Let's play a game about sex and sexism.

[Kopikatsu]

Following the latest Jimquisition, I noted many of the comments complaining about the game industry's attitude that they don't use female protagonists because they don't sell. Let's put that to the test with a bit of data, eh? Anyone is feel free to contribute any relevant data or information, and I'll say now that my numbers are from VGChartz. Also, I have only chosen the first three games that came to mind in no particular order. Hence the offer for other people to contribute.

Small note: I didn't include Portal in the female list because Chell's gender is entirely cosmetic. She's a silent protagonist in an FPS. I don't count Samus as a real female character in most of her games for the same reason. Or Gordon Freeman as a male one for that matter.

Male Dominated Games:
Halo: Combat Evolved: 6.43 Million
Gears of War 1: 5.99 Million
Medal of Honor: Warfighter: 1.94 Million

Female Dominated Games:
Tomb Raider ('13): 1.44 Million
Mirror's Edge: 2.20 Million
Parasite Eve: 2.10 Million

Bothie Games: (For these, I want everyone to keep in mind that according to Bioware, only 18% of the people who played ME3 completed the game as FemShep. So even these should all be heavily male dominated)
Dragon Age: Origins: 4.37 Million
Mass Effect 2: 4.52 Million
TES V: Skyrim: 14.42 Million

I also want to point out that Parasite Eve, Gears of War, and Halo: Combat Evolved are all console exclusive.

 

[Nepukadnezzar]

There was a pretty interesting post on PENNY ARCADE REPORT according to this topic.
It is about publishers and marketing, please read it ... I cannot find it though.

EDIT:

Ha, in your face internet

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them

 

[Toxic Sniper]

Samus is voiced (And pretty obviously voiced, she grunts a lot when she gets bumped around by missiles and melee attacks) in the Prime series and Other M, she has a large section outside the power suit in Zero Mission, and she has narration in Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. There's also that whole death animation in the 2D games and Other M after Super Metroid. It's kinda hard to claim that her gender is any more cosmetic than the Master Chief's.

Also, Halo CE isn't console exclusive.

 

[tippy2k2]

Male Dominated Games:
Halo: Combat Evolved: 6.43 Million
Gears of War 1: 5.99 Million
Medal of Honor: Warfighter: 1.94 Million

Female Dominated Games:
Tomb Raider ('13): 1.44 Million
Mirror's Edge: 2.20 Million
Parasite Eve: 2.10 Million

I don't want to poke a hole in the boat before it even gets out of the harbor (I think this idea is an interesting one) but this isn't a very fair comparisson. The "male" games and the "female" games you have listed are VERY different games. Halo, Gears, and Medal are all shooters, a very popular genre. Tomb Raider is brand new, Mirror's Edge was a (half-success) experimental game, and Parasite Eve is a very niche JRPG.

Unfortunately, it goes back to what Jim was talking about in the video; chicken or the egg. We don't have a lot of female-centered games to use as comparison and the one's we do have generally don't get the same kind of support.

If you give Tomb Raider a bit more time for sales, I think that compared with Uncharted (since the're both relatively similar) would work nice.

EDIT:
Actually, here, this kind of works now (data from VGchartz.com)
Uncharted 1: 4.55 Million global copies
Tomb Raider: 1.44 Million global copies

Now keep in mind that Uncharted came out in 2007 and was a PS3 exclusive.

 

[Vegosiux]

But...but...

But I was expecting something along the lines of "Take a shot when..."

However, the problem here is that if we want to really "put it to the test", correlation will simply not be enough, we'd need to prove a causal link as well.

That doesn't mean I'm pretending the problem doesn't exist; what I'm saying is that we need to first establish just how much of a factor the protagonist's gender is in the process of purchasing decisions. If devs get told by publishers that "Male protagonists sell better", the next logical step would be to do some market research to see to what extent and why.

Yes, I'm sure we can handwave it and go on about "sexually insecure teenage boys", but that's not going to get us anywhere. I do pretty much agree with Jim it's a chicken or egg scene, or maybe it's scrambled eggs with chicken.

I suppose the hulking thirty-something gun-toting brown-haired grizzled "badass" archetype is the lowest common denominator, but, bleh. I don't understand what the appeal is.

 

[Erttheking]

Is it really fair to compare a new release, an experiment, and whatever the hell that third game is to two of Microsoft's killer apps? Warfigher is fair, because they're on level ground with the games you listed for females, but Gears of War and Halo are insanely popular titles, not because they have male characters, but because they're marketed and hyped up the bum. I guess it could tie back into publishers not supporting female characters enough though.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Samus is voiced (And pretty obviously voiced, she grunts a lot when she gets bumped around by missiles and melee attacks) in the Prime series and Other M, she has a large section outside the power suit in Zero Mission, and she has narration in Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. There's also that whole death animation in the 2D games and Other M after Super Metroid. It's kinda hard to claim that her gender is any more cosmetic than the Master Chief's.

