Lessons to teach men with absent fathers

[ToastiestZombie]

I feel like I'm the only fatherless person here who's father wasn't a drunk wife-beater, addicted wife-beater or a deserter; and personally, I find all this "fathers aren't needed" bullshit highly offensive. No, I didn't become a drug-dealing gang member but having experienced what having a good, "masculine" father is like and then having that experience taken away mid-childhood gives you a perspective that not all that many have.

My point is, it's very easy to say "you don't need a dad" and "masculinity is wrong/non-existent" if you've lived in either a traditional family unit or an extremely broken family unit your whole lives.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

i never claimed to be a spokesperson for anyone. i just lean towards the empirical rather than theory.

Hahaha??? Yeah you're not empirical at all. "I met gay people and they think like I do so it isn't just some! Even if you might have meant some who don't!"

this assumes a predisposition of opinion...for some reason...and that i did not actually observe the evidence i encountered to support this belief.

i mean you can say "you didn't see that" all you want.

i know what i saw.

you don't.

where does that leave us hmm ?

It leaves me watching you wrestling a straw man. Never said you didn't encounter it. I doubt your experience has to be representative, but I guess in your head you mangle it for an easy strawman.

And nah you acted as if you were speaking for the gay community in general.

nope.

Feel free to explain why you drag them in otherwise then

Which has nothing to do with anything I've seen in the topic

i also lean towards the holistic.

but fell free to ignore my seemingly irrelevant musings.

Holistic doesn't mean fighting a position that no one else here expressed.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I feel like I'm the only fatherless person here who's father wasn't a drunk wife-beater, addicted wife-beater or a deserter; and personally, I find all this "fathers aren't needed" bullshit highly offensive. No, I didn't become a drug-dealing gang member but having experienced what having a good, "masculine" father is like and then having that experience taken away mid-childhood gives you a perspective that not all that many have.

My point is, it's very easy to say "you don't need a dad" and "masculinity is wrong/non-existent" if you've lived in either a traditional family unit or an extremely broken family unit your whole lives.

Btw, that's the kind of 'check your privilege' thing people usually hate. Just yelling at people for disagreeing with your opinion and all you have supporting your opinion is yourself.

Your experience doesn't prove masculinity is anything more than social norms or that people need a dad. Its just being used as an unsuccessful attempt to shame.

 

[Kevlar Eater]

My father was mostly absent, primarily due to him being a narcotics user/dealer, a philanderer that took the phrase "Be fruitful and multiply" to its logical extreme and the times that he was around, made me eat shellfish when I explicitly told him I was allergic to it and tried to buy my and my siblings' love with expensive things. We knew he was an douche, but thank Lyssa that we never had to see him naked, unlike my mother (I occasionally use that joke on her, makes her cringe every time). Of course, that doesn't mean that he didn't leave a few nuggets of advice to those willing to listen, but undoubtedly won't apply to all:

- If someone looks or sounds like bad news, they just might be.
- If your lick her (I'm assuming 'down south'), she will love you *gag*
- Make sure to have a clear space to whip your rod out, you don't wanna smack someone in the face and get your hook in their eye (fishing advice)
- Listening to a woman speak while on a date is good, a conversation is better.
- Housework is still work, no matter the gender.

Even though there is an ever decreasing amount of men in their childrens' lives, no thanks to courts typically favoring the woman over the man no matter the circumstance (in US courts), debtors' prison, the whole "strong woman don't need no man" attitude (good. Stay single or go lesbian, I won't miss you), the risk of paying for and raising another man's child due to the woman's promiscuous behavior, a negative predisposition of males in general, etc., I still believe that more men should be involved in their childrens' lives. The parents staying together or seeing each other is not necessary, but outright denying the child the opportunity to see their father (or mother), unless they're proven to be a danger to the child(ren) in question, is messed up.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

I feel like I'm the only fatherless person here who's father wasn't a drunk wife-beater, addicted wife-beater or a deserter; and personally, I find all this "fathers aren't needed" bullshit highly offensive. No, I didn't become a drug-dealing gang member but having experienced what having a good, "masculine" father is like and then having that experience taken away mid-childhood gives you a perspective that not all that many have.

My point is, it's very easy to say "you don't need a dad" and "masculinity is wrong/non-existent" if you've lived in either a traditional family unit or an extremely broken family unit your whole lives.

Btw, that's the kind of 'check your privilege' thing people usually hate. Just yelling at people for disagreeing with your opinion and all you have supporting your opinion is yourself.

Your experience doesn't prove masculinity is anything more than social norms or that people need a dad. Its just being used as an unsuccessful attempt to shame.

