Lessons to teach men with absent fathers

[wulf3n]

Oh I'm so sorry! I didn't see the part in his first post where he said he didn't like them being who they want to be!

In fact I still don't and see him being displeased with them acting as if those things are vital when they aren't. It's almost as if you substituted "being who they want to be with "way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are"

Is it not a criticism of their choice of who they want to be?

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

So a thread about giving advice to men without fathers turns into yet another debate about women and sexuality. Because there isn't enough of these fucking threads on this site. At this point, I'm genuinely curious if people are upset this conversation can happen at all.

Well duh, if you let men have conversations about men with other men, that's how the patriarchy gets in. And then we'd all be fucked. Therefore every conversation has to be policed by feminists, for all our sakes.

For the sake of clarity, I do largely agree with the views of this site. However, seeing the argument permeate almost literally every discussion gets very exhausting.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh I'm so sorry! I didn't see the part in his first post where he said he didn't like them being who they want to be!

In fact I still don't and see him being displeased with them acting as if those things are vital when they aren't. It's almost as if you substituted "being who they want to be with "way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are"

Is it not a criticism of their choice of who they want to be?

Using the least bit of awareness about the complaints concerning gender roles in society: No

 

[wulf3n]

Oh I'm so sorry! I didn't see the part in his first post where he said he didn't like them being who they want to be!

In fact I still don't and see him being displeased with them acting as if those things are vital when they aren't. It's almost as if you substituted "being who they want to be with "way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are"

Is it not a criticism of their choice of who they want to be?

Using the least bit of awareness about the complaints concerning gender roles in society: No

Some people choose to follow the gender roles. How is saying they're "too attached" to something they freely chose not a criticism.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh I'm so sorry! I didn't see the part in his first post where he said he didn't like them being who they want to be!

In fact I still don't and see him being displeased with them acting as if those things are vital when they aren't. It's almost as if you substituted "being who they want to be with "way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are"

Is it not a criticism of their choice of who they want to be?

Using the least bit of awareness about the complaints concerning gender roles in society: No

Some people choose to follow the gender roles. How is saying they're "too attached" to something they freely chose not a criticism.

Please show me where he said choosing to follow them means they're overly attached.

Hint: He never specified what behavior qualified as overly attached. You're assuming it.

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

We as a society are way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are.

Let them be who THEY want to be.

You don't see the hypocrisy in this?

Where's the hypocrisy?

The first post criticizes people for being who they want to be. The Second says let people be who they want to be.

No. The first sentence merely says about society being too attached to roles. That's it. It says nothing about individuals wanting to be these roles.

The two sentences are from two different posts and different contexts. Your claim is flimsy at best.

 

[happyninja42]

It's much better to have one stable parent than two unstable ones who hate each other, in my opinion.
`Staying together for the kids` is a terrible idea for all involved.

Agreed. My parents stayed together for years after they really should have divorced, and fought all the time. I used to lock myself in my room and block them out because of it, and for a very short time (thankfully), took up self-cutting to try and alleviate my stress over the situation. Between my brother being clinically insane and a drug addict, my dad being a narccisitic control freak, and my mom putting up with it to try and keep the family together, I was a basket case. And yet they all used to tell me how I was the one they loved, and how they relied on me for support. And I'm sitting there, a teenager, having my own issues compounded with theirs, having the emotional burden of being the one to keep them from losing it? Yeah, it wasn't a fun time.

As for the whole dad thing, I agree that having 2 parents (of whatever gender combination) isn't as important as having a comfortable, happy homelife. If it had just been me and my mom, I'm sure thing would've been a lot better during my late teens/early 20's. My mom and I never had issues, and still don't. I haven't spoken to my father in years, and glad for it.

 

[JoJo]

At this stage boys imitate the men around them to learn how to be a man, .

and what does it mean to actually be a man?

It can mean anything, look at this thread and you'll find more than fifty definitions here alone. This is why it's crucial for boys to have a positive male influence who can teach them to be a responsible man, one who isn't violent towards their spouses or children and is generally decent. That picture of masculinity is one you want them to learn, rather than say a swaggering 'Jack the Lad' who's never done a honest day's work in his life and only thinks about getting laid easy.

Now, clearly some people never get a good role-model and still make it, others have a great start and fall by the wayside for various reasons. It's about shifting in the odds in the kid's direction, nothing is foolproof, you have to do your best and hope it works.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

At this stage boys imitate the men around them to learn how to be a man, .

and what does it mean to actually be a man?

It can mean anything, look at this thread and you'll find more than fifty definitions here alone. This is why it's crucial for boys to have a positive male influence who can teach them to be a responsible man, one who isn't violent towards their spouses or children and is generally decent. That picture of masculinity is one you want them to learn, rather than say a swaggering 'Jack the Lad' who's never done a honest day's work in his life and only thinks about getting laid easy.

Now, clearly some people never get a good role-model and still make it, others have a great start and fall by the wayside for various reasons. It's about shifting in the odds in the kid's direction, nothing is foolproof, you have to do your best and hope it works.

What makes this masculinity and not just being a good person regardless of gender? Women should be responsible and not.violent towards spouse or children either.

 

[Erttheking]

At this stage boys imitate the men around them to learn how to be a man, .

and what does it mean to actually be a man?

