Let's play a game about sex and sexism.

[Raikas]

That survey is also opt-in. If you don't play online or register your game with EA, your data would not be included. If you play the game a second time as a different gender, the data is then skewed. If you play it five times as one gender, and once as the other, it's not accurate..

If you play online the default is to send back data. You have to manually opt-out of that, so by definition it's an opt-out survey. I'm not saying its a perfect representation of everyone who plays the game (obviously that's close to impossible), but it's certainly capturing a broader population than would be included in the survey that the author over at the Mary Sue site built.

 

[UberPubert]

I;m not saying there aren't any female lead games I'm saying there's not enough to allow me to 'vote with my wallet' since I could buy every female lead game there is and it wouldn't even show next to the male lead ones. It's not like there's a fifty fifty split.

Well, I think that oranges metaphor might have gotten away from you, but I understand, and this might sound disingenuous, could it perhaps be that - as far as these blockbuster triple A games go - perhaps the demographics who find them interesting aren't quite so 50/50 either?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Nobody is saying men are evil and video games are sexist and bad. That's what we call a strawman. All we are doing is providing constructive criticism on what we would like to see changed or improved in video games.

And you are telling us to shut up because obviously video games are perfect as they are. I mean that Mass Effect 3 ending right? Everyone loved that.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

Obviously, this is why EA is still getting away with publishing half-finished DMR games.

Look, it's a bit difficult to say 'I will ONLY buy a game with a female protagonist since this is what I want from the industry', because there isn't that big of a choice, is there? Should I wait a year-and-a-half to buy a game that was made haphazardly and is totally not my genre JUST because there's a woman in it? No. Should I miss out on a good game that I like JUST because there's a man in it? No. Would I like to see a more balanced percentage when it comes to gender in games? Yes, I would.

How am I supposed to vote with my wallet when there isn't much to vote for?

Short answer: Very carefully.

Long answer: When looking at it from a buyer's perspective the prospect does appear rather harrowing but you have to realize that's how market research works. Publishers only see numbers, that's their job and it's how they stay in business, otherwise as you mentioned EA would be a flaming husk by now. After all, people have been complaining about their business practices for years - something that directly affects their profit margin - and they've still weighed in at net gains against massive PR backlash and outcry from gamers because the people who criticize EA the most and boycott their games or buy from other publishers still aren't their majority customers, and the same rules apply here.

captcha: believe me

That still doesn't answer my question. If 90 percent of the gaming industry only makes male leads, should I just forgo playing those games, because I wouldn't be making the statement I want to make? If I focus solely on gender politics, I run the risk of not supporting those high quality games that I would like to see more of. The point is not that it's important to vote with my wallet, but rather that it's almost impossible to do so without excluding issues. So, talking about it, bitching and whining about it is the only means I have at this moment

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I;m not saying there aren't any female lead games I'm saying there's not enough to allow me to 'vote with my wallet' since I could buy every female lead game there is and it wouldn't even show next to the male lead ones. It's not like there's a fifty fifty split.

Well, I think that oranges metaphor might have gotten away from you, but I understand, and this might sound disingenuous, could it perhaps be that - as far as these blockbuster triple A games go - perhaps the demographics who find them interesting aren't quite so 50/50 either?

What is the reason they both don't find them interesting though. Is it the fact that they are shooters or that they are advertised and made to appeal to males.

 

[mfeff]

I am just goin to leave this [http://www.themarysue.com/for-they-are-weary-of-space-marines-why-some-men-are-playing-women-and-why-game-developers-should-take-note/] here. Apparently over 37% of male gamers said they play a female character "most of the time" if given a choice, as compared to 34% of male gamers saying they played a male character "most of the time". So given a choice, a majority of male gamers will play a female character, according to that study.

Close friend of mine (male) prefers to play games with female character models. His reasoning is the there is often time more attention to the detail and animation rigging of the female avatars. This was also accompanied by the additional note that he grew tired of looking at the back of a male avatar (especially in an mmo/3rd person) game/camera setup for hours on end.

Flip side of the coin... I "rarely if ever" utilize a female character avatar.

Then again I tend to project myself into games, and as such, rarely fancy myself or harbor any inclination to participate in a fiction as a woman.

Going a little further with correlation I "suspect" as a provisional hypothesis that the tendency to utilize a female avatar as a male audience is directly linked to the particular male's sense of male identity. Just with the people that I know the ones that trend towards more liberal arts are more likely to use the female avatars, those that work or having training in typically very masculine professions are more likely to use male avatars. Family men tend towards all male usage, while men who are less likely to be family men more likely to use female avatars.