Also, Halo CE isn't console exclusive.

Eh, I didn't include the PC version in the number. Close enough.

That doesn't mean I'm pretending the problem doesn't exist; what I'm saying is that we need to first establish just how much of a factor the protagonist's gender is in the process of purchasing decisions. If devs get told by publishers that "Male protagonists sell better", the next logical step would be to do some market research to see to what extent and why.

While it's far from definitive, but doesn't Mass Effect 3 tell us that? Fem Shep had the better voice actor by far (This is a fairly objective statement, I think. Sorry, Male Shep, you just ain't got it.), better romance options (I say that as a straight male), and overall better lines (there's minor variations between genders), but only 18% of the players who finished the game used her.

Unless you want to make the point that actiony-killy is primarily a guy thing (I do recall at least one person saying that war/killing/strategy are part of the 'male power fantasy'), in which case it's self-perpetuating. The market is full of shooters and the like because they sell super well. Many of the people who play these games are probably men.

The way to change this would be to start pushing games tailored towards women, but that would require taking a financial hit for as long as it takes for those games to start becoming as popular as Call of Duty and the like (if they ever do). You'll never, ever find a publisher willing to do that. They are explicitly there to make money on the investments they make.

Is it really fair to compare a new release, an experiment, and whatever the hell that third game is to two of Microsoft's killer apps? Warfigher is fair, because they're on level ground with the games you listed for females, but Gears of War and Halo are insanely popular titles, not because they have male characters, but because they're marketed and hyped up the bum. I guess it could tie back into publishers not supporting female characters enough though.

I disagree. I included Warfighter specifically because it was not on the level of the female games mentioned. It was panned by critics and the gaming community as a whole and even EA said 'This game got so fucked we can't even use the IP anymore'. And still it sold on comparable levels as Tomb Raider and Mirror's Edge. That says a lot, I think.

Edit: And how do you not know what Parasite Eve is?! It's RPG Resident Evil. It was SO GOOD.

 

[Kopikatsu]

-stuff-

Well, I wasn't actually aware of that particular brand of Bioshock controversy. Guess I should start try kicking up a shitstorm every time another soulless meat wall stars in a shooter, because I find them offensive.

In any case...better comparison that I don't think anyone can find fault with.

Bayonetta (Multi-platform): 1.92 Million

Devil May Cry (PS2): 2.99 Million

Edit: I looked super, duper hard and the only games with a female protagonist that sold very well, that I could find, are Tomb Raider and Tomb Raider II. Except both of those games were sold on the basis of T&A more than anything else, so I don't even think those can count.

 

[Bertylicious]

If I remember rightly the last time a poll was taken on gender breakdown of The Escapist it was an overwhelming sausage party; 85% male as I recall. Assuming that's a realistic sample of gamers generally, and personally I think it is though really that is apropo of nothing, then the above numbers make sense; men and women will be more likely to buy a product when it is advertised by someone of the same gender. Is that a bad thing though? The only way I can think of exploring this further is if we can contrast gaming with another entertainment medium which doesn't have the same problem/feature.

Could we use music as a comparator? Is there a section of music where you have both genders represented in a non-exploitative sense?

Hmmm...

What about folk music? Lots of blokes and birds peddling that stuff and same hoovering it up. Does anyone here listen to/know about folk music?

 

[CloudAtlas]

The very few games with female protagonists or characters that sell well are often in proportion to their level of sexualization. Tomb Raider sold a lot because of boobs and ass.

I fail to see any kind of problem here though. (...)

But that exactly is the problem. People who wish for more female protagonists want interesting, strong female characters, characters who are taken seriously. And too much sexualization doesn't exactly help with that. Just like it usually doesn't in the real world.

I don't want to generalize here, but if you are a female gamer who is looking for a female protagonist to identify with, do you really think it makes no difference if this character is overly sexualized, if it is objectified to satisfy the male gaze?

I surely wouldn't want male protagonists to behave in ways you can frequently see in entertainment targeted at female audiences.

Then there's the seemingly incessant bitching whenever there is a female character somewhere somehow involved that she isn't the most perfect thing on gods green earth and incarnation of perfection by some sort of universal standard, whether its some supposed "rape" scene in the newest Tomb Raider.

I don't believe this is true. Flaws make a character more interesting, and isn't that just what people desire? The flaws should just not always fall in one of the common female tropes.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

But...but...

But I was expecting something along the lines of "Take a shot when..."

However, the problem here is that if we want to really "put it to the test", correlation will simply not be enough, we'd need to prove a causal link as well.

That doesn't mean I'm pretending the problem doesn't exist; what I'm saying is that we need to first establish just how much of a factor the protagonist's gender is in the process of purchasing decisions. If devs get told by publishers that "Male protagonists sell better", the next logical step would be to do some market research to see to what extent and why.