I know it's very "check your privilege-y" and I wasn't trying to change any view-points or shame people with the post like many people who spout "check your privilege" do. Note that I didn't say you needed a dad or any other declarative things, I was simply stating that people who without-a-doubt claim "you don't need a dad" are as bad as the people who say you need a dad or else you'll turn bad. Sorry I didn't make my point a bit better, but like many arguments on the internet people see them in one of two lights with no room for in-betweens.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

I am not 100% confident in the reliability of this source, but some statistics I found for my native Canada are as follows

Children from fatherless homes are:
- 15.3 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
- 4.6 times more likely to commit suicide
- 6.6 times more likely to become teenaged mothers
- 24.3 times more likely to run away
- 6.3 times more likely to be in a state-operated institutions
- 10.8 times more likely to commit rape
- 6.6 times more likely to drop out of school
- 15.3 times more likely to end up in prison while a teenage
- 73% of adolescent murderers come from mother only homes
- 6.3 times more likely to be in state operated institutions

Daughters who live in mother only homes are
92% more likely to divorce so any mother preventing her daughter from seeing her dad is almost guaranteeing her daughter will divorce and have trouble in life with men. They do not learn to understand men when they do not have a father and can become promiscuous, afraid of men or experience other problems.

(Website seems a bit disorganized, but sites quite a few legit sounding sources)

More Statistics on Fatherlessness
CHILDREN NEED BOTH PARENTS

It is a Fact! Here is why:
· 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census).
· 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
· 85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes. (Source: Center for Disease Control).
· 80% of rapist motivated by displaced anger come from fatherless homes. (Source:
Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14, pp. 403-26).
· 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. (Source: National Principals Assoc. Report on the State of High Schools).
· 85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. (Source: Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. Of Corrections, 1992).

These statistics mean that children from fatherless homes are:
· 5 times more likely to commit suicide
· 32 times more likely to run away
· 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
· 14 times more likely to commit rape
· 9 times more likely to drop out of high school
· 20 times more likely to end up in prison

(the numbers seem slightly different on the same page, a bit concerning)

There is another graph on the page that I am having trouble formating to post in the forum but you can check it out if you are super interested. Hits super close to home for me, as I come from a single mother household.

Source: http://www.fathersunite.org/statistics_on_fatherlessnes.html

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I feel like I'm the only fatherless person here who's father wasn't a drunk wife-beater, addicted wife-beater or a deserter; and personally, I find all this "fathers aren't needed" bullshit highly offensive. No, I didn't become a drug-dealing gang member but having experienced what having a good, "masculine" father is like and then having that experience taken away mid-childhood gives you a perspective that not all that many have.

My point is, it's very easy to say "you don't need a dad" and "masculinity is wrong/non-existent" if you've lived in either a traditional family unit or an extremely broken family unit your whole lives.

Btw, that's the kind of 'check your privilege' thing people usually hate. Just yelling at people for disagreeing with your opinion and all you have supporting your opinion is yourself.

Your experience doesn't prove masculinity is anything more than social norms or that people need a dad. Its just being used as an unsuccessful attempt to shame.

I know it's very "check your privilege-y" and I wasn't trying to change any view-points or shame people with the post like many people who spout "check your privilege" do. Note that I didn't say you needed a dad or any other declarative things, I was simply stating that people who without-a-doubt claim "you don't need a dad" are as bad as the people who say you need a dad or else you'll turn bad. Sorry I didn't make my point a bit better, but like many arguments on the internet people see them in one of two lights with no room for in-betweens.

Okay that does make sense to me.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

If you feel this is out of line and not constructive toward your topic just say the word and I'll delete this, but there's something about this whole "absent father" thing that I don't quite understand.

I know that there are more children in the world without fathers than without mothers. However, there seems to be an assumption that there's a direct cause-and-effect relationship between not having a father and being more likely to commit crime. My question is, is lacking a father REALLY the deciding factor here? Because for children who lack a father, or any parent at all, there are generally a lot of other things going on. Children of single parents are typically poorer and have fewer opportunities for enrichment or higher education. They're pressured to enter the workforce sooner to help out with finances. They don't get away from home as often and typically don't have a lot of enriching free-time. They don't get to participate in as many extracurricular activities at school. The parent they do have is more likely to have some kind of problem like addiction or depression.

On top of that, the concern is always for boys lacking a father figure. There's never concern for a girl who lacks a father figure. Why is that? If the father figure is somehow the authority which compels children to stay on the straight and narrow, why is this only the case for boys? I understand single dads are much rarer than single mothers, but though I've heard a thousand times how fathers are the force which prevent boys from becoming criminals, I've never heard a correlation drawn between girls and their mothers that has such a profound effect.