There is probably a dialog here in male-reinforcement/identity.

Identities and comfort zones likely play a large part in the distribution of the studies findings. Genre and game type/theme are also something to consider, as well as the social aspects. MMO female avatars do often get treated differently by younger male players, as such this is often exploited in the meta game by male players utilizing female avatars and archetypes.

Inconsequential in the single player games, but effective in mulitplayer games where team work and cooperation is involved.

The link is interesting thanks for sharing.

 

[UberPubert]

That still doesn't answer my question. If 90 percent of the gaming industry only makes male leads, should I just forgo playing those games, because I wouldn't be making the statement I want to make? If I focus solely on gender politics, I run the risk of not supporting those high quality games that I would like to see more of. The point is not that it's important to vote with my wallet, but rather that it's almost impossible to do so without excluding issues. So, talking about it, bitching and whining about it is the only means I have at this moment

Well, that's not quite true - there are actual means of contacting content creators and suggesting female protagonists to them. Posting about a gulch in female protagonists in mainstream gaming on a forum is more like using the internet as a stress ball, but I digress.

There isn't an easy answer, or a shortcut to getting more women in gaming. All the petitions and controversies and youtube series on the net won't change the narrow minds of businessmen deadset on rehashing the old formula. This change has to happen gradually, from the ground up, as the people who create and distribute content become more open to the idea, or the vast majority of society changes to demand it.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

That still doesn't answer my question. If 90 percent of the gaming industry only makes male leads, should I just forgo playing those games, because I wouldn't be making the statement I want to make? If I focus solely on gender politics, I run the risk of not supporting those high quality games that I would like to see more of. The point is not that it's important to vote with my wallet, but rather that it's almost impossible to do so without excluding issues. So, talking about it, bitching and whining about it is the only means I have at this moment

Well, that's not quite true - there are actual means of contacting content creators and suggesting female protagonists to them. Posting about a gulch in female protagonists in mainstream gaming on a forum is more like using the internet as a stress ball, but I digress.

There isn't an easy answer, or a shortcut to getting more women in gaming. All the petitions and controversies and youtube series on the net won't change the narrow minds of businessmen deadset on rehashing the old formula. This change has to happen gradually, from the ground up, as the people who create and distribute content become more open to the idea, or the vast majority of society changes to demand it.

I guess someones going to have to throw themselves under a racehorse then.

But seriously if we say hey btw guys if you do this instead of this you will increase your market by 50%! People aren't going to listen... okaaaay.

Also kickstarter will help a lot since it will show that different game types WILL sell to people and that they want it.
As an example Doublefine Adventure, Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity all have non sexualised strong female characters.

 

[UberPubert]

What is the reason they both don't find them interesting though. Is it the fact that they are shooters or that they are advertised and made to appeal to males.

It's interesting you mention shooters because I'm having difficulty imagining a genre more closely tied to feeling of masculinity than the act of holding and firing a gun. Something that deeply ingrained into western culture as a manly thing just can't be hand waved away as being equally accessible to both sexes. It just isn't.

From a publisher's perspective, making the protagonist female is just going to drive away that weird, creepy demographic of males who won't play if there's a girl on the cover (especially with all the other shooters flooding the market at any given time) and they figure the ladies who do buy it would have bought it anyway if it had a male protagonist, or that it wouldn't have made a significant difference anyway.

 

[UberPubert]

I guess someones going to have to throw themselves under a racehorse then.

But seriously if we say hey btw guys if you do this instead of this you will increase your market by 50%! People aren't going to listen... okaaaay.

Also kickstarter will help a lot since it will show that different game types WILL sell to people and that they want it.
As an example Doublefine Adventure, Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity all have non sexualised strong female characters.

There's a lot of great things to say about kickstarter.Frankly, if all these projects come to fruition I don't see the point in yelling down the publishers to conform to our ideas.

We'll have already won the war.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

If it's a non issue then it shouldn't matter if they use a woman, hell it will probably make them more money. As for 'Wierd and creepy guys' surely we shouldn't be encouraging their standpoint with pandering since they are so weird and creepy.

I don't think a few kickstarters count as 'winning the war' but it shows that when people have a say in what goes into their games they pick something a lot different than what publishers think we want. It renders this whole argument of 'But it won't sell!' completely moot.