It can mean anything, look at this thread and you'll find more than fifty definitions here alone. This is why it's crucial for boys to have a positive male influence who can teach them to be a responsible man, one who isn't violent towards their spouses or children and is generally decent. That picture of masculinity is one you want them to learn, rather than say a swaggering 'Jack the Lad' who's never done a honest day's work in his life and only thinks about getting laid easy.

Now, clearly some people never get a good role-model and still make it, others have a great start and fall by the wayside for various reasons. It's about shifting in the odds in the kid's direction, nothing is foolproof, you have to do your best and hope it works.

Look, this is something that's been bugging me for the entire thread and it's the reason I think it's going downhill...why does a man need to have a male role model? It really does seem to be pushing that old mindset that the only way a family can function properly is with a traditional nuclear family, one dad, one mom. Kids raised by lesbian couples and single mothers seem to turn out all right. I'm just confused, why does a male need a male role model?

Then again I probably shouldn't talk because every time someone tells me to "be a man" I feel the urge to tell them to go fuck themselves with a cactus. Man only means one of two things to me. A male who has reached adulthood and emotional maturity, and a person who identifies as the male gender. That's all it means to me. Everything else just seems...kind of pointless. People keep saying "men have to be X" "Men have to be Y" and it just baffles me. Why do we have to march in gridlock? Why can't we just be who we are? I get that some people really need role models in life, especially in media, but really the overall implication I'm getting from this thread is that people really need someone specifically male in their day to day life. Which just kind of baffles me.

I just don't get it.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

y'know i'm sitting here wondering where bear gays fall in all of this...

if "there's no such thing as masculinity"...

they'd sure as hell raise an eyebrow to that.

as would most gay men....or do we somehow assume this is "feminine" ?

its funny, but lots of people talk like they know virtually nothing about sexuality outside of laying adamant claim to supremely important right to "trans"...

lack of actual life experience ? maybe one or two emperorhypno/soloman/deepslutpuppy/sissymaker videos too many ?...

who knows.

[small]yes i went there.[/small]

baffles me sometimes.

mostly because these types of views are not, actually, common in the gay community where you'd think they might be.
hell they even employ "gender roles" (bottoms & tops/butch & fems).

maybe that's why i never really see anyone around her that claims any sexuality bar "straight" (hur, hur) or "trans".

You could always make your own argument instead of trying to try to suggest gays agree with you. It doesn't even matter if its true really. Wow some gay people may have a certain opinion. Doesn't make it correct. This is just you saying "Well I think x minority agrees with me!" Like, so?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

not so much some people as much as every gay person scene or non-scene ive ever met.
which considering i spent most of my 20s frequenting gay clubs is more than a few.
that and my brother is gay...and will be marrying a bear gay shortly..and i'm not entirely "straight"...but hey, nice ass-umption.

What assumption? Look again, never said you didn't know gay people. I do too.

You do realize knowing gay people or even being gay wouldn't make you some sort of spokesperson or make it matter even if a lot of gays even did hold that opinion, right?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

most gay people find this "choose your own sexuality"/"pure nurture" narrative type stuff highly offensive.

Which has nothing to do with anything I've seen in the topic

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

i never claimed to be a spokesperson for anyone. i just lean towards the empirical rather than theory.

Hahaha??? Yeah you're not empirical at all. "I met gay people and they think like I do so it isn't just some! Even if you might have meant some who don't!"

And nah you acted as if you were speaking for the gay community in general.

 

[JoJo]

At this stage boys imitate the men around them to learn how to be a man, .

and what does it mean to actually be a man?

It can mean anything, look at this thread and you'll find more than fifty definitions here alone. This is why it's crucial for boys to have a positive male influence who can teach them to be a responsible man, one who isn't violent towards their spouses or children and is generally decent. That picture of masculinity is one you want them to learn, rather than say a swaggering 'Jack the Lad' who's never done a honest day's work in his life and only thinks about getting laid easy.

Now, clearly some people never get a good role-model and still make it, others have a great start and fall by the wayside for various reasons. It's about shifting in the odds in the kid's direction, nothing is foolproof, you have to do your best and hope it works.

Look, this is something that's been bugging me for the entire thread and it's the reason I think it's going downhill...why does a man need to have a male role model? It really does seem to be pushing that old mindset that the only way a family can function properly is with a traditional nuclear family, one dad, one mom. Kids raised by lesbian couples and single mothers seem to turn out all right. I'm just confused, why does a male need a male role model?

Then again I probably shouldn't talk because every time someone tells me to "be a man" I feel the urge to tell them to go fuck themselves with a cactus. Man only means one of two things to me. A male who has reached adulthood and emotional maturity, and a person who identifies as the male gender. That's all it means to me. Everything else just seems...kind of pointless. People keep saying "men have to be X" "Men have to be Y" and it just baffles me. Why do we have to march in gridlock? Why can't we just be who we are? I get that some people really need role models in life, especially in media, but really the overall implication I'm getting from this thread is that people really need someone specifically male in their day to day life. Which just kind of baffles me.

I just don't get it.

Have you read my initial reply to Vault on the second page? Give it a try if you haven't, it might be a little abbreviated but I tried to give a short summary of some of the psychology I've studied behind why male role models are important for boys. Let me know what you think.

maybe that's why i never really see anyone around her that claims any sexuality bar "straight" (hur, hur) or "trans".

IDK, I've seen a fair number of us around here, especially on the bisexual side, just no real reason to be shouting from the rooftops about it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Hm. certainly interesting. Not sure if I agree with it 100% but it's interesting.

Do you have any sources about that extra developmental stage?