I guess what I'm asking is, is the lack of a father figure really what causes boys to become criminals, or is it the other circumstances which surround single parents? Poverty is a well-known and documented predictor of crime, and single parents are often poor. Is there truly a correlation between a lack of a father figure and crime at all socio-economic levels? The reason I ask is that the cynical side of me often sees this "boys need father figures so they don't become criminals" argument trotted out by social conservatives who are trying to hammer home the importance of a nuclear family to discredit nontraditional or single-parent families, and to downplay the effect poverty has on crime.

I am not 100% confident in the reliability of this source, but some statistics I found for my native Canada are as follows

Children from fatherless homes are:
- 15.3 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
- 4.6 times more likely to commit suicide
- 6.6 times more likely to become teenaged mothers
- 24.3 times more likely to run away
- 6.3 times more likely to be in a state-operated institutions
- 10.8 times more likely to commit rape
- 6.6 times more likely to drop out of school
- 15.3 times more likely to end up in prison while a teenage
- 73% of adolescent murderers come from mother only homes
- 6.3 times more likely to be in state operated institutions

Daughters who live in mother only homes are
92% more likely to divorce so any mother preventing her daughter from seeing her dad is almost guaranteeing her daughter will divorce and have trouble in life with men. They do not learn to understand men when they do not have a father and can become promiscuous, afraid of men or experience other problems.

(Website seems a bit disorganized, but sites quite a few legit sounding sources)

More Statistics on Fatherlessness
CHILDREN NEED BOTH PARENTS

It is a Fact! Here is why:
· 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census).
· 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
· 85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes. (Source: Center for Disease Control).
· 80% of rapist motivated by displaced anger come from fatherless homes. (Source:
Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14, pp. 403-26).
· 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. (Source: National Principals Assoc. Report on the State of High Schools).
· 85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. (Source: Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. Of Corrections, 1992).

These statistics mean that children from fatherless homes are:
· 5 times more likely to commit suicide
· 32 times more likely to run away
· 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
· 14 times more likely to commit rape
· 9 times more likely to drop out of high school
· 20 times more likely to end up in prison

(the numbers seem slightly different on the same page, a bit concerning)

There is another graph on the page that I am having trouble formating to post in the forum but you can check it out if you are super interested. Hits super close to home for me, as I come from a single mother household.

Source: http://www.fathersunite.org/statistics_on_fatherlessnes.html

The thing is that doesn't answer her question really. She seemed to ask how we don't know it is other causes that may also be associated.

What that lists is a correlation. That does not mean its the main *cause*. It could be a symptom of other poor circumstances.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

The thing is that doesn't answer her question really. She seemed to ask how we don't know it is other causes that may also be associated.

What that lists is a correlation. That does not mean its the main *cause*. It could be a symptom of other poor circumstances.

I guess we cant know for 100% sure? But it seems to me that most any other "poor circumstances" when dealing with numbers like this, would be a result of the absent father anyway. The numbers here are based on large populations I think, it would be extremely difficult to find data specifically for "unconventional families" to compare with. Not that I tried.

This website seems focused on the results of divorce, does not really concerned with homosexuals adopting children and whatnot.

 

[JoJo]

Snip

Hm. certainly interesting. Not sure if I agree with it 100% but it's interesting.

Do you have any sources about that extra developmental stage?

I don't have the OG sources since I learned most of that between a workplace lecture and a university library book, don't really have time now but I'll see if I can dig anything up online tomorrow after work.

 

[Jamieson 90]

As a male Teaching Assistant who works in a school which is predominantly dominated by female staff, I can tell you that the boys definitely do look up to the men and that we have a huge influence on how they behave. Like it or loath it, that's just the way it is.

They copy you in ways you wouldn't even think of.

How you stand, how you talk, how you use your voice.
How you treat girls/women.
What sort of jobs you do i.e. lifting heavy things instead of a female member of staff etc.
They watch and see how good you are at reacting under pressure, whether you can figure things out or use directions etc; how decisive you are.

Basically anything you can think of they'll copy it.

Things are changing of course, but there are a lot of old ideas about men and women that still persist, and it's my belief that there are certain subjects or things that are better dealt with by a man, at least where boys are concerned.

For example:
A boy's first shave.
Learning about puberty & the dreaded 'talk', although to be fair I imagine talks about periods and the like come better from women where girls are concerned too, because let's face it, there are some subjects we feel more comfortable discussing with people of the same sex.

