let's debate piracy and the hypocrisy behind it

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RathWolf

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Apr 14, 2009
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i understand that you do not pay for the actual game but for the hours of work you put into that game but there is no such thing as POTENTIAL money based on how many times it was downloaded so stop it with the money lost because of piracy. there is no scientific way to find out how much money is lost because of piracy. everything is speculation.
Yes, there is such a thing as POTENTIAL money, unless you're claiming that not even ONE pirate would have bought the game legally if they didn't have the free alternative, which would be completely naive. It doesn't matter how MUCH money is lost, the fact remains that there IS money lost in sales due to piracy.

piracy is bad but so is sex and alcohol drinking underaged that doesn't stop people from doing it. and guess what, in those 2 situations adults act like the devil himself is in his child thus making the situation worse [more drinking and sex to relieve stress from fights with parents].
So, let me get this straight, because other people do bad things, it's okay for you to do bad things. Yeah, no.

piracy will forever be a problem but people can make it worse [by putting DRM sistems and the rest of stuff that has the draw-back of BUYING customers to pirate to get rid of the DRM feature] or accept it and treat it accordingly.
While DRM is by no means desirable, it doesn't put pirates in the right. The fact remains that DRM has gotten more and more restrictive BECAUSE of piracy.

i heard a game company actually went on torrent websites and gave advice in the comments section of their game. they said their sales we're not radically different but still a bit better.
That was ACE Team, a small independent developer, and while that certainly sounds nice, perhaps I should point you to the other side of the spectrum. Let's look at 2D Boy, company comprised of two people. They made a title you might know, "World of Goo", and went out of the way to remove all DRM. It has a 90% piracy rate. Hmm.
 

numaiomul

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Oct 18, 2009
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omega_peaches said:
Also, How about Jack spends time looking for more jobs instead of surfing forums like The Uscapist.
i thought we already established the job situation but next time please be more attentive to the earlier posts
That said:
Piracy is STEALING.

Don't try and excuse it, it is against the law and encourages comapanies like Ubisoft to create annoying DRM's that patronize the good law abiding user who doesn't steal games.

Don't make me show you those piracy ad's if you need more explaining.

Also Jack is an idiot, Good day Sir!
Good Sir thank you again for saying what me and a couple of anti-piracy lieutenants already said. piracy is STEALING. but just saying that won't make it go away :p and and please show me the ad's of people being arrested by police men while me in my country i see police men beaten mercilessly with crowbars. That will really get me going.
 

Ushandur

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Jul 20, 2009
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go go anti piracy crusaders.
you fail :3
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus.ars
 

chronobreak

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Sep 6, 2008
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Marq said:
I pirate because I'm a ************. I don't skip around it and I don't deny it.

You wanna talk hypocrisy? How about the Escapist users being so venomously anti-piracy, and yet so delightfully supportive of illicit drugs. Way to support the crime industry, angels.
One has nothing to do with the other. People here aren't claiming they are saints, rather the majority stands behind the idea that piracy is stealing, and stealing is wrong. Don't try to point out red herrings and false analogies because you are in the minority opinion. Maybe the majority of people here don't mind if people do drugs, but they don't like piracy. It isn't hypocrisy to have an opinion.

This thread has degenerated into uselessness, nobody is going to get anywhere. Maybe we should all just keep our opinions to ourselves, especially those of you who blatantly admit breaking the law, or at very least seem proud of a morally reprehensible act. I don't think we, as a community, need to tolerate people coming in here telling everyone they are involved in illegal activity.
 

Babitz

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Jan 18, 2010
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atomictoast said:
Your fictional character can afford a computer and full speed internet?

I see some contradictions in this testimony.
Not really. In underdeveloped countries computers, food, internet and basically all other stuff are a lot cheaper then in the US or such. However, the games maintain high prices from the aforementioned countries with higher standards. It's not fair.

numaiomul said:
Where is Jack from?
 

PhiMed

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Nov 26, 2008
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Marq said:
I pirate because I'm a ************. I don't skip around it and I don't deny it.

You wanna talk hypocrisy? How about the Escapist users being so venomously anti-piracy, and yet so delightfully supportive of illicit drugs. Way to support the crime industry, angels.
Crime, in and of itself, is an industry? Good to know.

But to your statement, I don't do drugs, but I think they should be legal, because enforcement of drug laws is expensive an fruitless. If they were legal, it wouldn't be a crime to use them, we wouldn't have so many people in prison for drug offenses, and we'd have a lot more money for unimportant things... you know, like schools. Doing drugs is bad, but the current laws surrounding them are pointless, damaging, and cost-ineffective. They don't decrease use, they enrich criminals, they destroy families, and they bankrupt governments.

So holding that position while also saying that Jack is a douchebag makes me a hypocrite?

