't absolutely awful fathers.

You make an awful lot of assumptions here. I mean, a father is not something a person absolutely positively NEEDS to have in their life.

This is a stereotype about being a man that never makes me fail to make me grind my teeth in rage. Get used to it? No. Just no. I'm not gonna bottle up all my pain just because it's inconvenient for someone else. Complacency towards a problem never, and I mean NEVER solved a thing. "Get used to it" is the kind of thing that if I had told to me when I was suffering with depression in high school, it would've ended with me swinging from the roof of my room. It is the worse advice you can ever give. Period.

That just sounds like a stereotype. Firm but gentle? What if they're just apathetic?

What if they think manly things are stupid? What if they don't want to hang

No offense, but so many of the things that you say men should do are borderline stereotypical, when they're not flat out stereotypical. Your mother will not understand what's wrong with you? My mother happens to understand exactly what is wrong with me thank you very much, and I would very much appreciate it if you retracted such a blatant falsehood. In our genes? Yeah citation needed. I very much prefer my alone time to "guy" time. And I end up talking with my one very close female friend more than most guys my age. And she understands me and I understand her. Men are not from Mars and women are not from Venus. We are all human beings and there is no trick to understanding each other.

I'm honestly offended. I am offended as a man that you think that this is what I should be doing and what all other men should be doing. This advice, whether it be for a person without a father or not, is just horrifically stereotypical, based more on tradition than hard fact.

Let them be who THEY want to be.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Between two men, they'll give each other an answer along nice tits/ass. Men often discuss what they find physically attractive in a woman, I personally am an ass and legs man for example. I find long legs and a nice big butt (but not too big) exceptionally attractive. A lot of women actually don't realize a lot of men like big butts and thick thighs too, which is why the "does this make my butt look big?" question super awkward. I'm thinking "hell yeah girl it looks big and I love it" but I'm saying "Nah, you don't have a big butt." It's fucking hilarious when you think about it. If only we could be more honest with each other.

About not asking him on a "date" specifically is just because it's coming on too strong, I suppose. It's as simple as this, make it known that you want to spend time with him, just don't seem desperate about it. Women should play a little hard to get but if you play too hard to get he may give up/move on to someone else. Some men might find it emasculating, I suppose, as I said in my previous post men are the ones expected to make the first move. But any guy that feels emasculated by a woman with agency probably isn't much of a man anyway.

I don't think it's as universal as all that. However, I will say that I find it odd how many women don't believe me when I say that most men that I've talked to say they actually prefer some 'meat' as opposed to 20lbs underweight supermodels.

Anyway, I'm not so sure that second bit of advice is all that good. This is just a personal thing, but I don't want a woman who plays hard to get. I want one who is willing to say what she wants, when she wants. If that happened to be "I like you, let's go on a date." then that'd be great. But if she isn't overt about it (IE suggesting hanging out as opposed to a 'real' date), then I would assume that she isn't interested in that way and that's fine too. But being up front about things is a really undervalued skill.

 

[chuckman1]

Between two men, they'll give each other an answer along nice tits/ass. Men often discuss what they find physically attractive in a woman, I personally am an ass and legs man for example. I find long legs and a nice big butt (but not too big) exceptionally attractive. A lot of women actually don't realize a lot of men like big butts and thick thighs too, which is why the "does this make my butt look big?" question super awkward. I'm thinking "hell yeah girl it looks big and I love it" but I'm saying "Nah, you don't have a big butt." It's fucking hilarious when you think about it. If only we could be more honest with each other.

About not asking him on a "date" specifically is just because it's coming on too strong, I suppose. It's as simple as this, make it known that you want to spend time with him, just don't seem desperate about it. Women should play a little hard to get but if you play too hard to get he may give up/move on to someone else. Some men might find it emasculating, I suppose, as I said in my previous post men are the ones expected to make the first move. But any guy that feels emasculated by a woman with agency probably isn't much of a man anyway.

I don't think it's as universal as all that. However, I will say that I find it odd how many women don't believe me when I say that most men that I've talked to say they actually prefer some 'meat' as opposed to 20lbs underweight supermodels.

Anyway, I'm not so sure that second bit of advice is all that good. This is just a personal thing, but I don't want a woman who plays hard to get. I want one who is willing to say what she wants, when she wants. If that happened to be "I like you, let's go on a date." then that'd be great. But if she isn't overt about it (IE suggesting hanging out as opposed to a 'real' date), then I would assume that she isn't interested in that way and that's fine too. But being up front about things is a really undervalued skill.

I agree if a girl asks me out on a date even if I hadn't planned on asking her I will have more respect for the fact that she stated her intentions, and probably give her a chance. I would rather a girl ask me out than me ask her out. But it's probably best to know the guy a bit first. If you don't know their name, get that first.

 

[Hagi]

I don't think having a father, or a mother for that matter, is necessary.