It's funny how people will condemn mainstream games on one hand and back up dodgy publishing decisions on the other.

This whole thing reminds me of how the Bront'e sisters published their books under a male pseudonym because publishers wouldn't support a book written by a woman. It's different of course but not by much. Publishers are just saying they won't support a game featuring a woman.

Both seem madly archaic to me.

 

[CloudAtlas]

There's a difference between critique and going out of your way to obnoxious complaining about all and everything, trying to fit everything in some preconcieved notion of "OMG PATRIARCHY!"
With respect to the resident cat lady or crazy radical feminists, I don't think they're the main target audience for most games that sell nowadays and they won't add up to more than a few thousand to tens of thousands of sales at most.

I was also pointing out that whatever developers do, they can't satisfy those type of persons (who are very likely also not their target customer base). Another recent example I haven't mentioned before is about Gears of War, certain subsets of people have been demanding "female characters" for ages. The developers finally gave in, and now they have articles like this about said characters apparently not having enough equipment to entirely obscure their ass despite wearing the exactly same equipment as all other squadmates and being "too attractice": http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/13645/article/gears-of-war-judgment-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-sofia/

(...)

These complaints are taking such a surreal perspective as of late that I am unsure of them being serious or just trolling/click-baiting, because by god do I wish that most people don't actually think like that for my own sanity's sake.

There's also a difference between arguing a point and trying to be objective about viewing it without blinders in front of your eyes that will only play into some sort of preconceived notion about men being evil and women always being the victims making one sound like an unbalanced person like that video that people keep throwing around and more balanced persons with differing views like this in response:
(...)
You'd be surprised to know that even within the ranks of gaming girls not every single one subscribes to some radical notion of feminism and frigidity.

You don't get it, do you? Again, you just keep insulting and ridiculing the other side of the argument in every sentence. Just can't do without, he? Or is there more to it, are you deliberately using the "straw feminists" strategy, and cite the most extreme examples you can find, in an attempt to distract from the actual issue?


Edit: By the way, the article you've linked... I agree with it. The character fulfills quite a few tropes, is inferior to their males, and the clothes, well, there's a point too. Anyways, if that already counts as "obnoxious" "crazy radical feminism" for you, well, then that's rather telling - about you.

 

[UberPubert]

If it's a non issue then it shouldn't matter if they use a woman, hell it will probably make them more money. As for 'Wierd and creepy guys' surely we shouldn't be encouraging their standpoint with pandering since they are so weird and creepy.

You appear to be confused, there is no "we" here. I don't think anyone on this forum makes big publishing house decisions, I'm only parroting the logic behind their marketing strategies. Furthermore, there is no "probably" allowed with them, especially not when they've found a formula that works already.

I don't think a few kickstarters count as 'winning the war' but it shows that when people have a say in what goes into their games they pick something a lot different than what publishers think we want. It renders this whole argument of 'But it won't sell!' completely moot.

That sounds quite like victory to me.

It's funny how people will condemn mainstream games on one hand and back up dodgy publishing decisions on the other.

People are funny like that.

This whole thing reminds me of how the Bront'e sisters published their books under a male pseudonym because publishers wouldn't support a book written by a woman. It's different of course but not by much. Publishers are just saying they won't support a game featuring a woman.

Both seem madly archaic to me.

Publishers never really had to defend their choice of protagonist gender back then either. Character sex could barely be determined by their appearance, characterization and interaction was minimal and it just didn't make that much of a difference to anyone because they just came for the gameplay.

They're a little more advanced now and consumers have a right to demand more or choose something else but this disparity in protagonist gender did not come about because nobody liked women, it was because nobody minded them being men.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Male Dominated Games:
Halo: Combat Evolved: 6.43 Million
Gears of War 1: 5.99 Million
Medal of Honor: Warfighter: 1.94 Million

Female Dominated Games:
Tomb Raider ('13): 1.44 Million
Mirror's Edge: 2.20 Million
Parasite Eve: 2.10 Million

Bothie Games: (For these, I want everyone to keep in mind that according to Bioware, only 18% of the people who played ME3 completed the game as FemShep. So even these should all be heavily male dominated)
Dragon Age: Origins: 4.37 Million
Mass Effect 2: 4.52 Million
TES V: Skyrim: 14.42 Million

The problem with merely just presenting the data is that it can be interpreted to suit a specific argument. As an example, I'm wondering why Military Shooters are dominating the market over other genres; aside from fierce competition from RPG's. Although when one considers the cost that goes into either; the safer bet for publishers would be a Shooter.

