let's debate piracy and the hypocrisy behind it

[Babitz]

snip

We're not saying it's not wrong, we're saying we don't have much other choice, except not playing games at all. We do buy original games when we can afford them, mainly when the price drops a bit.

Back in high school, I had a weekly allowance of about 8$, which was barely enough to for food while away in school. How was I supposed to buy games back then? Also, there wasn't Steam. Now that I have a job, I can afford a game every two months or so, meaning my situation has improved. If it weren't for piracy, I probably wouldn't be a gamer right now, so I wouldn't be buying games and the gaming industry would earn less thanks to me. I know it's not much of a loss, but multiply it by a huge number because that's how almost everyone around here who buys original games got in touch with gaming: thanks to piracy. That's why I'm saying it did more good for the industry than DRM ever will.

@Seneschal
Otkud si?

 

[PhiMed]

snip

We're not saying it's not wrong, we're saying we don't have much other choice, except not playing games at all. We do buy original games when we can afford them, mainly when the price drops a bit.

Back in high school, I had a weekly allowance of about 8$, which was barely enough to for food while away in school. How was I supposed to buy games back then? Also, there wasn't Steam. Now that I have a job, I can afford a game every two months or so, meaning my situation has improved. If it weren't for piracy, I probably wouldn't be a gamer right now, so I wouldn't be buying games and the gaming industry would earn less thanks to me. I know it's not much of a loss, but multiply it by a huge number because that's how almost everyone around here who buys original games got in touch with gaming: thanks to piracy. That's why I'm saying it did more good for the industry than DRM ever will.

@Seneschal
Otkud si?

I don't think anyone here has made the case that DRM, in and of itself, has done any good for anything. It's terrible, but it's a reaction to piracy. If piracy didn't exist, neither would DRM, and our world would be a better place.
Saying piracy has done more good for gaming than DRM has is a bit like saying intravenous heroine abuse has done more good for your health than carbon monoxide poisoning has.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Asnip[/url].

snip

snip

snip

The public is interested because the game is getting pirated. If nobody were interested in the product it wouldn't be pirated. Also, take a civics class or two and stop with the anarcho-communist arguments. Law is not just about keeping you rascals quiet after quiet hours have started. Law is society's way of functioning in a way that minimizes the abuse of its people. Disagree if you will. Game companies actually are composed of people, with lives, and expenses trying to make a paycheck from their hard work. Go ahead and say "nobody is harmed if I take what I haven't earned." Jack's government is saying that about his tax dollars, so I guess what goes around comes around.

Popularity drives both infringement and profit, if its not popular not many will take the the time to watch it much less infringe on it.

I need to take a grammar class more I get my subjects crossed then via nerd rage invent crappy ways to try and stay in the discussion. Oh well I am learning.

Yes but you do realize my argument for infringement is that people do it every day every time they format shift every time they make a "legal" back up,every other time they record a digital broadcast. So what do we a society do make normal things a crime or realize without the profit motive there can never be any real harm done as its part of the normal media consumption process.

Again you guys keep glazing over the fact I want copyright to focus on profit thus making the majority of current file shearing illegal.....

And most game developers work 9 to 5 jobs they are already paid as most films,ect are and music gets most of the profit from concerts, TV gets its profit from ad rev and or subscriptions. So meh the majority of them get paid and impairment has nothing to do with the public wanting to buy what their selling, let me correct that a bit the more its shared the more the public is likely to spend money on it, and before you bring in world of goo its a niche game that bearly went mainstream.....of corse its going to have issues with sales.

But again my deeper point is that you focus on profit flow and harshly take out all forms of illicit profit which is the majority of current file shearing reducing any shearing that remains to far and few between.

alternatives are no good for a future games tester and programmer.

-snip-

What modern games can show the un average tester or game designer is what not to do and what with more polish can become golden.

--snip--

World of goo you can see bits of lemmings and other puzzle games(one on the PSP I forget the name of and a SNES one I forget the name of). Braid is a mix of classic 2D adventure platfomers like Cadash,Popfulmail and Mario wolrd but with a more puzzle theme.
Psychonauts is a adventure/action platformer at heart whats unique about it or beyond good and evil is the story and the style in which you go about playing the game.

Somewhere in that snip I'm sure I said that each game has elements that have been used before and since, but this is missing the point. My point is if you boil down game development to regurgitating older games, a good chunk your base will get bored and leave. Sure you can use old elements (that's why there are game genres) but it has to be presented attractively or nobody will care (unless it's the next big title in a series and people buy it out of habit.)

Was just reafriming the point that creativity dose not happen in a vacuum.

Planescape: Torment? a bit of D&D and dark or otherwise fantasy novels and comics for inspiration of the setting I assume and the gamepaly is derived from RPGs before it.

Don't underestimate the importance of the storyline. Sure the setting is borrowed from an existing fiction, but the story is unique to anything I've seen before or since. It changed the way I view games as a medium and the very concepts of life and death. But now I'm just gushing... so moving on.

Story<gameplay as a interactive medium you can not produce something that is annoying to interact with...and they do it all the time.......drives me crazy......er.

With that said a few rare games have a wonderful story and cast, but not many.

The creation process goes beyond copy catting X or Y as you play and absorb games you see bits and pieces of mechanics that at times you so badly want to tweak because they are just off a bit or just horribly implemented(at least I do and I so rag about it at times).

Off topic, but if all you do is tweak mechanics you haven't created anything. Watch Yahtzee's recent videos that get the "Like God of War but..." tag. You need to make a contribution to the genre, even if it is just being a better story teller, or the game is forgotten and sent to the bottom of the bargain bin. Whatever you do by "tweaking" is going to just be marred by the everpresent notion of "so what? X did it first."

