Lets talk about: Obesity Acceptance

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Johnny Novgorod

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Feb 9, 2012
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Eddie the head said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
And before you start on about the Venus of Willendorf: she's a fertility deity, given grossly exaggerated fertility attributes. Divine representation always hinged on exaggerating or underlining this or that attribute.
Furthermore you could just call that being decided by society. So then there is a problem.
Or I could just compare it to every other representation of a fertility deity in Western civilization ever and draw a logical conclusion from it. Seems like a more educated guess than simply blurbing "society did it because society".

Being fat used to mean you had money and in a world where 95% of the population regularly starved to death, you wouldn't. Now it just means you eat a lot and don't exercize enough.
 

Eddie the head

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Eddie the head said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
And before you start on about the Venus of Willendorf: she's a fertility deity, given grossly exaggerated fertility attributes. Divine representation always hinged on exaggerating or underlining this or that attribute.
Furthermore you could just call that being decided by society. So then there is a problem.
Or I could just compare it to every other representation of a fertility deity in Western civilization ever and draw a logical conclusion from it. Seems like a more educated guess than simply blurbing "society did it because society".

Being fat used to mean you had money and in a world where 95% of the population regularly starved to death, you wouldn't. Now it just means you eat a lot and don't exercize enough.
I know I was just trying to point out the absurdity of the society excuse. I agree with you. The fact that a society decided something has no barring on how truthful it is.
 

Harpalyce

Social Justice Cleric
Mar 1, 2012
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Funny thing about the fat acceptance movement. It actually does better promoting healthiness than constant shaming. A nice study came out recently pointing this very fact out.

If you tell people that they don't need to constantly loathe and hate their bodies, surprise surprise, they actually become more interested in taking care of themselves. They stop thinking about their bodies as adversaries and start thinking of it as a valued part of themselves, and instead of hating themselves and their physical form, they instead work towards health. Not (just) weight loss. Health. Being able to exercise, being able to do all sorts of activities, being able to feel better in all sorts of ways.

If you think the movement is just a bunch of fat people whining loudly, you aren't listening, y'all. It's about people learning to not hate themselves. And in valuing themselves, they learn how to take care of themselves. That's the entire deal. Society would rather fat people stay inside and be shunned from society at large. And if you do that... well, you get too ashamed to go out to the gym, too. But if you work on loving yourself, realizing your body is a part of you to be valued, not only do you feel better, but you get out of the house to take care of yourself. You become confident enough to make good and healthy choices.

It's important stuff. (Says a fat person who the fat acceptance movement helped in EXACTLY this same way.)
 

Pieturli

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Mar 15, 2012
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Harpalyce said:
Funny thing about the fat acceptance movement. It actually does better promoting healthiness than constant shaming. A nice study came out recently pointing this very fact out.

If you tell people that they don't need to constantly loathe and hate their bodies, surprise surprise, they actually become more interested in taking care of themselves. They stop thinking about their bodies as adversaries and start thinking of it as a valued part of themselves, and instead of hating themselves and their physical form, they instead work towards health. Not (just) weight loss. Health. Being able to exercise, being able to do all sorts of activities, being able to feel better in all sorts of ways.

If you think the movement is just a bunch of fat people whining loudly, you aren't listening, y'all. It's about people learning to not hate themselves. And in valuing themselves, they learn how to take care of themselves. That's the entire deal. Society would rather fat people stay inside and be shunned from society at large. And if you do that... well, you get too ashamed to go out to the gym, too. But if you work on loving yourself, realizing your body is a part of you to be valued, not only do you feel better, but you get out of the house to take care of yourself. You become confident enough to make good and healthy choices.

It's important stuff. (Says a fat person who the fat acceptance movement helped in EXACTLY this same way.)
I actually thought about this before posting the OP. I've seen fat acceptance being used to mean what you said, and Healthy At Any Weight mean what I've been talking about. In any case, the thing you talked about is a force for good. It's the sort of thing I talked about in my OP that is tantamount to self-delusion and flat out lying to other people.
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Sep 10, 2008
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Sure I'll accept a 'fat movement,' but only if they pay for their own medical bills.