I do think it's important for a child to have both strong male and female role models in their direct environment, a role traditionally filled by the father and mother (not nearly always successfully). As I do believe our experiences as a child have a strong influence on our perceptions on gender and related matters (certainly not the only influence though).

There's plenty of opportunity for that role to be filled by grandparents, family friends, teachers etc. though.

 

[wulf3n]

We as a society are way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are.

Let them be who THEY want to be.

You don't see the hypocrisy in this?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Personally, I don't see why having a father matters, so long as there is a stable household with time for the kids. If you've got uncles, or two mothers, or one mother that isn't working all the time. I think there is too much concern over traditional families.

I think you'll need government intervention to make this "stable household".

Why? Why does someone who isn't the biological father need government intervention? Does this apply to adoptive fathers?

Is it a government priority to socially disenfranchise men?

You seem to be assuming that the traditional family is vital for men. Worse, that men had no social justification without it.

I've had to tell my boy many times that girls are different and delicate. Behave.

Yeah, I think that's the problem there.

 

[draigan]

I had a "Disney Land Dad" (as my Mum liked to call him) where I would go over to his house every two weeks and do nothing but fun stuff because parenting is hard.

Luckily, my Mum was incredibly capable and handled it like a champ. All the "Dad" stuff (like respecting women, don't hit unless you are forced to defend yourself, sportsmanship, how to wrestle a live grizzly bear; the usual) were handled by her.

Honestly, the only thing that she didn't really handle that would have been VERY nice to have the first time was how to (properly) shave. My poor...poor face

hahahaha

I know what that's like my first time shaving my mum handed me a bar of soap and a razor and then walked out. I learned how not to shave that day

 

[Phasmal]

The thing is, we all think what we know ourselves and what we want better than anyone else but that's almost always a product of our culture. I remember reading an article by a female dating coach once where people all said they'd prefer "authentic italian pasta sauce" but when the authentic, watery kind of sauce and a store shelf pre-jarred sauce were presented to them blindly, every person that answered "authentic" said they preferred the less watery sauce.

I guess the problem I have with this is that a guy who wanted to go out with me a couple of years back internalised it as `women don't know what they want, so if they tell you what they want, they're wrong`.
He decided that what I wanted was for someone to open doors for me, take things out of my hands to carry them for me, someone to quote poetry at me and treat me like the delicate flower I am.

Spoiler: It didn't go well

I guess generalising too much when giving dating advice is a bad idea.

 

[San Martin]

I think people have been too quick to argue with the idea behind this thread. I'm not convinced that the father's traditional 'masculine' role is particularly important or valuable, but some people do, and they should be allowed to have a discussion about it.

I'm as sick as the next guy of conversations about women being hijacked by anti-feminists, but I don't think derailing this thread simply because it's decidedly un-feminist is a fair response.

Basically, if you disagree with the premise of the thread, isn't the polite thing just to stay out of it?

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

We as a society are way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are.

Let them be who THEY want to be.

You don't see the hypocrisy in this?

Where's the hypocrisy?

 

[someonehairy-ish]

[quote/] Seriously girls! I can't stress how surprised and impressed guys are by girls that show some agency! Just don't ask him on a "date," ask him to hang out.

why not asking him on a date? is that emasculating? or is asking to hang out freindzoning? why are men so confusssiiiiing!!?[/quote]

It's not very complicated. 'Dating' implies spending time, money and effort that we'd probably enjoy more just chilling with you on a sofa, telling stories and showing each other stupid youtube stuff and playing xbox and then maybe getting a takeaway or something.

Plus with a date there's pressure, and you generally don't know the other person that well so you have to play this stupid guessing game. 'Would she like the cinema or is that lame? Yeah it's kinda lame... okay. What restaurants are any good around here? There's a Lebanese place. Will that come across as something different and nice or just strange?' Etc. If we're going to take you somewhere nice, we'd rather know you well enough to know you'll appreciate it.

E.g. if you're the male provider, it sucks that you're under the pressure, you can't get it wrong, divorce will screw you, people judge you by your paycheck.

But the upside is your ego and pride get a nice feeding, you know your family is taken care of, your family is taken care of, and you can treat your family nicely and know it is all worth it.

I don't know about that. Something like 60% of marriages end in a divorce now, in which case the family courts will almost certainly screw you (the man), and you'll get to watch your ex-partner drive away with your kids, most of your money, and your balls to put on the wall as a trophy. I can't really imagine anything making all of that feel 'worth it'.

I'm as sick as the next guy of conversations about women being hijacked by anti-feminists, but I don't think derailing this thread simply because it's decidedly un-feminist is a fair response.

I'm curious. Why's it un-feminist?

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm as sick as the next guy of conversations about women being hijacked by anti-feminists, but I don't think derailing this thread simply because it's decidedly un-feminist is a fair response.

I'm curious. Why's it un-feminist?

Well, it is based on the idea that there is something inherently male about being a father, that a woman can't do.