So? the point of being creative is not making something new and unique in a vacuum but refining what is there and making it shine. At least that with trying to make something more unique than what is out there.

One can not develop a new experience just by going over your single minded mechanic or game ideal(look at damnation or even dantes inferno its a perfect example of a game developed in a vacuum ) one has to experience what has been done then add their own to it. And that is difficult these days as creativity is something companies put aside to do a 9 to 5 gig.

I never claimed adherence to a single game ideal could create a new experience. Quite the opposite. The games I listed were vastly different in scope, mechanics, and even purpose. I consider these games standouts in the field though because what they offered at the time they came out I had not found in other games. Any game now though that starts out "an immortal amnesiac wakes up in the morgue" seems like a tired joke. And I agree, creativity is largely ignored in favor of a tried and true formula: usually "ruggedly handsome space marine shoots aliens for fun and profit." My words have been taken out of context and my point was that you won't create something good by knowing "what not to do." You must have an idea of what TO do.

Ah true true.

I like cliched starts actually but its the dragging the cliche out that tends to kill me.

Now with that said absorbing games is only one part of of becoming a developer so you can see mechanics and weave them together and make a refined game ideal, thats easy I do it all the time. The hard part is stream lining the ideal so the fat is cut from it, making it coherent and then bringing it to life. All I can do is imagine and think I am working on my coding skills but they suck, same for my artistic/drawing skills I have no money for collage all I got is a dream and a break brain(learning disabilities) that makes it very hard to communicate and read physical books. But I am trying, call it a vain pitiful try all you want but nothing will get done if all I do is dream..

I'm not ragging on anyone's dreams or the difficulties they may have in reaching them. All I said is that if making games is your goal, having games to play needs to be secondary to learning how to make games. I spend an inordinate time playing games (mostly older games) and have absolutely no idea how to make one. My time playing games has not in the least prepped me for a life of programming, debugging, and making shipping deadlines.

Now that I can agree with, there is a rancid pit between gamer and professional, as for me I want to become a skilled hobbyist and smell less

Between my mental issues and skill level [http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/cotlop-zippybook/] and other factors I do not think I will ever make it out of the pit.

Oh and I believe DaOysterboy was talking bout creating a game based on a new idea

Well done! We're almost getting somewhere!

(which is more likely a conglomerated one since there is nothing really new anymore) that has not been seen i gaming before.

*sigh* ...nevermind I guess. I really don't understand why anyone would want to work in an industry where you NEVER DO ANYTHING NEW! Of course there are ideas that haven't been explored! There's a game out soon (if not already) called The Misadventures of P.B Winterbottom... it's apparently about a silent movie villain who can manipulate time in order to steal pies. After watching the trailer I thought "That is fucking genius right there. PIES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!" Sure, time manipulation to obtain an object=Braid, but I defy you to find a setting or character to approximate what the game is offering. Now I haven't played it and the game may or may not completely suck, but I'm grateful somebody is at least trying. To say "everything creative has been done" is extremely cynical (and I'd be careful with that viewpoint if you ever are hired onto a creative development team) and I simply don't buy it. Someday, someone will make a game where you play a dragon chef with his own cooking show detailing how to make tasty concoctions from virgin-princesses-chained-to-rocks and you have to secure your lair against the knightly vermin who keep trying to steal your ingredients and the contents of your horde pile, and it will be funny, and sarcastic, with awesome graphics and sound, and the story will somehow seamlessly incorporate a race of talking cats bent on taking over the world, without any irony or disconnect from other plotlines, and so help me God I will buy it!!![/quote]
I dunno look at film and modern media all there is is regurgitation of something being derived from something what we call new is merely a different way to mix and match what has been done, and sometimes what the mainstream finds "new" has been done to death in another era/area of media.

Braid is mario(SMB2 like at least) minus power ups with sands of time time mechanic.

Go back to mame arcades or the arcades of the mid 70's to mid 80s P.B Winterbottomis not to far from it with some modern game tweaks. Also I would not call flash games mainstream games but I guess I am over thinking it and letting my hatred of fads(DLC) and the industry(anti creative ass holes) to cloud my judgment a bit .

 

[Seneschal]

snip

We're not saying it's not wrong, we're saying we don't have much other choice, except not playing games at all. We do buy original games when we can afford them, mainly when the price drops a bit.

Back in high school, I had a weekly allowance of about 8$, which was barely enough to for food while away in school. How was I supposed to buy games back then? Also, there wasn't Steam. Now that I have a job, I can afford a game every two months or so, meaning my situation has improved. If it weren't for piracy, I probably wouldn't be a gamer right now, so I wouldn't be buying games and the gaming industry would earn less thanks to me. I know it's not much of a loss, but multiply it by a huge number because that's how almost everyone around here who buys original games got in touch with gaming: thanks to piracy. That's why I'm saying it did more good for the industry than DRM ever will.

@Seneschal
Otkud si?

Exactly. I remember that some games just never got pirated, ever. Most of my friends owned collector's editions of Baldur's Gate, Starcraft, Diablo II, etc. The gaming community is vast here, and even though it generates little income, it would generate NONE if piracy didn't exist.

The 2% and 12.5% values take into account buying ONE game per month. With the same amount of work, a work week of around 40 hours, 8 hours per day, an American who spends 12.5% of his monthly income on games can buy 6 games. An Easter European gamer can buy only one. Even though they spend the same amount of time working and enjoy a relatively similar standard of living, the prices of games aren't adjusted, and Eastern gamers get short-changed.