I don't care if some people want to delude themselves that having the bodyweight comparable to cattle is healthy, however when their self-delusion negativly affects society (in this case diverting hospital funds into supersize wards etc) then they can get stuffed.
 

Batou667

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Oct 5, 2011
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I'm anti-fat-activism.

I've got no problem with people being confident with themselves or deciding to go out and have fun despite being chubby. Some people might even find fat rolls attractive, and that's fine too. People are entitled to their opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts, and the fat acceptance movement pushes a very deceitful and quite possibly harmful agenda.

For example, fat acceptance communities espouse a philosophy known as "HAES" (Health At Every Size) which undermines conventional medical advice about nutrition and body composition (you can totally be 350 pounds and healthy!) HAES advocates encourage each other and fat people in general to ignore medical advice that inconveniences them, mildly embarrasses them or makes them feel bad for being fat, and instead seek out fat-positive doctors - and if no such doctors can be found, self-diagnose a mild medical condition to explain the weight and engage in "intuitive eating" on the premise that the human body knows what nutrients it needs and seeks out foods containing them.

Fat activism makes the mistake of considering itself a civil rights movement of underprivileged individuals and therefore any resistance to it is deemed to be "hateful" or "bigoted" - even positive initiatives like Michelle Obama's "Let's Move" campaign to reduce childhood obesity has been received as everything from body-shaming children to a form of "fat genocide". There's also plenty of hypocrisy within the movement - although a basic tenet is that they're campaigning for a diversity of body types, an end to one body-type being privileged over others, and an end to people being verbally abused or mocked, in practice members of the fat acceptance community regularly make venomous attacks on thin or conventionally-attractive people, especially women. I can only conclude that these women don't want to broaden the spectrum of socially-acceptable body types, they want to move the goalposts to where they are - and that's pretty much the definition of selfish, immature entitlement.

So, in a nutshell: I think Fat Acceptance is the fat women's equivalent to MRAs. Some valid ideas are there, but it's mostly an insular and poisonous community of disgruntled people who want to blame the world for their difficulties.
 

briankoontz

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May 17, 2010
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Any time one combines misery with wealth obesity results. So it's "natural", and it's going to occur regardless of whether it's accepted.

If you really want less obese people, then either take away the misery or take away the wealth. My personal preference is less misery, so do things like support financial security through taxing corporations and empowering democratic organizations so anxiety doesn't drive people to over-consume food.

Or just do what's been done for decades in America - blame the individual. That works extremely well as history has shown.
 

Harpalyce

Social Justice Cleric
Mar 1, 2012
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Pieturli said:
Harpalyce said:
Funny thing about the fat acceptance movement. It actually does better promoting healthiness than constant shaming. A nice study came out recently pointing this very fact out.

If you tell people that they don't need to constantly loathe and hate their bodies, surprise surprise, they actually become more interested in taking care of themselves. They stop thinking about their bodies as adversaries and start thinking of it as a valued part of themselves, and instead of hating themselves and their physical form, they instead work towards health. Not (just) weight loss. Health. Being able to exercise, being able to do all sorts of activities, being able to feel better in all sorts of ways.

If you think the movement is just a bunch of fat people whining loudly, you aren't listening, y'all. It's about people learning to not hate themselves. And in valuing themselves, they learn how to take care of themselves. That's the entire deal. Society would rather fat people stay inside and be shunned from society at large. And if you do that... well, you get too ashamed to go out to the gym, too. But if you work on loving yourself, realizing your body is a part of you to be valued, not only do you feel better, but you get out of the house to take care of yourself. You become confident enough to make good and healthy choices.

It's important stuff. (Says a fat person who the fat acceptance movement helped in EXACTLY this same way.)
I actually thought about this before posting the OP. I've seen fat acceptance being used to mean what you said, and Healthy At Any Weight mean what I've been talking about. In any case, the thing you talked about is a force for good. It's the sort of thing I talked about in my OP that is tantamount to self-delusion and flat out lying to other people.
I'm actually glad to hear that. To be honest I haven't really seen much of the actual toxic stuff. I've just seen a lot of people being positive about themselves and their bodies - and unfortunately this gets a LOT of people really upset, simply the idea that somebody can feel beautiful at, say, 250 lbs. and can even go outside and enjoy themselves instead of having to be a shut-in out of sheer shame.