Good argument, dude!
 

Bludge

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Jul 19, 2009
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Here is a fictional character i will enter into this little debacle.

John.

John has a job but doesnt earn that much, he is surviving alright but he finds himself hard up sometimes.
John is a pirate, he loves games, and loves playing them but he cant bring himself to pay the extortionate amounts these companies charge for their games.
Especially as most of them really arent worth the money.
The games John does think are worth the money, he will buy, usually the special edition versions etc.

John is also a musician, and has made a lot of music with various bands. It has always been his dream to make money from his music, but with piracy, he realises that this probably wont happen even if he does get signed. Johns stance on this is that he would rather people pirated his music and enjoyed it, then didnt buy it because of whatever reason, and it never got listened to by anyone.

A downloaded copy of a game does not mean 1 lost sale. the people who are going to buy the game will buy it regardless of what the pirates do, and the people who wont buy the game wont buy it regardless of wether or not it is available on the internet.

It doesnt make piracy right, but its exactly the same as it always has been, just across a different spectrum. and at least there are less people making money from pirated wares.
 

Baby Tea

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Sep 18, 2008
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Doitpow said:
But how about this argument, Suppose Piracy is inherently immoral, abhorrent even. Suppose you manage to arrest and fine every single pirate in the world. You don't think you're going to alienate your market? at all?
Well if the 'pirating doesn't equal lost sales' argument holds any truth, then you won't alienate anyone.
After all, the people pirating were never customers in the first place.

To actually answer the question: No. I don't. I think if piracy was gone, then industries would be forced to put out better product, as people wouldn't buy what they didn't like, and they wouldn't have a leg to stand on ("Piracy is killing us!") when it comes to excuses. Piracy may not be directly killing the gaming industry, but what it DOES do is make a wonderful scapegoat excuse for the publishers who put out crap and come up with intrusive, and awful DRM.

Pirates don't like DRM? Neither do paying customers.
But I can guarantee you they aren't applying DRM because people legitimately bought the product.
 

TPiddy

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Aug 28, 2009
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Marq said:
I pirate because I'm a ************. I don't skip around it and I don't deny it.

You wanna talk hypocrisy? How about the Escapist users being so venomously anti-piracy, and yet so delightfully supportive of illicit drugs. Way to support the crime industry, angels.
Well, I don't support illicit drugs either.... but I think most people here take the stance on piracy that...

"If I have to pay for it, you should to".

And really, what's wrong with that stance? I mean, if everyone were to pirate then the gaming companies would make no money and the industry would collapse. So we can't say that no one should have to pay for it. So then the option becomes... well, the people who can afford to pay for it, everyone else can have it for free... except there's no qualification to determine whether someone can afford to, meaning that people who have plenty of money get to pirate as well. There is no hard and fast rule that can apply to every situation.

So why should some other fucker get something for free that I have to pay for because my moral compass works a little better than his does? Of course me and people like me are naturally going to be pissed at people getting a free ride off our backs.
 

joshthor

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Aug 18, 2009
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jack is a jack-ass...haha... see what i did there? anywho givin the incredible amount of work going into making these games they deserve money for thier efforts. i dont care if you think they dont deserve it if you are enjoying their work (enjoying as in taking it) you need to pay up.
 

geddydisciple

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Aug 25, 2008
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zakski said:
geddydisciple said:
nobody is going to buy a game after playing through a pirated version so yes it does effect sales.
I beg to differ, a lot of those were never gonna buy it in the first place and I know people who have gone out and bought games they have pirated

I shouldn't have said that with such a black and white perspective. Most pirates were never going to buy the game in the first place, however say a game like MW2 was pirated 4 million times. Enough of those people would have purchased the game if stealing the game were not an option to effect sales. Also, a small percentile of the people who pirate the game may go out and pay for it later but not enough to make up for the sales lost due to piracy in general. I am actually one of those people, I pirated one game in my whole life and that was assassin's creed but i did go out and buy it later.
 

chronobreak

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Sep 6, 2008
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Baby Tea said:
Piracy may not be directly killing the gaming industry, but what it DOES do is make a wonderful scapegoat excuse for the publishers who put out crap and come up with intrusive, and awful DRM.

Pirates don't like DRM? Neither do paying customers.
But I can guarantee you they aren't applying DRM because people legitimately bought the product.
It is very cyclical. When the DRM is applied, people will pirate it out of spite because they don't agree with it, but it is there for that very reason in the first place. Piracy begets more piracy, and I don't see how anyone can think it hasn't had a major effect on the gaming industry.
 

Babitz

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Jan 18, 2010
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As I've said countless times before: Piracy is underrated. Piracy did more good things for gaming (and music) than any DRM or other bullshit. I've elaborated my point in a few topics already and I'm not in the mood to repeat myself.