These calculations aren't precise, of course, so I invite anyone who has the correct data to compare it himself. The results will still prove my point. It's not about being entitled to games, but about being entitled to a fair treatment, not just a fraction of the games for the same amount of effort. Piracy is not a fair solution to this problem, since it can be abused so that the consumer doesn't have to ever pay for games. But in the absence of any other option, it's completely unsurprising that half of Europe pirates.

I think, as far as developing nations are concerned, digital distribution might break this international barrier, so piracy could soon become a far less damaging issue. It's still not equality, but it's equal enough. Though this won't stop American pirates in any way.

@Babitz
Iz Pule.

 

[DaOysterboy]

Since when did average cost and marginal cost become the same thing? Also, since when did companies begin lowering prices for each person based on what they were willing to pay?

l2read. I never said that companies lower price per person. Where did you pull that from? I said they set prices FOR EVERYONE where their marginal revenue equals marginal cost. Did you even try the link I sent?

Common sense dictates that you keep your prices relatively stable, otherwise consumers won't buy because they will expect a future price drop. The marginal cost = marginal revenue is the point at which you should sell the very last unit if you constantly lowered prices based on what people are willing to pay for it. Sticking it up at marginal cost will net you a profit per unit sold of 0.

I see you haven't taken a college level economics course so let me give you a brief rundown of what about this is wrong. YES, companies will keep their prices stable (at least over long periods of time, several years). So your argument that you sell the last unit at that price while constantly lowering prices is invalid. You aren't lowering price, you are *fixing* a price that maximizes your profit. Perhaps I phrased if poorly, but you also haven't grasped the concept of marginal cost. Marginal cost varies with number of units sold. Price does not. If I produce one unit for sale, I still have to pay the development team, maybe the advertising team, and the graphics team, produce the disk, manual, box, art, and distribute it. My marginal cost on selling just one unit can still reach into the millions. Now let's say I produce two units. The marginal cost on that is much lower, an extra disc to burn the data to, a little more time on the box making machine, one more manual, and let's even ship it on the same truck. Costs a lot less right? Now lets make 4 million copies. Eventually you're adding in extra man hours to produce the extra materials, extra advertisements to tell the world about your product, you're shipping many many loads of products around the world, you need more capital to keep up production lines. In short, the cost to make "one more unit" is now increasing. Your marginal revenue is NOT. Selling one more game only brings in the price of one more game, which is the same price as the first game you sold. So for a game that sells at $50 you stop *producing* when your marginal cost equals $50, not stop lowering your price. Your *average cost* for each unit will be LOWER than the marginal cost of the final unit. Hence your profit equals (price-average total cost per unit)*quantity, not (price-marginal total cost)*quantity.

In fact, I even stated that the fixed costs (ie: Developing the game) are seperate.
"If they just left it there they'd simply suffer their fixed costs as a loss as their revenue only covers the cost of producing and distributing the games themselves."

Marginal cost varies per unit sold EDIT: phrased that poorly. It varies with your total produced quantity END EDIT. I'm gonna say it until you go look it up.

Actually, you're somewhat right, I did make an error. All those fixed costs for development are part of the marginal cost of that very first unit produced. So it should be sold at around $10000000 or so. After that first unit, the cost of producing additional units falls and rises as more administration fees become necessary. Despite all this, and assuming that you somehow manage to sell that first unit to someone, you'll be breaking even.

You do not sell each game at a price equal to the marginal cost if you stopped producing at that unit. You sell each game at a price equal to the marginal cost of the final unit. I'm gonna say it until you go look it up.

I might not be a genius, but I'm fairly certain that when all the costs of every single unit are equal to the revenue gained from every single unit, you're breaking even with a net profit of 0.

Yes you would. And I'm going to state again that is not what you are doing. Every single unit is set at one price while your costs initially decrease (due to fixed costs, yes) then increase (due to increasing costs per unit)

You need to sell at more than it costs you to make something if you want to make any profit, that model only works to decide when to stop lowering the price for people who aren't willing to pay much for the good. It also assumes a different price for each individual.

In the real world, human behaviour (or as the wikipedia article calls it "Game Theory") destroys the possibility of anyone actually doing that.

And every unit except for the final unit sells at a price that is more than it cost to make it. In this model you never change the price. Not for anyone. You simply stop producing when it is no longer worth it to produce. Game theory is something separate and I left it out to keep the model simple.

I just saw on the Extra Punctuation comments that you're Croatian. You comment now makes much more sense. Being one myself, I agree and understand Jack's views.

I made the same point four other times, but no one ever deigns to respond. It's just getting ridiculous. You cannot apply the same logic to a fat lazy cheap American and a poor Russian gamer. It would be much simpler, but it is fundamentally wrong.

I'm sorry that nobody agrees with your viewpoint of "Hey we're Eastern European so pirating is ok," but Numaiomul already brought up the whole "discrimination" point so I may as well point out that saying "Americans are bad for pirating, but we're not" is just as discriminatory. Yes, you CAN apply the same logic to an American because if you create a double standard it is discriminatory. It is not discrimination to not sell your product at a price that is not profitable. That is bad business. And taking luxuries that you have not paid for is a crime. So stop saying "poor us, the downtrodden masses who have no money for hobbies, that other people enjoy." Eventually you have to grow up and realize that NOBODY gets EVERY LUXURY THEY WANT. The economy isn't exactly peachy here either, and I'm not saying it's anywhere near as bad as where you're at, but when times are tough you tighten your belt and go *without* some things that you enjoy even if it causes frustration, discomfort, or even outright PAIN. Maybe you have to live in the richest country in the world to see that, but it's the truth. WANTS are practically unlimited. If you ever managed to get cheaper games I am unconvinced that you will be satisfied with your lot in life. You'll simply move on to the next thing that you don't have and ***** about not having it until you find a way to get that for free without getting caught too, then justify away until people are bending over backwards to ensure your personal wants are met.