Hold on to your hats, I'm about to get all feminist on y'all: I think a lot of this movement that may be missed on some people who are against it is how gendered it is. To put it simply, girls get a hell of a lot more flak than guys do when it comes to being overweight. You can do your own googling on this point, but it is, quite honestly, a thing. And while dudes are encouraged to be fit - to be muscley, whatever - girls... aren't. The thin that women are pressured to be is overwhelmingly, well, unhealthy.

This movement is also really a backlash to the expectation that if you're fat, you've got to be dieting. And a lot of the time, that diet is NOT healthy. Unfortunately there are a lot of diets that are basically disordered eating with a veil of pseudoscience in order to make it conventionally acceptable. If you told somebody that you expected their entire life to be centered around food, and especially denying themselves food, you'd think that's a little strange, right? But that's often what people expect you to do if you're fat. (Or even just not as thin as a movie star!)

So there are going to be people that take it the other way. But before you jump on them sneering in disgust, spare a thought for why they're so frustrated. They have a lot of good reasons to be so. The opposite of a mistake often ends up another mistake, of course, but the things people are aggravated with are pretty legit. The fact that we're even here having to go back and forth is kind of depressing in and of itself.

If you think the fat acceptance movement is too aggressive or strident, take a second to think about why they feel they have to be that way. Stand in the other person's shoes for a little bit. You might figure out that what comes across as aggressiveness to you is actually legitimate frustration from people who have a lot to be angry about.

I can tell you that after being told all my life that I was too fat, too ugly, and too big to just about be fully human, having a voice go "hey, you can love yourself! you can go out in that cute retro-style dress and red lipstick and kill it if you want! you can take care of yourself because you are valued!" is really, really, REALLY life-changing. And it is really, really, REALLY a fantastic thing. :)
 

Harpalyce

Social Justice Cleric
Mar 1, 2012
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archiebawled said:
Harpalyce said:
Funny thing about the fat acceptance movement. It actually does better promoting healthiness than constant shaming. A nice study came out recently pointing this very fact out.
That's a false dichotomy - it's not "Fat acceptance or fat shaming", and nobody is advocating fat shaming. What people are advocating is exercise and moderation when eating.

Could you provide a link to the study? Not saying that I disbelieve it, but it will save 50 people from doing the same google search.
It's a relatively small study, but here's a writeup about it: http://theconversation.com/study-finds-fat-acceptance-blogs-can-improve-health-outcomes-2890

I actually think the conclusion is a little obvious, but important. If you encourage people to not hate themselves, they'll, you know, want to take care of themselves, instead of just sitting around hating themselves.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize it, but in trying to advocate what other people do with their bodies in aggressive manners, people often stumble into that shaming or oversimplifying in negative ways. To use an extremely personal example, I get pretty fed up when people shout louder and louder to "just exercise". Because... well, for many people, including myself, it's not that simple! I'm disabled, I have chronic pain issues. It's a real struggle for me to find ANY activity that won't leave me in agony. So if people shout in my ear that the only thing keeping me from doing pilates and jazzercise like a normal person is myself, I get closer and closer to just wanting to turn my head around like I'm in the exorcist and screechily spit pea soup in their faces because no, no it's not actually that simple lol. And people making those sort of constant assumptions is incredibly grating not just on me, but on people like me - and there are more of those than you'd expect, really.
 

Pieturli

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Mar 15, 2012
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Harpalyce said:
I'm actually glad to hear that. To be honest I haven't really seen much of the actual toxic stuff. I've just seen a lot of people being positive about themselves and their bodies - and unfortunately this gets a LOT of people really upset, simply the idea that somebody can feel beautiful at, say, 250 lbs. and can even go outside and enjoy themselves instead of having to be a shut-in out of sheer shame.

Hold on to your hats, I'm about to get all feminist on y'all: I think a lot of this movement that may be missed on some people who are against it is how gendered it is. To put it simply, girls get a hell of a lot more flak than guys do when it comes to being overweight. You can do your own googling on this point, but it is, quite honestly, a thing. And while dudes are encouraged to be fit - to be muscley, whatever - girls... aren't. The thin that women are pressured to be is overwhelmingly, well, unhealthy.