Yes, I'm sure we can handwave it and go on about "sexually insecure teenage boys", but that's not going to get us anywhere. I do pretty much agree with Jim it's a chicken or egg scene, or maybe it's scrambled eggs with chicken.

I suppose the hulking thirty-something gun-toting brown-haired grizzled "badass" archetype is the lowest common denominator, but, bleh. I don't understand what the appeal is.

You want a game like that?
Ok, take a shot whenever a new thread about sexism/gender issues pops up.
Hard mode: Choose one thread and take a shot whenever a post uses the words "feminazi, strawman, ad-hominem, "she is not a feminist", "What about the men". Synonyms also count.
Hardcore mode: Choose a thread, take a shot for every reply.
Dark Souls mode: Prepare to die: Take a shot for every reply to any gender/sexism thread.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I am just goin to leave this [http://www.themarysue.com/for-they-are-weary-of-space-marines-why-some-men-are-playing-women-and-why-game-developers-should-take-note/] here. Apparently over 37% of male gamers said they play a female character "most of the time" if given a choice, as compared to 34% of male gamers saying they played a male character "most of the time". So given a choice, a majority of male gamers will play a female character, according to that study.

 

[Raikas]

I am just goin to leave this [http://www.themarysue.com/for-they-are-weary-of-space-marines-why-some-men-are-playing-women-and-why-game-developers-should-take-note/] here. Apparently over 37% of male gamers said they play a female character "most of the time" if given a choice, as compared to 34% of male gamers saying they played a male character "most of the time". So given a choice, a majority of male gamers will play a female character, according to that study.

That's an informal, opt-in survey though - it probably attracted more guys who were specifically interested in the issue. That only 18% of ME3 players who used femShep (including female players) would suggest that that 37% is artificially high.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

-stuff-

Well, I wasn't actually aware of that particular brand of Bioshock controversy. Guess I should start try kicking up a shitstorm every time another soulless meat wall stars in a shooter, because I find them offensive.

In any case...better comparison that I don't think anyone can find fault with.

Bayonetta (Multi-platform): 1.92 Million

Devil May Cry (PS2): 2.99 Million

Edit: I looked super, duper hard and the only games with a female protagonist that sold very well, that I could find, are Tomb Raider and Tomb Raider II. Except both of those games were sold on the basis of T&A more than anything else, so I don't even think those can count.

I find it funny that you say Tomb Raider games were sold for T&A when they have more substance in their gameplay than all the run-around-shooting-people-in-the-face games mentioned in this thread, by you and everyone else.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

That's an informal, opt-in survey though - it probably attracted more guys who were specifically interested in the issue. That only 18% of ME3 players who used femShep (including female players) would suggest that that 37% is artificially high.

Definitely a possibility. Another possibility is that there's a difference between different types of gamers, such as between those that play MMOs (where gender selection is abundant) and those that play single player RPGs (where gender selection exists in some games).

My point was really just to show that apparently there is a sub-section of male gamers who either don't care or even prefer female avatars, for whatever reason.

 

[Auron]

snip

Your post has made me lose faith in humanity... Elizabeth is the best gaming sidekick ever! (And they're usually men not that it makes a damn difference.)

The god of war thing is also ridiculous, so much for fucking equality in these crazy people's heads...



Anyway, we have little evidence but it's hard to argue decently with it, and there even was a recent thread here where a woman asked others if they disliked playing male characters. I remember quite a bunch of them saying they'd rather play more relatable characters gender-wise, the same goes for most men including me by the way.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well sadly this is a result of that focus group stuff where they get random ignorant folk to sample some things and then they ask them what their preferences are, thus we end up with: "must be dumber", "more guns", "more splosions", "must be male", "must have pretty ladies with huge boobs", "minus clothing", "must not require effort", "or thinking", "I can't remember 5 buttons so why don't you keep flashing them on screen throughout the entire fucking game", "actually I don't really like games at all so make only corridors and cinematic shit",... and similar things.

And sadly that creates it's self fulfilling prophecy, people wallow in their ignorance because they were never challenged to make a step to the next level, and the industry in turn keeps that bar low so the morons still come.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

People are actually studying professional whining/bitching about video games and wasting grant money on that instead of doing something productive.

And who are you to say it isn't productive to study the gender structures of gaming and game design? Considering the earlier portion of your post I'd even go as far as to say that your obvious negative bias against gender analysis makes you hilariously unqualified to determine if these kinds of analysis and inspection of games is productive.

You see, some people, somewhere obviously thought that this was interesting/important enough to grant the money (hence the term "grant money") to allow for these kinds of studies. Unless they are taking the money directly out of your pocket, you are also in no position to determine whatever that money is being well spent or not.