With an average American wage of $2600 per month, a typical $50 game costs you 2% of your monthly income. In Eastern Europe (and I'm talking affluent parts), the average wage is $800 and the equivalent game is $100, which is 12.5% of the monthly income. So, we pay as much as you for games that cost twice as much to get SIX TIMES less content. If Jack is from Romania or Albania, double or triple this difference. This means that with the effort to buy the 5-6 original games Jack has, he could have bought 50-90 games if he was American. He wouldn't feel the need to pirate, he would have already bought everything he wants. I bet half of you don't even own that many games.

Jack needs to rearrange his budget and stop spending so much on games then. I know very few people who own 50-90 games and I definitely did not have that many at the age of 18. I have maybe 30ish on my PC and that's from saving and collecting over 15 years. So most of them are old. Really you sound just like every other teenager I know, "how come I don't get a car?" "Why can't I go somewhere fun on vacation like Australia?" You're just spoiled in a lower income bracket "Why can't I play as many video games as the American kids?" Coming online to complain is going to make everyone just say "life isn't fair. Get over it." And it isn't. So you should. I'm not going to act like your father and console your injured feelings. If your country is so terrible you should be scraping together what you can to GET OUT, not to play video games then whine about how it's not as good where you are.

 

[Seneschal]

snip

You misunderstand the situation I described. We're talking about developing countries being a breeding ground for pirates, but we're still talking about the First World (at least Poland, half of Ex-Yugoslavia, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, etc.). The living standard is somewhat lower than in the US, but most of commodities of modern western society are both available and affordable. Foreign companies establish local factories to produce their brand at lower prices, thereby adjusting the price to the income of the population. A videogame market could be sustainable, yet there is none. Bookstores sell only AAA titles at inflated prices, and only because they have another source of income. I've yet to hear of an exclusively videogame retail store.

What I want to say is that I have some money to spare for games, but in a country whose economical infrastructure is far from disastrous, I still get much, much less than I pay for when I buy games in comparison to you. There is no reason to GET OUT like you say, and that's why I'm so pissed. A person that spends the same percentage of his income on games in America is labeled an insanely devoted gamer that never needs to pirate, while here I get a game every other month or so. Did I work less so that I don't have any right to game? Nope.

 

[DaOysterboy]

snip

You misunderstand the situation I described. We're talking about developing countries being a breeding ground for pirates, but we're still talking about the First World (at least Poland, half of Ex-Yugoslavia, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, etc.). The living standard is somewhat lower than in the US, but most of commodities of modern western society are both available and affordable. Foreign companies establish local factories to produce their brand at lower prices, thereby adjusting the price to the income of the population. A videogame market could be sustainable, yet there is none. Bookstores sell only AAA titles at inflated prices, and only because they have another source of income. I've yet to hear of an exclusively videogame retail store.

What I want to say is that I have some money to spare for games, but in a country whose economical infrastructure is far from disastrous, I still get much, much less than I pay for when I buy games in comparison to you. There is no reason to GET OUT like you say, and that's why I'm so pissed. A person that spends the same percentage of his income on games in America is labeled an insanely devoted gamer that never needs to pirate, while here I get a game every other month or so. Did I work less so that I don't have any right to game? Nope.

OK, so this is nothing more than "games cost more here and I don't think it's fair"? Because really, if you get a game every couple of months you have lost ALL of my sympathy, friend. If I've read all the previous posts correctly then, I have to pay more for computer parts and broadband than you guys. A monthly subscription to Comcast to get broadband internet at my home is about $50 a month. I don't have broadband. I can't afford it. I use the internet through school. My hard drive is full but getting a 1TB HD costs about $100 retail, $70+s/h if I order on Newegg wait a week and don't have to return ship a DOA product. I make well under "the average $2600" a month. Much closer to half that. Grad students don't get rich by being grad students. Rent is $600 for a 500 square foot apartment, (and I live in the cheaper regions of the country) not including power and gas. Throw in food, textbooks, differential tuition (damn you economy!), insurance, phone, car maintenance, and my wife has had type 1 diabetes since she was 9. How much do you think I spend per month now on brand new games with fully functioning multiplayer support? Spending more than I do would be inexcusably irresponsible to my little family of my wife and I. Moreso because she doesn't play so only I benefit. But I don't pirate.

IF there is a viable market there for video games, then you should open up a store yourself, get a license to be a distributor and then start selling games and make a profit. Talk to game devs and see what they sell games to their distributors for. You may make it big, but I'm guessing it's more likely that you'll find out the reason games are expensive in your country is not because the game devs are assholes, but because your country charges them extra to distribute their product in your country so that cost falls on the consumer. I had a teacher who would travel a lot and as he went from place to place he'd always go find a McDonald's, order a Big Mac, medium fries, and medium Coke, and write down the cost. In China he said, the burger was much cheaper than in America but the Coke was $4. Here in the states $4 is expensive for a GALLON of Coke (~4 liters). People in the UK pay about as much for a liter of gasoline as we pay for a gallon of it. People in Venezuela and Saudi Arabia pay much, much less for gas. If I buy food in an airport or a movie theater I do so understanding I can probably get it cheaper elsewhere. I'm willing to bet my rent is a hell of a lot higher than your family's per square foot. Regional pricing differences are a fact of life and are not unfair. You pay less for computer hardware and internet. I pay less for games. I don't use it as an excuse for illegal activity. I play the cards I was dealt and I play fair.