This movement is also really a backlash to the expectation that if you're fat, you've got to be dieting. And a lot of the time, that diet is NOT healthy. Unfortunately there are a lot of diets that are basically disordered eating with a veil of pseudoscience in order to make it conventionally acceptable. If you told somebody that you expected their entire life to be centered around food, and especially denying themselves food, you'd think that's a little strange, right? But that's often what people expect you to do if you're fat. (Or even just not as thin as a movie star!)

So there are going to be people that take it the other way. But before you jump on them sneering in disgust, spare a thought for why they're so frustrated. They have a lot of good reasons to be so. The opposite of a mistake often ends up another mistake, of course, but the things people are aggravated with are pretty legit. The fact that we're even here having to go back and forth is kind of depressing in and of itself.

If you think the fat acceptance movement is too aggressive or strident, take a second to think about why they feel they have to be that way. Stand in the other person's shoes for a little bit. You might figure out that what comes across as aggressiveness to you is actually legitimate frustration from people who have a lot to be angry about.

I can tell you that after being told all my life that I was too fat, too ugly, and too big to just about be fully human, having a voice go "hey, you can love yourself! you can go out in that cute retro-style dress and red lipstick and kill it if you want! you can take care of yourself because you are valued!" is really, really, REALLY life-changing. And it is really, really, REALLY a fantastic thing. :)
Girls get more flak for it because, sadly, girls get more flak for everything that relates to appearance. That said, it seems like guys are increasingly subject to this nowadays as well. Specifically the skinny six pack abs kids. Skinny guys who are frail and deconditioned and refuse to eat, purely in the pursuit of having visible abs.

You touched on the fact that men are encouraged to be fit and girls aren't. I think this is part of the problem. One day, I hope to be a strength and conditioning coach, and be part of the movement that is trying to get people away from thinking about training in terms of what it does to their appearance, and instead focus on what it does for their fitness and health.

As for where the pressure to be thin comes from... honestly, I don't know, but I can say with some conviction that it doesn't come from any men that I know. I don't know a single man who thinks the rail-thin supermodel look is some kind of pinnacle of beauty. Sure, some rail-thin people are pretty, but it's not the only kind of pretty there is. This is actually something I'm going to post about... as soon as I'm done writing the post.
 

visiblenoise

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Harpalyce said:
I'm actually glad to hear that. To be honest I haven't really seen much of the actual toxic stuff. I've just seen a lot of people being positive about themselves and their bodies - and unfortunately this gets a LOT of people really upset, simply the idea that somebody can feel beautiful at, say, 250 lbs. and can even go outside and enjoy themselves instead of having to be a shut-in out of sheer shame.

Hold on to your hats, I'm about to get all feminist on y'all: I think a lot of this movement that may be missed on some people who are against it is how gendered it is. To put it simply, girls get a hell of a lot more flak than guys do when it comes to being overweight. You can do your own googling on this point, but it is, quite honestly, a thing. And while dudes are encouraged to be fit - to be muscley, whatever - girls... aren't. The thin that women are pressured to be is overwhelmingly, well, unhealthy.

This movement is also really a backlash to the expectation that if you're fat, you've got to be dieting. And a lot of the time, that diet is NOT healthy. Unfortunately there are a lot of diets that are basically disordered eating with a veil of pseudoscience in order to make it conventionally acceptable. If you told somebody that you expected their entire life to be centered around food, and especially denying themselves food, you'd think that's a little strange, right? But that's often what people expect you to do if you're fat. (Or even just not as thin as a movie star!)

So there are going to be people that take it the other way. But before you jump on them sneering in disgust, spare a thought for why they're so frustrated. They have a lot of good reasons to be so. The opposite of a mistake often ends up another mistake, of course, but the things people are aggravated with are pretty legit. The fact that we're even here having to go back and forth is kind of depressing in and of itself.

If you think the fat acceptance movement is too aggressive or strident, take a second to think about why they feel they have to be that way. Stand in the other person's shoes for a little bit. You might figure out that what comes across as aggressiveness to you is actually legitimate frustration from people who have a lot to be angry about.