As other posters have already pointed out, correlation is not necessarily causation. It is interesting to debate whether or not marketing has a direct self fulfilling prophecy impact though. As an example, in Warhammer 40k, Space Marine sales are astronomically above all other armies. Is that because they are popular? Or because the company spends so much extra time on them? (Because they never considered the dramatic spike in sales with the new releases of different armies)

Then again, marketing doesn't always seem to work, as in the case of Dante's Inferno. A massive marketing campaign with not a great return on sales.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Could you put that last part a little more clearly I'm slightly confused about what you mean?

I mean 'we' as in society since you guys are sitting hear defending the publishers choices and everything. I think kickstarter will make us see an improvement but it will be slow and gradual and more input in the mean time won't hurt.

I know animal crossing new leaf sold a massive amount of 3ds' to women recently in so there is definitely a market there if they know how to appeal to it.

Also I think you'll find the gender disparity in games came about because game development began in the late 70's and you won't have found a lot of women being recruited in the sciences at that time.

That said as someone who has been gaming for over 25 years it wasn't too noticable until graphics improved and story became a big part of gaming,

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

These complaints are taking such a surreal perspective as of late that I am unsure of them being serious or just trolling/click-baiting, because by god do I wish that most people don't actually think like that for my own sanity's sake.

There's also a difference between arguing a point and trying to be objective about viewing it without blinders in front of your eyes that will only play into some sort of preconceived notion about men being evil and women always being the victims making one sound like an unbalanced person like that video that people keep throwing around and more balanced persons with differing views like this in response:


You'd be surprised to know that even within the ranks of gaming girls not every single one subscribes to some radical notion of feminism and frigidity.

Awww, whatever else we're debating in this thread, I just want to say THANK YOU for the above movie. I was appalled when Anita Sarkeesian blatantly stuffed Zelda in the 'damsel in the distress' trope, when obviously Sheik is running around being awesome. Basically, I love the points this girl is making, and have actually gained new respect for Peach!

 

[UberPubert]

Could you put that last part a little more clearly I'm slightly confused about what you mean?

I mean 'we' as in society since you guys are sitting hear defending the publishers choices and everything. I think kickstarter will make us see an improvement but it will be slow and gradual and more input in the mean time won't hurt.

I know animal crossing new leaf sold a massive amount of 3ds' to women recently in so there is definitely a market there if they know how to appeal to it.

I'd just like to say "we", and "you guys" are just a couple of incorrect generalizations, I'm not on anybody's side here.

And I'm not defending publisher decisions on any other grounds than business sense, in this one particular case, and only against the accusation of them being somehow ideologically motivated to keep female protagonists out of games.

And I really don't think touting the sales numbers on a handheld "social simulation game" is the best case for getting more women in our shoot-em-ups and devil may cries of war.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Could you put that last part a little more clearly I'm slightly confused about what you mean?

I mean 'we' as in society since you guys are sitting hear defending the publishers choices and everything. I think kickstarter will make us see an improvement but it will be slow and gradual and more input in the mean time won't hurt.

I know animal crossing new leaf sold a massive amount of 3ds' to women recently in so there is definitely a market there if they know how to appeal to it.

I'd just like to say "we", and "you guys" are just a couple of incorrect generalizations, I'm not on anybody's side here.

And I'm not defending publisher decisions on any other grounds than business sense, in this one particular case, and only against the accusation of them being somehow ideologically motivated to keep female protagonists out of games.

And I really don't think touting the sales numbers on a handheld "social simulation game" is the best case for getting more women in our shoot-em-ups and devil may cries of war.

Just showing that women are willing to spend money on games. Also did you see the sales figures for Skyrim I bet my hat that's because it's gender neutral along with Fallout.

I don't think anyone is keeping women out of games because they hate women. But they are doing it deliberately because they think they can't sell games like shooters to a female market.

 

[UberPubert]

Just showing that women are willing to spend money on games. Also did you see the sales figures for Skyrim I bet my hat that's because it's gender neutral along with Fallout.

I don't think anyone is keeping women out of games because they hate women. But they are doing it deliberately because they think they can't sell games like shooters to a female market.

Of course women spend money on games, I'm just not sure that letting you choose your gender in certain types of other games would have the same positive effect, and when the game isn't a western RPG with a malleable protagonist it makes publishers cast a frightened sideways glance at prolonging development cycles and begin frantically shaking their heads.