Back to the original topic, it seems to me that your crusade should be less about "hey go easy on us pirates" and more focused on increasing availability and popularity of legit digital distribution and other means where barriers to enter the market are lower. (Yeah, I know you don't have a credit card Jack. You're big enough now though that you might want to try to apply. Or work out an arrangement with your parents to use theirs if you must.) Seriously though, I prefer retail copies with a physical disk, manual, box, etc. but if I thought it would improve the market in other countries (thereby helping the games industry as a whole), I wouldn't mind getting my stuff through Steam to expand the medium. By the way, nobody *still* has commented on whether Steam charges different in other countries, which would kinda kill the crux of my argument.

EDIT: It would appear that yes this is a problem. But it's not the devs fault. Write to your government leaders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29#Regional_restrictions_and_pricing

"Sometimes publishers are split into mostly independent North America/European/Asian divisions and one division doesn't have the rights to distribute in all areas. In order to distribute in all areas we have to negotiate deals with all the different divisions and they all have different ideas of how pricing should work and how important digital distribution is for their games. We are always trying to help them understand the importance of markets around the world as well as help them understand the importance of fair and equal pricing for all regions, but it's an ongoing struggle."

?John McCaskey, Steam programmer, August 2008

There's a Steam community group called "Rest of World" designed to lobby against the practice. Go join. You don't need a credit card to download the client and join groups.

 

[Seneschal]

snip

You misunderstand the situation I described. We're talking about developing countries being a breeding ground for pirates, but we're still talking about the First World (at least Poland, half of Ex-Yugoslavia, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, etc.). The living standard is somewhat lower than in the US, but most of commodities of modern western society are both available and affordable. Foreign companies establish local factories to produce their brand at lower prices, thereby adjusting the price to the income of the population. A videogame market could be sustainable, yet there is none. Bookstores sell only AAA titles at inflated prices, and only because they have another source of income. I've yet to hear of an exclusively videogame retail store.

What I want to say is that I have some money to spare for games, but in a country whose economical infrastructure is far from disastrous, I still get much, much less than I pay for when I buy games in comparison to you. There is no reason to GET OUT like you say, and that's why I'm so pissed. A person that spends the same percentage of his income on games in America is labeled an insanely devoted gamer that never needs to pirate, while here I get a game every other month or so. Did I work less so that I don't have any right to game? Nope.

OK, so this is nothing more than "games cost more here and I don't think it's fair"? Because really, if you get a game every couple of months you have lost ALL of my sympathy, friend. If I've read all the previous posts correctly then, I have to pay more for computer parts and broadband than you guys. A monthly subscription to Comcast to get broadband internet at my home is about $50 a month. I don't have broadband. I can't afford it. I use the internet through school. My hard drive is full but getting a 1TB HD costs about $100 retail, $70+s/h if I order on Newegg wait a week and don't have to return ship a DOA product. I make well under "the average $2600" a month. Much closer to half that. Grad students don't get rich by being grad students. Rent is $600 for a 500 square foot apartment, (and I live in the cheaper regions of the country) not including power and gas. Throw in food, textbooks, differential tuition (damn you economy!), insurance, phone, car maintenance, and my wife has had type 1 diabetes since she was 9. How much do you think I spend per month now on brand new games with fully functioning multiplayer support? Spending more than I do would be inexcusably irresponsible to my little family of my wife and I. Moreso because she doesn't play so only I benefit. But I don't pirate.

IF there is a viable market there for video games, then you should open up a store yourself, get a license to be a distributor and then start selling games and make a profit. Talk to game devs and see what they sell games to their distributors for. You may make it big, but I'm guessing it's more likely that you'll find out the reason games are expensive in your country is not because the game devs are assholes, but because your country charges them extra to distribute their product in your country so that cost falls on the consumer. I had a teacher who would travel a lot and as he went from place to place he'd always go find a McDonald's, order a Big Mac, medium fries, and medium Coke, and write down the cost. In China he said, the burger was much cheaper than in America but the Coke was $4. Here in the states $4 is expensive for a GALLON of Coke (~4 liters). People in the UK pay about as much for a liter of gasoline as we pay for a gallon of it. People in Venezuela and Saudi Arabia pay much, much less for gas. If I buy food in an airport or a movie theater I do so understanding I can probably get it cheaper elsewhere. I'm willing to bet my rent is a hell of a lot higher than your family's per square foot. Regional pricing differences are a fact of life and are not unfair. You pay less for computer hardware and internet. I pay less for games. I don't use it as an excuse for illegal activity. I play the cards I was dealt and I play fair.

Back to the original topic, it seems to me that your crusade should be less about "hey go easy on us pirates" and more focused on increasing availability and popularity of legit digital distribution and other means where barriers to enter the market are lower. (Yeah, I know you don't have a credit card Jack. You're big enough now though that you might want to try to apply. Or work out an arrangement with your parents to use theirs if you must.) Seriously though, I prefer retail copies with a physical disk, manual, box, etc. but if I thought it would improve the market in other countries (thereby helping the games industry as a whole), I wouldn't mind getting my stuff through Steam to expand the medium. By the way, nobody *still* has commented on whether Steam charges different in other countries, which would kinda kill the crux of my argument.

I haven't said that we buy computers easier than you do. They're cheaper, but still expensive for us. The price of the cheapest 1TB HDD is still around $100; some components are slightly cheaper, some aren't. Putting together a gaming computer is a matter of choosing brands and finding opportunities or sales, and high-end ones are simply out of the question altogether. I can live with that just fine, it takes some effort, a few years of savings and lots of research. We aren't "better off" in that aspect than you are by any means.