I can tell you that after being told all my life that I was too fat, too ugly, and too big to just about be fully human, having a voice go "hey, you can love yourself! you can go out in that cute retro-style dress and red lipstick and kill it if you want! you can take care of yourself because you are valued!" is really, really, REALLY life-changing. And it is really, really, REALLY a fantastic thing. :)
But what is a fat person who is wearing that cute retro-style dress and red lipstick supposed to say when some mean-mouthed bystander inevitably recommends a salad or something? "I know, this is just temporary?" Anything short of that and they'll risk looking like they intend to stay fat.

I don't really have a point, I'm just pondering this more-acceptable fat acceptance movement you're talking about.
 

giles

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Hm, isn't there a problem of TOO much acceptance for fat people in the US society? I seem to remember news about this sort of thing. I might be remembering it wrong.
As for the "lifestyle choice" argument... well yes, in a way, it's your choice. However, you're kinda wearing it on your sleeve and like all your choices it does say something about you. Similar to smoking, you're abusing the reward function of your brain for cheap pleasure and sacrifice your body in the process. It's definitely not that obese people don't care about their appearance, because I noticed that many have the most elaborate hair styles or clothes. What I think being fat really says about you is a lack of self-control. Sorry if that sounds judgemental, I know some people are overweight due to some medical condition, but I think it's a reasonable conclusion for a first impression.
I think the fat acceptance movement is aware of similar, negative impressions that obesity has on people and is trying to counteract this.

Harpalyce said:
To put it simply, girls get a hell of a lot more flak than guys do when it comes to being overweight. You can do your own googling on this point, but it is, quite honestly, a thing. And while dudes are encouraged to be fit - to be muscley, whatever - girls... aren't. The thin that women are pressured to be is overwhelmingly, well, unhealthy.

This movement is also really a backlash to the expectation that if you're fat, you've got to be dieting. And a lot of the time, that diet is NOT healthy. Unfortunately there are a lot of diets that are basically disordered eating with a veil of pseudoscience in order to make it conventionally acceptable. If you told somebody that you expected their entire life to be centered around food, and especially denying themselves food, you'd think that's a little strange, right? But that's often what people expect you to do if you're fat. (Or even just not as thin as a movie star!)
I agree that society is stupid like that. Like medicine, nutrition is a swamp of myths and old wives tales. However, nobody asked these girls to believe the myth that they shouldn't be fit or that they will turn out to be she-hulk if they start exercising. They just took it at face value.
It's not impossible for the individual to get it together go past the fashion-magazine lies. The information on proper nutrition and how to get started on exercising is readily available on the internet. Yes it does take some skill, effort and actual fact checking to get to the facts... but you didn't get overweight over night, so don't expect it to be easy.
 

Harpalyce

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Mar 1, 2012
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Pieturli said:
As for where the pressure to be thin comes from... honestly, I don't know, but I can say with some conviction that it doesn't come from any men that I know. I don't know a single man who thinks the rail-thin supermodel look is some kind of pinnacle of beauty. Sure, some rail-thin people are pretty, but it's not the only kind of pretty there is. This is actually something I'm going to post about... as soon as I'm done writing the post.
Honestly? Advertising is a huge part of it.

You can sell a whole lot more to people if you are constantly telling them that they are imperfect, and if you set the bar incredibly high and unrealistic, that's even more people who need help to get there. That's where a lot of the whole nitpickiness about women's appearances comes from. If you tell people it's okay to look like, well, what they look like, they aren't going to buy your makeup, your special cleansing tea, your frozen diet meals, your special shampoo, your hair dye, your thinning pantyhose, your 'natural glow' skin lotion, your butt-toning special sneakers, your... so on, and so on, and so on.

It may sound a little conspiracy theorist but it's definitely a huge part of it. The world's kind of a messed-up place.

visiblenoise said:
But what is a fat person who is wearing that cute retro-style dress and red lipstick supposed to say when some mean-mouthed bystander inevitably recommends a salad or something? "I know, this is just temporary?" Anything short of that and they'll risk looking like they intend to stay fat.