 

[Someone Depressing]

I grew up without a dad, but he was sort of a useless sack of shit, and I was surrounded by capable, strong, independent women who didn't need no men for most of my life. I haven't joined a gang, killed anyone (at least, I don't think so) and haven't committed any mass bank fraud lately.

In my community, girls without mothers was always a bigger problem than those lazy bastards not paying the damn childcare (MEN. Damn 'em to heck) as teachers and adults would always worry that they would end up picking abusive boyfriends or would lack the confidence to assert themselves and would instead be victimised by sexists or whatever.

Looking back on it, it seems silly, as the girls without mothers - or parental figures at all, really - all grew up fine.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

At this stage boys imitate the men around them to learn how to be a man, .

and what does it mean to actually be a man?

It can mean anything, look at this thread and you'll find more than fifty definitions here alone. This is why it's crucial for boys to have a positive male influence who can teach them to be a responsible man, one who isn't violent towards their spouses or children and is generally decent. That picture of masculinity is one you want them to learn, rather than say a swaggering 'Jack the Lad' who's never done a honest day's work in his life and only thinks about getting laid easy.

Now, clearly some people never get a good role-model and still make it, others have a great start and fall by the wayside for various reasons. It's about shifting in the odds in the kid's direction, nothing is foolproof, you have to do your best and hope it works.

Look, this is something that's been bugging me for the entire thread and it's the reason I think it's going downhill...why does a man need to have a male role model? It really does seem to be pushing that old mindset that the only way a family can function properly is with a traditional nuclear family, one dad, one mom. Kids raised by lesbian couples and single mothers seem to turn out all right. I'm just confused, why does a male need a male role model?

Then again I probably shouldn't talk because every time someone tells me to "be a man" I feel the urge to tell them to go fuck themselves with a cactus. Man only means one of two things to me. A male who has reached adulthood and emotional maturity, and a person who identifies as the male gender. That's all it means to me. Everything else just seems...kind of pointless. People keep saying "men have to be X" "Men have to be Y" and it just baffles me. Why do we have to march in gridlock? Why can't we just be who we are? I get that some people really need role models in life, especially in media, but really the overall implication I'm getting from this thread is that people really need someone specifically male in their day to day life. Which just kind of baffles me.

I just don't get it.

Men and women typically behave differently, sure there are exceptions to every rule and perhaps you fall into one of those. That does not change the fact that men and women are different. When someone says "be a man" they typically mean (I think) Stick up for yourself, Do not let people push around those you care for, Do not shy away from conflict if it is about something that matters to you, and be willing to bite the bullet and do some serious suffering it it leads to something positive for you and yours.

This is not to say that women could not also benefit from this same advice, its just some things that are traditionally attributed to a masculine attitude, and it seems to me from my life experience (with some exceptions of course) that this generally holds true.

 

[mecegirl]

Personally I think both genders need positive male and female role models just so they can get a jump start on learning how to become well adjusted person, and to learn what well adjusted people look like. Those role models don't have to be the biological mother and father, but hopefully they exist. It could be a teacher, coach or neighbor. It certainly has helped me dodge some bullets in my personal life. Of course I have a smaller group of friends because of my tenancy to not get close to certain people, but all my friends are good ones. I also can't say that I have any enemies. But every once and a while I'll hear about some drama caused by a person that I've flagged as trouble and feel a lot better about who I keep close.

 

[cleric of the order]

Look, this is something that's been bugging me for the entire thread and it's the reason I think it's going downhill...

From what I saw, the thread kinda started on the wrong foot. no need for modesty.

why does a man need to have a male role model?

Some of us do, why not.
Why have any role models, people you admire at all, it just muddies the essence of yourself.
Sometimes i think, deep down some dudes just need to know it's alright to be a dude, sometimes the weight of the fathers sin's weight heavy on a few guys.
Others are quiet over gender roles like you and need a bit of a hand, I've felt that a good father figure helps the idea of what is a man go down quite smoothly, cuts out the over simplified bullshit people spout about what is a man. Helps people learn to balance who they are with what society expects, their duties and their responsibilities.
If I didn't have a couple good father figures I would have been worse off.
At the very least, this I suppose as a thread is more about working out emotional baggage/sharing experiences and just helping others get through this shit. not sure if that was the OPs intention but why care.
There's more jungian unconscious shit i could get into but that's a bit... weird.

It really does seem to be pushing that old mindset that the only way a family can function properly is with a traditional nuclear family, one dad, one mom.

Not always, it just means people like to have men in their lives, ones they can look up to and respect.

Kids raised by lesbian couples and single mothers seem to turn out all right.