I never said I buy new games or AAA titles. I buy a few times a year and regularly on discount ($8-12). The expense isn't negligible, but I can afford it most years. I don't pirate much because I would be downloading the games I cannot afford, which happen to be the games I cannot run on my computer. I don't know a single person that buys $100 games simply because a person with that much disposable income can buy much more valuable things in Croatia. And people like that are rare.

Just so we're clear, I'm not advocating piracy. When piracy stops, that means games have become affordable enough to appeal to the typical consumer, even here. Until then, people in developing countries WILL pirate not because they're lazy or they feel entitled. They can earn those games, but they still won't get them. It became the default type of gaming here, since the alternative is no gaming at all.

A reassuring thought is that, if the majority of pirates is from developing countries, with digital distribution they might turn into paying customers. I don't have a Steam account, but I suppose a service where you can find Mirror's Edge for $3 (if a poster here was telling the truth) could easily become the ONLY source for those gamers. Anything else is ridiculously more expensive. However, I also don't know if Steam prices are adjusted for the country you're in. I hope they aren't.

On the other hand, pirates from developed countries that can afford games, but don't because it's more convenient that way, they want to save every penny or whatever, won't go away. They have the alternative to buy games at fair prices, and they can, but they choose not to. How do you even convince them?

 

[DaOysterboy]

I haven't said that we buy computers easier than you do. They're cheaper, but still expensive for us. The price of the cheapest 1TB HDD is still around $100; some components are slightly cheaper, some aren't. Putting together a gaming computer is a matter of choosing brands and finding opportunities or sales, and high-end ones are simply out of the question altogether. I can live with that just fine, it takes some effort, a few years of savings and lots of research. We aren't "better off" in that aspect than you are by any means.

I have to apologize. I think the problem is that the originator of this thread isn't watching it anymore and my response was mainly to him. People were a bit suspicious that he can afford a gaming comp, and broadband but not a few games, and he made it sound like computers were just way cheap where he's from.

I never said I buy new games or AAA titles. I buy a few times a year and regularly on discount ($8-12). The expense isn't negligible, but I can afford it most years. I don't pirate much because I would be downloading the games I cannot afford, which happen to be the games I cannot run on my computer. I don't know a single person that buys $100 games simply because a person with that much disposable income can buy much more valuable things in Croatia. And people like that are rare.

Again OP literally mentioned ME2 and poor multiplayer support in his posts. It was circumstantial evidence, but it sounded a lot to me like he was playing brand new titles. Your model sounds a lot like mine... wait until price drops to a fraction of what it was released for then go ahead and reward yourself with a cheap game a couple times a year.

Just so we're clear, I'm not advocating piracy. When piracy stops, that means games have become affordable enough to appeal to the typical consumer, even here. Until then, people in developing countries WILL pirate not because they're lazy or they feel entitled. They can earn those games, but they still won't get them. It became the default type of gaming here, since the alternative is no gaming at all.

I hope that's the case. I also hope game prices drop for you guys, and piracy goes down with it as people pay for the games. But even so, there will be people in your country (just like in mine) who will pirate because they don't want to pay. Right now they hold the "there's no other way to game" excuse, but even taking their excuse away I have trouble believing that everyone's true colors are a sparkling shade of white. Some would buy, but I think you'd still see pretty significant piracy. And I'm not even going to take a guess at how many fall in each category. That's just fuel for a brand new flame war.

A reassuring thought is that, if the majority of pirates is from developing countries, with digital distribution they might turn into paying customers. I don't have a Steam account, but I suppose a service where you can find Mirror's Edge for $3 (if a poster here was telling the truth) could easily become the ONLY source for those gamers. Anything else is ridiculously more expensive. However, I also don't know if Steam prices are adjusted for the country you're in. I hope they aren't.

Check my edit in the last post. Sorry, but it looks like they are, which is unfortunate because it bypasses a lot of what actually drives up game prices. Get Steam anyway. I assume they still do their "midweek madness," "weekend deals," and the occasional "free weekend" play in other regions. Deus Ex and its sequel are 75% off right now. Older games, and I've only played the first, but damn it was good. Don't know how Steam works in other countries but in the states the client has buttons that will bring up a list of "games under $10" and "games under $5." Definitely my kind of list.

On the other hand, pirates from developed countries that can afford games, but don't because it's more convenient that way, they want to save every penny or whatever, won't go away. They have the alternative to buy games at fair prices, and they can, but they choose not to. How do you even convince them?

You don't, and I completely agree with you here. The problem is game devs see these people as your standard pirates. Sure they've heard the arguments that "If I could buy it I would, but I can't so I pirate." In your country maybe that is the primary reason. In mine it's not, even though lots of pirates will tout the argument and pirate anyway rather than save their money. Game devs are going to look at these people in my country and think "yes, you could afford the game but you're cheap so you pirate." Hence we have DRM: the intrusive, frustrating, customer-punishing solution to piracy.

...Wow, did this thread just come full circle?

 

[JonnWood]

Exactly. I remember that some games just never got pirated, ever. Most of my friends owned collector's editions of Baldur's Gate, Starcraft, Diablo II, etc. The gaming community is vast here, and even though it generates little income, it would generate NONE if piracy didn't exist.

So your gaming community is dependent upon breaking international law.

Interesting.

 

[numaiomul]

sry for my absence. too much work at school.

If I don't have money for the bus... I don't try to get on the bus... I fucking walk.

