let's debate piracy and the hypocrisy behind it

[Awexsome]

Except that's a bit of a false analogy. A more correct one would be: A person is selling art on the street. Now, as the creator, he already has a copy, and thus an extra copy provides no benefit for him. You really want that piece of art. Now, you could pay him in exchange for the results his hard work, but instead, you walk up, pull out your magic wand, make a duplicate of his painting, and walk off with it. He has not benefited at all, whereas if you didn't have your wand, you might have actually paid him.

That's the best analogy to it I've heard. Ever. Pretty much sums up my view on the whole thing.

 

[direkiller]

Okey, this is pro-piracy propaganda. You try and paint up a worst case scenario so your point is more valid.

Piracy is bad for the gaming industry. That's a fact. If not because it lowers sales, then because it increases paranoia with companies like Ubisoft (Read: Latest DRM) If you support it or not is a matter of morals.

Like Audio Cassettes were bad for the music industry? or like VHS was bad for the film industry?

Stealing is wrong. Piracy is stealing. /thread.

http://img.megaleecher.net/uploads/piracy-is-theft.jpg


And as to those who say Pirates are just leaches...I just refer you to....
http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/04/study-pirates-buy-tons-more-music-than-average-folks.ars
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music

Consider an art gallery. Everyone can go in for free. Some people buy it. Everyone enjoys it. Dismantling internet piracy is like burning down this gallery, fewer people will buy the art, and far fewer will even see it.


But we'll never agree, this argument has gone on for centuries, and there's no way in hell one side is going to back down so screw it.

So if i copy a $100 bill insted of stealing its less wrong. o wait no it isit

OT: If game companys arnt willing to sell to the demograpic in the pllipines(insert outher poor country with internet access) it dont affect me none

Though I do find torrent sites come in handy for somethings like i have pirated coppys of games I use to own a long time ago and felt like playing 5+years down the line for mech commander i even found my old CD key so there are times torrents come in handy but i tend to buy games after finding out if they are any good

 

[shadow skill]

Calling Piracy stealing is just hype for effect. I thought we'd sorted all this out. Can people be a bit more mature and stop doing this maybe?

Obviously not. If you walk into a book store pick up a book on the shelf and sit down and read the whole thing you are not a thief. Oh and for the record no content creator or distributor can be said to have the right to make a profit.

That's a bit of a false analogy. Piracy is more akin to walking into a bookstore, picking up a book, making a copy of each page, and then walking out.

Also, what? You're saying people who work hard making content don't have a right to be rewarded for their effort?

No it isn't a false analogy. The underlying point is that you enjoyed the product and did not buy it. By the time you have enjoyed the product all that needs to happen has already happened. The content provider hasn't lost the book have they?

They did not lose the book but you did not pay to take the book home and read it either. What is the point of walking into a bookstore and reading the entire book with no thought on purchasing it? If someone does not want to buy the book they could just as easily go to their local library and check the book out.

Not all books are available at the library. Bookstores nowadays have friggin cafes inside. You don't usually pay (At least not directly.) to take any book from a public library either. You certainly are not called a thief if you borrow your friend's favorite game or DVD. If he or she simply gives it to you, you are not called a thief either.

 

[RathWolf]

Calling Piracy stealing is just hype for effect. I thought we'd sorted all this out. Can people be a bit more mature and stop doing this maybe?

Obviously not. If you walk into a book store pick up a book on the shelf and sit down and read the whole thing you are not a thief. Oh and for the record no content creator or distributor can be said to have the right to make a profit.

That's a bit of a false analogy. Piracy is more akin to walking into a bookstore, picking up a book, making a copy of each page, and then walking out.

Also, what? You're saying people who work hard making content don't have a right to be rewarded for their effort?

No it isn't a false analogy. The underlying point is that you enjoyed the product and did not buy it. By the time you have enjoyed the product all that needs to happen has already happened. The content provider hasn't lost the book have they?

No, the difference is, you gained a copy of that product without paying for it. While the content provider may still have the original, that does nothing for them. The content provider has received no compensation despite you having received something from them. This is wrong.

So you haven't received anything by reading the book? They were not compensated for your reading the book either.

No, see, this is why your original post was a false analogy. You do not just read the book and leave. You make a copy and take it with you without paying the provider anything. You have obtained a copy that should have been paid for. Now another person walks in, makes a copy, and pays the provider for it. That is a normal customer. I realize trying to apply digital distribution to a physical example is a bit off, but the difference should be clear.