I don't really have a point, I'm just pondering this more-acceptable fat acceptance movement you're talking about.
That's when I do believe it is generally recommended to stare at the person as if they have suddenly grown three radioactive spiders from their nostrils. The fault there is the douchebag who thinks his nose needs to be in everybody's business... NOT the person just out enjoying themselves. Not even if said fat person is out wearing her favourite cute retro-style dress and red lipstick while chowing down on a deliciously decadent barbecue bacon cheeseburger with a side order of truffle fries.

The point there is that the douchebag is a douchebag. Nobody knows another person's life from one meal. Could be that they have 'saved up' calories. Could be that they very specially got their diet in order to have that cheeseburger. Could be that this is their splurge day. Could be that they love that bacon cheeseburger and are gonna work it off later. Could be that they used to go to have bacon cheeseburgers with their brother who was killed in Iraq 2 years ago so they always go to get a burger on his birthday in memoriam. Could be they just wanted a bacon cheeseburger. Who knows? It's not really anyone else's business. If somebody decides they need to be a douchebag, they need to be called out as being a douchebag. Nobody needs to justify what they're putting in their mouth to the entire world and all comers simply because they're overweight just like nobody needs to justify what they're putting in their mouth to the entire world simply because they're UNDERweight. Or simply because they're, you know, putting food into their face.
 

Pieturli

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Mar 15, 2012
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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.856990-Physical-attraction-Some-things-Ive-noticed


There we go, in case anyone is interested.
 

Descalon

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Apr 4, 2011
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In all honesty, though; isn't the definition of obesity "a condition in which body fat has accumulated to the point where it can induce negative health effects". So, by definition, obesity acceptance is telling people to accept negative health effects and be okay with it. I know I'm being pedantic, but we have semantics for a reason.
 

Megacherv

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Sep 24, 2008
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Oh man, you should subscribe to /r/fatlogic, you'd love it.

One of my biggest issues is that we now have an attitude of insulting skinny people. My girlfriend is skinny (through no intention of her own, she didn;t realise she had celiac disease for a year which made her throw up a lot and made her lose a lot of weight), and I'd hate anyone to insult her with the typical 'men like meat, dogs like bones etc.' kind of comments because she gets easily upset, and I know it'd be a massive hit to her self-esteem.
 

144_v1legacy

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I feel the resentment lies with inconveniences. For instance, when someone is unable to hurry along a passageway blocked by two fat guys. Why a fat person sits in a seat beside another, and spills into the area of the surrounding. If you're comfortable with yourself, be comfortable with yourself, but when your life choices start impacting the lives of others, it's important to gauge whether it's socially acceptable. Being skinny tends not to inconvenience the average stranger as often as the opposite.
 

Pieturli

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Megacherv said:
Oh man, you should subscribe to /r/fatlogic, you'd love it.

One of my biggest issues is that we now have an attitude of insulting skinny people. My girlfriend is skinny (through no intention of her own, she didn;t realise she had celiac disease for a year which made her throw up a lot and made her lose a lot of weight), and I'd hate anyone to insult her with the typical 'men like meat, dogs like bones etc.' kind of comments because she gets easily upset, and I know it'd be a massive hit to her self-esteem.
It's this assumption that some people seem to have that if they have been teased or abused, they therefore have license to do the same.
 

renegade7

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thaluikhain said:
renegade7 said:
Thin people are more attractive
Because society has decided that fat people are unattractive. There is a problem there.
I think I chose the wrong word. "Thin" is not more attractive, signs of healt and reproductive ability are, and that goes back to well before "society" was making any decisions about what was considered sexually attractive or physically charismatic. Attractiveness does not increase linearly with thin-ness, in fact, there is a point at which people are deemed less attractive due to being underweight. Things like height to width ratio (something like 6:1.25 if memory serves), shoulder to hip ratio, neck radius to jaw width ratio, leg length to torso length, etc, are more important.

Scarcity is a primary driver of what's attractive. If everyone was beautiful, people would still be picky. A very, very small handful of people will be born lucky enough to be gorgeous with no effort, the rest of us have to work at it. There's a reason laziness is synonymous with "slob" or "ugly". People willing to put in the effort to look good are rare. Sort of like a meritocracy of attraction.

Then of course there's the question of character. Someone with the motivation to do the work necessary to be one of the pretty people has a more attractive character than one who does not.