All of you who look at us poor people from under developed countries from a moral high ground are hypocrites.
 

TPiddy

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Aug 28, 2009
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Serathen said:
Ah, Piracy. The act of free digital distribution of a product that can be bought. Some say should be bought, but that's a bit too much inflection, I will leave it with "can". So, that's what piracy is. Now, what's being stolen?
Piracy, in this context, is the theft of a video game. A video game is the product of time and money. The money is spent mostly on the people who made the game, and some is spent on the act of notifying the rest of the world that the game exists. The time is spent by a collection of creative minds, who each individually produce the small part of a greater whole. A collaboration of artists.
Artist, in this context, referring to the art of engineering (the artistry in a device which performs the most functions with the greatest simplicity). Or of actual art, in the case of the graphic designers. I've done some coding myself, and I currently work as a writer for a small independent game studio, so I understand the general sense of heroic accomplishment of completing a particularly nasty bit of programming. It's very similar to finishing a beautifully orchestrated short story. The artistic connection is hardly a stretch of the imagination.
Alright, so, the makers of the games are artists. The ultimate purpose of the true artist is their art. They require no funds, only the materials to create more art. If you don't believe me, well, then talk to some painters. Or read the play My Name is Asher Lev. (Or see the play, if you're awesome.)
So, if all games are created by artists, then after the point that the artists can finish their next piece of art, piracy is morally correct, right? I mean, the artists ultimately want their art to be enjoyed by as many people as possible, damn the repercussions! Piracy is helping them!

At this point, we re-enter the real world.

Capitalism is a system of commerce in which anything that anyone will buy is a tangible product that can--indeed, should--be sold. In this world, the value of an object is weighed in how much people are willing to pay for it. It is a cold and brutal world at times, because in this world human morality and empathy has a pricetag. You can only convince the powerful forces of Capitalism to humane action by offering tax credits, after all.
Game companies run on Capitalism. The artists they employ are hired by businessmen to create a product. The product's worth is not measured by it's artistic value as a source of entertainment, but it's weight in capital. If a given game is not worth enough cold, hard cash, then the businessmen that allow the artists to produce their art will deem the artists as a source of negative cash flow, and will stop supporting the artists. And the artists NEED their support. They need money, facilities, advertising, and training: their paint and canvas.
At this point, the pirate enters the equation.
The artists have a system of ensuring that their product is worth enough money that the businessmen will keep giving them their support. Pirates subvert that system for whatever reason. That's the pragmatist's prospective, of course. Pirates might have great reasons. But whatever those reasons are, they subvert this system and then the artists lose the support they need, and can no longer produce their art.

In the perfect world, the businessman does not exist. But in the pragmatist's reality, he's there, and he allows what we all have to be. If the artist truly didn't want or need the money that he charges, then he wouldn't charge the money.
So, to the ever-fictional Jack, I say this: your desire to play games is understandable. Games exist to be played. But you must be aware of what your actions are costing the world. We all lose something beautiful when you deny the artists their art.
There are games out there that are free, though. You just have to look for them. They aren't as pretty, or as popular. But they're still created by artists, who care deeply about spreading their art to the world. Try hunting down independent games that you can actually afford. It's not the same, but if you have to make a choice, then remember the pragmatist. Because we all want the perfect world, but the pragmatist is still right.

P.S.(This is running on the assumption that all game developers are working solely because they love games, and want to make the best games ever made. There's a grain of truth to that, but many developers are also businessmen. They makes games because they are a profit. However, they are able to make really great games, regardless of their reasons. But they only make games while it's a profit. So if you want to continue to enjoy great games, you have to support them, or their games get less great, and their systems for ensuring that their games remain profitable become more and more draconian. Best to follow their rules before they stop playing the game, and you lose half your major studios.)

P.P.S. (Yeah, this was an avert for supporting independent game developers, which I am one of. I am utterly shameless and unrepentant.)
As a fellow digital artist.... I have to say.... beautifully put...
 

Danglybits

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Oct 31, 2008
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Doitpow said:
Danglybits said:
Did you pay for the original? Did you pay for the copy you made? The art gallery argument really doesn't apply to most video games or anything that is widely available, you can access Spore and ME easily. You just have to give someone money to do so.
As I say, we'll never agree.

But how about this argument, Suppose Piracy is inherently immoral, abhorrent even. Suppose you manage to arrest and fine every single pirate in the world. You don't think you're going to alienate your market? at all?
I didn't say anything about a solution and piracy is hardly a great evil in the grand scheme of crime. Let's just not pretend that it isn't stealing; I don't care if people who pirate beat themselves with hangers in their closets for their transgressions or have tabs on their browsers labeled 'piracy' with little smiley faces, but let's not kid ourselves about what we're doing.