Imagine a world where you have the money for the bus, but no busses exist. And you and your countrymen hear about busses, and decide to build your own, but the bus company says 'Sorry, we own the right to busses, and decided not to build any in your area at this time.' and its illegal for your city to build its own busses because of the copyright on busses.
And now you have to walk every day, even though you know an alternative exists but is not allowed to you. Is it fair that because the bus company decides not to build busses in your area, that your city can never have them? Even if building them is no cost to the bus company?

This is not a defense of all piracy, only that where the pirate is willing and trying to pay for the item, but literally cannot due to restrictions based on geography or similar. Whether 1 or 100,000 pirate a game when they could not buy it even when trying, it wont make a penny's difference to the makers of the game.

This is also NOT the OP's situation. The OP will not pay for them even though he makes about $30 a month, and they ARE available in his country. And you know, if you don't like something that's going on in your country? Move out of that country? You know how many people immigrate every year to get out from under the oppression of their homelands?

The OP is at least in a country where he can have computers, high-speed internet and high school. They have colleges. He's not as poor as he claims to be and there are ways to fix his problem. He just wants us to agree that his pirating is ok.

okay so those 30$ i make have to go in a lot of stuff. expenses at school, different extra classes i take and my transportation costs. it's barely enough.
Moving out of the country isn't an option at 18 years old without high school finished.
guys if i were to think about piracy i would never say it's okay. it's the fact that here it's something we take for granted. we don't stop to think about how we take a game we just do it the process of piracy becoming something that's as natural as walking. i'm not saying it's okay and i'm not saying it's right but we are not pirates because we chose, we are because that's how we we're raised.
the point i'm desperately trying to make is that not all pirates are low-life's with no moral whose only intend are to steal kill the system by breaking laws. some are good people who pirate because that's the only think they know. who might buy games if given the opportunity.
there are three types of pirates:
people who buy games but finding out there's a pirated version they go and pirate (1)
people who pirate even though they have the money and they never considered about buying (2)
people who pirate because there's no alternative (3)
let's get something clear. not even one of them will stop pirating games except Full control against information but in that situation there are other issues. the (2) are the one's that actually crack the game and make a job of spreading it on the web. the (1) and (3) depend on (2). you can only convince (1) and (3) to stop not pirating games by:
- for (1) you provide of lot of content that's tied to an original game thus a pirated version doesn't stand up to the original version [drm does not count- pirates make private servers- just like WoW]
- for (3) you either wait until their respective country or financial situation or trade a game for their services. [steam with points received for ad clicks, you hold a server for crypted information for steam]
There are alternatives and ways to pass the legal confines of taxes.

Snip

I just want know,is Jack you?

It seems you are trying to dress up thievery.

let me guess your new to this thread and jumped from page 1 to page 11? :-/

 

[xDarc]

I wish these threads, where anti-piracy flamers bait those on the other side of the fence into suspensions under vague rules, would stop.

It IS hypocrisy to only allow one side of a discussion on a subject, punishing those on the side you don't like when they get the least bit uppity in response to flamers. Flamers who are indemnified, unfairly.

That's all I'm gonna say.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

I wish these threads, where anti-piracy flamers bait those on the other side of the fence into suspensions under vague rules, would stop.

It IS hypocrisy to only allow one side of a discussion on a subject, punishing those on the side you don't like when they get the least bit uppity in response to flamers. Flamers who are indemnified, unfairly.

That's all I'm gonna say.

I agree with you.

 

[JonnWood]

I wish these threads, where anti-piracy flamers bait those on the other side of the fence into suspensions under vague rules, would stop.

It IS hypocrisy to only allow one side of a discussion on a subject, punishing those on the side you don't like when they get the least bit uppity in response to flamers. Flamers who are indemnified, unfairly.

That's all I'm gonna say.

Example please. I'm being sardonic, but I still make points, and unlike my opposition I have never said everyone who disagrees with me has an IQ low enough to qualify as mentally retarded.

 

[DaOysterboy]

I wish these threads, where anti-piracy flamers bait those on the other side of the fence into suspensions under vague rules, would stop.

It IS hypocrisy to only allow one side of a discussion on a subject, punishing those on the side you don't like when they get the least bit uppity in response to flamers. Flamers who are indemnified, unfairly.

That's all I'm gonna say.

I agree with you.

Erm... just so we're clear... the "anti-piracy flamers" didn't start the thread. They just showed up to comment on a subject they feel strongly about. Granted, many express themselves by flaming, but hey this is the internet right? What did you really expect?

 

[DaOysterboy]

sry for my absence. too much work at school.

If I don't have money for the bus... I don't try to get on the bus... I fucking walk.

Imagine a world where you have the money for the bus, but no busses exist. And you and your countrymen hear about busses, and decide to build your own, but the bus company says 'Sorry, we own the right to busses, and decided not to build any in your area at this time.' and its illegal for your city to build its own busses because of the copyright on busses.
And now you have to walk every day, even though you know an alternative exists but is not allowed to you. Is it fair that because the bus company decides not to build busses in your area, that your city can never have them? Even if building them is no cost to the bus company?

This is not a defense of all piracy, only that where the pirate is willing and trying to pay for the item, but literally cannot due to restrictions based on geography or similar. Whether 1 or 100,000 pirate a game when they could not buy it even when trying, it wont make a penny's difference to the makers of the game.

This is also NOT the OP's situation. The OP will not pay for them even though he makes about $30 a month, and they ARE available in his country. And you know, if you don't like something that's going on in your country? Move out of that country? You know how many people immigrate every year to get out from under the oppression of their homelands?