There is always a butch and a feminine no? even then that's an interesting study.

I'm just confused, why does a male need a male role model?

Why have any role models at all? I was thinking the best and fastest way to destroy gender roles is to have kids raised by a gender neutral machine.
It might piss off harry harlow though, he fucked up so many monkeys to warn us of this.

Then again I probably shouldn't talk because every time someone tells me to "be a man" I feel the urge to tell them to go fuck themselves with a cactus.

Context sensitive man, there is a big difference between some backwoods ol' racist tellin' yah that and anyone else telling you to keep a stiff upper lip. Also who the hell tells you that, seriously?

Man only means one of two things to me. A male who has reached adulthood and emotional maturity, and a person who identifies as the male gender. That's all it means to me. Everything else just seems...kind of pointless.

I should point out that, that is not true for every human being. Some hold high regard the ideals of manhood and womanhood and the responsibilities and duties therein, and they are perfectly reasonable, kind and good human beings. it's the enforcing your beliefs on someone that is the act of .... merciful evil, or cruel good. catch my meaning?

People keep saying "men have to be X" "Men have to be Y" and it just baffles me. Why do we have to march in gridlock? Why can't we just be who we are?

I always liked the quote from bone about dragons, we told everyone that they were a lie, people would have to find out for themselves. It's about transcendence, understanding these roles and making due with what you have and functioning with it.
I could "be myself" as much as i wanted but life needs conflict, it grows around it and through it and these knots, warps boils and everything are what help define us. We are only truly ourselves at our worse and best. And we can only find ourselves after a long dark night of the soul.
(existentialism fo life.)

I get that some people really need role models in life, especially in media, but really the overall implication I'm getting from this thread is that people really need someone specifically male in their day to day life.

dude te point of this thread was to give advise to people that have either had no fathers or bad fathers.
which will bring me to this

Which just kind of baffles me.

I just don't get it.

Well imagine having never knowing you biological parents. then remove half of that, obviously some people would like to know about their father and the culture/experiences they've had.
The father is 1/2 of your linage and behind you stands ranks upon ranks of ancestors, cultures, ideas and so forth that you are lacking.
I really wish my dad was clean and sober enough to tell me about Jamaica or my cousins in India. Whom i know very little about.
And while he is far better now in his later years I bet a lot of others he also want to know hat there is some link to there past, want to mitigate the damage some what.
Just a thought

 

[Erttheking]

Personally I think both genders need positive male and female role models just so they can get a jump start on learning how to become well adjusted person, and to learn what well adjusted people look like. Those role models don't have to be the biological mother and father, but hopefully they exist. It could be a teacher, coach or neighbor. It certainly has helped me dodge some bullets in my personal life. Of course I have a smaller group of friends because of my tenancy to not get close to certain people, but all my friends are good ones. I also can't say that I have any enemies. But every once and a while I'll hear about some drama caused by a person that I've flagged as trouble and feel a lot better about who I keep close.

Hm...this actually makes sense when approached from this angle.

I suppose I could've stood to learn something from this thread if I hadn't been so hot headed...oh boy, me and my temper getting the better of me again.

 

[VanQ]

Jesus, I haven't ever actually heard of any guy actually doing that in real life. Nobody deserves that. Nobody.

oh come off it.

depends on the poetry and context.

my entire nation spent last Sunday doing that (at least notionally/partially)...

Calm down. I mean I've never heard of a guy read poetry to try to 'woo' a girl. The thought of how awkward that must be is scary. I have nothing against poetry otherwise.

 

[VanTesla]

If you grow up without a father or a abusive father you should always know you are not at fault for his actions. What I mean is for any that have grown up without or have been abuse sometimes think or are even told by bad people that they are somehow part of the problem. Never should you be told or feel that your father is X because of you for that is an excuse and lie that can eat away at your very soul/mind if you let it fester.

I was fortunate to have a good mother and supportive family on her side if that was not the case I could have become something I hate or be dead, but sadly many around the world don't have even that. Their struggle is much harder and if they find no positive support they are more likely to join the wrong kind of people or possibly commit harm to ones own self. Those that have no father, mother, and family should never have to feel that they are not loved and never feel they are worthless or a mistake. Your battle is great to overcome the absence of be it a father, mother, family, and your reward to overcoming these hurdles is the knowledge that you are loved and worth more than any one that has done wrong to their own blood if you never do so to repeat their failures as a father, mother, and etc.

So in all you are never truly alone in your struggle when growing up without one or more parents and you do have support even if it may not be easy to see or to find depending on where you live and your situation, but you are none the less still never truly alone in your struggles and thus your are loved.