Piracy in digital distribution is akin to stealing. Not exactly the same, but close enough.

 

[Assassin Xaero]

1. Piracy is NOT theft. Piracy is piracy. No physical game is taken from another person, a copy is made.

Fail.

Theft - "the act of stealing"
Stealing - Comes from the word steal (obviously).
Steal [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steal] - "to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force"

Dictionary: 1
You: 0

 

[Beckbat]

The real question is: Why is piracy illegal? Supposedly it is because it leads to lost revenue for those who create the content. YES, in much the same way that libraries lead to lost revenue for books and are thus illegal. OH WAIT. To read an interesting viewpoint on online piracy from a content creator in general look up Eric Flint and the Baen Free Library (baen.com/library).

 

[Petromir]

Calling Piracy stealing is just hype for effect. I thought we'd sorted all this out. Can people be a bit more mature and stop doing this maybe?

When and where was this sorted out? Link please.
Explain how thinking a pirate isn't a thief makes us more mature too please.

theft: 'the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.' Dictionary.com. It is not theft if nothing is taken away. It is still wrong in some cases, but not theft. In a lot of cases, piracy is victimless and therefore, as far as my morals are concerned, perfectly ok in those.

And because in the more mature, intelligent debates about piracy even the people who are strongly against piracy in all forms accept that piracy is not theft. Conceding to this does not mean you are saying it is ok.

Dictionary defintions are not the only place where you should be looking, from the theft act;

(1) "Property" includes money and all oter property, real or personal including things in action and other intangible property.

Sounds like under your dictionary defintion, you are carrying away intangiable property (data).

 

[miguelle]

Gaming industry looses money because of piracy. AHAHAHAHA

One question:

How much money did only COD:MW2 make? Over $1 billion?

 

[[BDS]Omega]

2nd, I'll admit right now I'm an EX-Pirate... yea EX as in I don't no more, I've learned in the end it just aint worth it, especially if you get caught. I Was never caught but maybe sense dropped into my head or maybe it was that I found that Owning the game rather than stealing it made it feel much better, Also I Discovered Steam and there offers all the time and decent pricing, sure im not always buying the latest releases, in fact latest release I own is Sonic and Sega All stars. I Destroyed all my illegal copies but the ones I enjoyed I listed them down and will buy them on steam or on disc if need be. But putting aside the feeling of owning the game look at say left 4 dead SP Only really illegally without having to mess around a lot with VPN's and console commands, Real legal copy its just 4 clicks!

I Stopped pirating and aint looked back I Play Retail real server World of Warcraft not Private Server anymore and don't have any illegal PC Games, Ya know I feel better this way Im paying the people that did there job to make this game if no one paid for the game how they going to continue to make them? id go as far as to say that pirates are taking the cloths of the game industry's workers backs and food outta them and there family's mouths.

I am in a similar situation as you, as i used to pirate games in preference to buying them, with the exception of games that I truly was looking forward to or had some reason to buy the retail copy (ie good multiplayer or developers supporting their product with DLC). But Steam i think was the reason that i stopped pirating games. One of the first things i noticed with games i found on steam was a developer that actually seemed to care about the quality of they put their name on in contrast to the EA model of release as many games as fast as possible regardless of quality. Seeing the obvious effort Valve put into games like HL2, its episodes and Portal made me appreciate the effort that they put into their games and i actually wanted to reward their superior efforts, so i bought more Valve games like L4D, and i started playing TF2.

To my surprise, after i bought these games (through steam) not only were these games better than the drivel than i used to find, Valve seemed to reward people for playing the games by releasing more stuff for their games at no cost to me. How revolutionary, a game maker that wants you to keep playing their games after you already gave them money so they give you more content. Steam did a lot for promoting legal game purchasing. If one stops to think, yes steam is a form of DRM, but for me its passive and doesnt do anything to bother me (limited installations, constant connection, rootkit, etc) and therefore i stop thinking of it as DRM and just play my games, whenever and wherever i want.

Lastly, piracy is a crime but is not the same as stealing. Using the conventional idea of stealing (for example a car) by doing this you deprive the owner of said car of his vehicle and he can no longer use it. The car maker doesnt care because they already have the owner's money. With piracy it does not deprive anyone of their own legally acquired copy like conventional theft but it still means the maker doesnt get the money for their product. Oddly enough wikipedia provides a nice clear distinction between these two shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_piracy#Comparison_to_theft

 

[secretsantaone]

1. Piracy is NOT theft. Piracy is piracy. No physical game is taken from another person, a copy is made.

Ok, if you want to get into the pure technical definition of it... but it's still immoral and illegal.