The OP is at least in a country where he can have computers, high-speed internet and high school. They have colleges. He's not as poor as he claims to be and there are ways to fix his problem. He just wants us to agree that his pirating is ok.

okay so those 30$ i make have to go in a lot of stuff. expenses at school, different extra classes i take and my transportation costs. it's barely enough.
Moving out of the country isn't an option at 18 years old without high school finished.
guys if i were to think about piracy i would never say it's okay. it's the fact that here it's something we take for granted. we don't stop to think about how we take a game we just do it the process of piracy becoming something that's as natural as walking. i'm not saying it's okay and i'm not saying it's right but we are not pirates because we chose, we are because that's how we we're raised.
the point i'm desperately trying to make is that not all pirates are low-life's with no moral whose only intend are to steal kill the system by breaking laws. some are good people who pirate because that's the only think they know. who might buy games if given the opportunity.
there are three types of pirates:
people who buy games but finding out there's a pirated version they go and pirate (1)
people who pirate even though they have the money and they never considered about buying (2)
people who pirate because there's no alternative (3)
let's get something clear. not even one of them will stop pirating games except Full control against information but in that situation there are other issues. the (2) are the one's that actually crack the game and make a job of spreading it on the web. the (1) and (3) depend on (2). you can only convince (1) and (3) to stop not pirating games by:
- for (1) you provide of lot of content that's tied to an original game thus a pirated version doesn't stand up to the original version [drm does not count- pirates make private servers- just like WoW]
- for (3) you either wait until their respective country or financial situation or trade a game for their services. [steam with points received for ad clicks, you hold a server for crypted information for steam]
There are alternatives and ways to pass the legal confines of taxes.

Snip

I just want know,is Jack you?

It seems you are trying to dress up thievery.

let me guess your new to this thread and jumped from page 1 to page 11? :-/

One problem with your suggested solution is that Steam doesn't really have ads to click. That's really one of the reasons people like it so much. It doesn't add in a bunch of filler content that people don't want to see. You go to Steam for games, and they don't push non-game products down your throat. If you look at my recent posts, there's a large group on Steam that's miffed about price differentials in online distribution even though it cuts a lot of what drives up game prices. I can agree with these people because they support a (more) perfectly competitive market, without market barriers like tariffs and import fees. I just don't see piracy as the viable alternative. I understand people where you're from just grew up with it. I really don't hold a grudge or condemn you for doing it. But I still don't think that makes it right, and you really won't convince me that piracy is a good thing.

Let me ask you this though: If you could buy games at the same prices Americans or Russians pay (from what I've heard Russia and Thailand pay a lot less) would you pay full price?

 

[DaOysterboy]

you can only convince (1) and (3) to stop not pirating games by:
- for (1) you provide of lot of content that's tied to an original game thus a pirated version doesn't stand up to the original version [drm does not count- pirates make private servers- just like WoW]

I know I'm just begging to get flamed for saying this, but most pirated games ARE the full version. If they aren't you didn't look very hard or a new hack with workarounds for any original content is well on its way. The amount of content isn't really an issue to pirates. Nobody has EVER failed to crack a game "because it was just too damn big." Please don't complain about how your hacks are substandard as that's only going to enrage the community here more. Your solution for group 1 really doesn't seem like any solution to me. At all.

There are alternatives and ways to pass the legal confines of taxes.

Passing the legal confines of taxes is known as "tax evasion" or "tax fraud" in most countries. Governments don't like it and tend to put you in prison for it. The issue isn't "how do we not pay taxes?" You'll summon the banhammer with careless comments like that. The real issue is "how do we make a perfectly competitive global market?" Yeah American's pay less, but with digital distribution, the prices should now be global with a mild tax for right to distribute in a region. Prices where you're at are artificially inflated and THAT is an issue I could jump on the bandwagon for. Piracy? Not so much.

 

[numaiomul]

if prices on games droped in my country yes i would buy them multiplayer is what pirated games will always lack. you can't compare private servers from wow or cod4 with the global network of the original. i don't think i'd buy AAA titles [may from time to time] but a small refresh to my gaming library would be nice [starcraft+expansion, diablo 2+expansion, halo 2] games that i really enjoy multiplayer.
i understand that steam has almost zero ads and stuff but somewhere a special tab where is a list of ads, each add gives x points and games y costs z amount of points. it wouldn't hurt the average consume an extra tab that's carefully places, we will have an alternative to gaming [a good alternative], steam will sell a couple of more games, the developers will be happy and so will the ad people
when i was saying that there are alternatives to passing legal confines i wasn't referring to something illegal. maybe something that isn't yet specified, a blank zone. that's not illegal just immoral. besides i'm not stupid enough to think that a publisher will do something illegal for my gaming needs...

 

[Dr. Doctor]

Guess what? It isn't. It's just pathetic. Have a real discussion about Piracy instead of trying to paint up a biased picture of it.

let's have a real discusion i'm not pro-piracy but i'm anti-anti-piracy

If Jack is so poor, why doesn't he get a fucking job instead of playing video games all day?

if you want to talk in a forum please read previous posts before jumping head first in a conversion

I believe "Jack" just got owned.

did u really want to say a useles opinion on a serious subject ? :-/

Stealing is wrong. Piracy is stealing. /thread.

Real mature Jesus and sorry because you are a saint and are pure of heart and never in your life have you done anything wrong.

I don't really feel like wading through 100+ posts about you trying to justify your need to feel privileged. The only reason I can think of that you wouldn't have a job is because you're too young. And if that's the case, then why the fuck can you afford a computer and high speed internet, but not food? Like I said before (and you, for some reason, ignored), if you have to justify something, especially to strangers, you know it's wrong.

An in regards to what you said about whateverhisnamewas, it's not really a mistake if you keep doing it. My assessment is that you are too young to know what the fuck you're talking about, so stop talking about it.