Illegal, yes. Immoral is an opinion. Piracy is closer to counterfeiting than theft, in a virtual sense.

2. The apathy factor. If someone pirates a game, it does not necesarily mean they would buy the game if piracy wasn't an option, they wouldn't feel stongly enough to spend money. Thus not all incidents of piracy would result in lost sales.

If we can't make the assumption that a pirated copy is a lost sale then you can't make the assumption that it isn't a lost sale. The fact remains that a reasonable percentage would likely buy the game because they obviously like it enough to want to play it. It's certainly not 100%, but it's certainly not 0% either, and that is still lost money for the devs.

Good thing I didn't mention any absolutes then. Many say that all piracy results in lost sales, I was just debunking the absolute.

3. Piracy has the same effect on game developers as renting games or buying used games, they don't get a single penny from them. These two are perfectly legal.

Except for the fact that rental retailers have to PURCHASE copies of the games, meaning more sales for the Dev. rental retailers also acquire copies for re-sale and provide another advertising outlet for the devs. This arrangement is still mutually beneficial.

The crackers buy the game first as well.

4. Some pirates use piracy as a demo, particularly on games that lack one. Many pirates later buy a copy of the game to support the devs. Not all piracy results in 'lost potential sales'.

So you're basically countering your own point #2 then?

Not really, it varies depending on the person. If 'average sequel 2' came out, a pirate may pirate it because they wouldn't pay for it otherwise. If 'awesome game: the awesomeness' came out, a pirate may pirate it to see if it lives up to the hype before buying it.

 

[Mr. In-between]

Snip

I have to write a term paper for my ethics class based on an issue we haven't covered this semester & you just gave me a really great idea. This is probably because you can present a valid argument without resorting to the level of mental retardation that produces responses such as: "LOL I LIKE FPS AND WHEN U PIRATE FPS GAMES THEN THE DEVELOPERS LOOSE MONEY AND WONT MAKE N E MORE GAMES 4 ME AND MY CPL PALZ, SO PWNED!"

People really need to get a clue and learn how to present their opinions in a fashion that doesn't make them look like a thirteen year old on XBOX Live.

 

[TPiddy]

The real question is: Why is piracy illegal? Supposedly it is because it leads to lost revenue for those who create the content. YES, in much the same way that libraries lead to lost revenue for books and are thus illegal. OH WAIT. To read an interesting viewpoint on online piracy from a content creator in general look up Eric Flint and the Baen Free Library (baen.com/library).

Most libraries either purchase books or carry books that they have been given the rights to distribute, either through the expiry of the author's IP rights (anything that's over 100 years old I think it is) or by having the items being donated by the author / publisher. Trying to imply that libraries are just like pirating is ridiculous.

As a side note.... most libraries are now offering games as well... sure you won't get the latest and greatest but if you're strapped for cash it's still a good way to go.

Also, let's not forget that libraries are publicly funded institutions and are not for profit.

 

[Petromir]

The real question is: Why is piracy illegal? Supposedly it is because it leads to lost revenue for those who create the content. YES, in much the same way that libraries lead to lost revenue for books and are thus illegal. OH WAIT. To read an interesting viewpoint on online piracy from a content creator in general look up Eric Flint and the Baen Free Library (baen.com/library).

You do realise that each time a book is taken out from a libary money is paid to the those who'd get the money from a purchase, its not as much as they get from a sale, but it adds up.

 

[secretsantaone]

1. Piracy is NOT theft. Piracy is piracy. No physical game is taken from another person, a copy is made.

Fail.

Theft - "the act of stealing"
Stealing - Comes from the word steal (obviously).
Steal [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steal] - "to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force"

Dictionary: 1
You: 0

Do you take the property of another?

No?

No, you make a copy. It's not like someone walking into your house and taking your game.

 

[lwm3398]

Jack has no right to or need for these games, though. What he should do is be smart and save up the last bit of those $30 for some time, then, if he can, buy some cheap used games and a shit console? That's how he should do it. And how does he have time for games if his family is doing so bad? Why is he not working in all his spare time, scrounging for pennies wherever pennies can be scrounged for? Jack is a piece of shit who has no idea what money should be used for and what's important in life. Jack should be taught a lesson about life and what is needed for it to be good.