Leveling Up - Is it an outdated mechanic?

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CloudAtlas

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I fully agree with the OP. I highly dislike the levelling systems found in most current games - including many single player games.

They are out of place in competitive shooters, but the same logic applies to any kind of competitive game. More experienced people are already more skilled than beginners. Giving them more health, better weapons, or more gadgets on top of that just makes life even harder for beginners. The only thing I find acceptable is to offer a wider variety of guns and gadgets, as long as none of these guns and gadgets are outright better. And, of course, cosmetic rewards - cool outfits, titles and stuff. That's motivating people plenty enough in other games.

I find levelling in its current form also very problematic in MMOs. Guild Wars 2, who tried to improve here, just killed it in terms of absurdity for me. Progression works like everywhere else here, but if you go back to low-level areas, your level is scaled down to the level of the area. This in itself is good - it makes visiting low-level areas worthwhile, and you can also play together with friends that have lower levels. However, it is also absurd: You gain levels, but effectively you never really become more powerful - no matter where you go, your enemies are always as strong as you are. Well, your character does become a bit stronger, so you will have an easier time in low-level areas, but it's much much less pronounced. So I was really wondering: why include this levelling system in the first place? Why make your character start out with 500 hit points at level 1 and end with 50 000 at level 80, if it doesn't make a difference at all? And, by the way, how realistic is it that an experienced warrior can endure 100 times more punishment and dish out 100 times more damage?
Why not start with 500 and end with, say, 1000 (and analogously for the other stats)? This way, you would still have level progression, you would still become more powerful over time, but you could still play with friends and have fun, you could still find challenges in the easier areas. But you would have an easier time balancing the game.
And, again, you could also provide a sense of progression by giving access to a greater varieties of weapons, spells, tools and what not.
And there are other ways to prevent level 1 characters to access all areas right away, to direct characters to follow some story or something like that. Like, you need to gain a certain reputation, or finish some quests, before the ruler of city X allows you to enter.

And mind that Guild Wars 2 is already a big step forward compared to older games. If I have to play dozens or hundreds of hours before the actual fun content is accessible, in the end game, that's just crap. Like the OP said.




And the aforementioned EVE has the worst progression system of all in my opinion. Let's say you're a relatively new player, and you want to fly a certain space ship you don't have the skills for yet with reasonable efficiency. What can you do to achieve that goal? Nothing, absolutely nothing. If you're unlucky, you have to wait several real-life weeks until you can fly it. This game actively dis-incentivices playing it.
This game disadvantages new players worse than any other. If you're an experienced player, you have the advantage because of your experience, of course, but you can also earn magnitudes more money per hour, every ship you fly has better stats, you can equip every ship with better equipment, you can fly a much larger variety of ships, and you can fly much better ships of a similar type. You're just much better off in every single way.


Level progression in single player games often goes wrong too. A game should become progressively harder the more you play from both a gameplay and a story point of view: you get better at playing it, and you want to overcome worse enemies as you fight your way to the villain. But what happens in many games that a game gets easier over time because the developers didn't manage to balance it well.
I understand if levelling is necessary for games like Skyrim. But if story and gameplay mechanics are not enough to motivate a player to continue playing story-driven games like Mass Effect 3, then you're doing something wrong.
 

Ghost1214

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Leveling up is a reward in itself, by leveling you are improving yourself in a game, that is why many people have and continue to enjoy it. However, the problem mmo's have run into is that people seem to only care about the end game rather than the journey, which breaks with traditional pen and paper mechanics, where an adventure was its own reward, sure you get gold and items, but then what? More adventure. Modern mmo's are all about the end game and the rewards are useful only in the endgame. Leveling up stops being a feeling of empowerment and slowly becomes a mindless task. A problem with many games today is that they've devalued leveling up to make you feel like you're not progressing. Some games can get away with this with strong story and character development, but in mmo's you inhabit your own unique character and few allow you to grow in that direction.

I'm going to use the elephant in the room WoW as an example of what I mean. In classic WoW you had a reward at each level after ten (talents), each level you progressed, sometimes you got an ability as well. Then they changed it to every two levels, and if you pay attention to yourself, each level is now less engaging. Now we got to modern where it is every 15, and levels have ceased really to exist other than to justify the grind.

Leveling up isn't intrinsically bad, its just poorly implemented. It should be a method to keep people engaged with a game. It also elongates games, a hallmark of subscription mmo's, which is also not bad, as long as the journey to the end is fun and enjoyable. Unfortunately, mmo's these days have forgotten about the leveling content in favour of endgame, as mmo players rush to the endgame, as they have been taught that is what's valuable. Here is where level-less games come in, but they have the problem of giving a player no feeling of empowerment other than gear, which can also be a terrible system.
 

Korica

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Glad to see somebody who not only agrees, but offers up some great reasons why.

CloudAtlas said:
Why make your character start out with 500 hit points at level 1 and end with 50 000 at level 80, if it doesn't make a difference at all? And, by the way, how realistic is it that an experienced warrior can endure 100 times more punishment and dish out 100 times more damage?
Why not start with 500 and end with, say, 1000 (and analogously for the other stats)? This way, you would still have level progression, you would still become more powerful over time, but you could still play with friends and have fun, you could still find challenges in the easier areas. But you would have an easier time balancing the game.
And, again, you could also provide a sense of progression by giving access to a greater varieties of weapons, spells, tools and what not.
And there are other ways to prevent level 1 characters to access all areas right away, to direct characters to follow some story or something like that. Like, you need to gain a certain reputation, or finish some quests, before the ruler of city X allows you to enter.
One only needs to look to one of the most popular examples, WoW, to see what happens when you let numbers get out of hand. I think if you look up a bar graph of item stats in WoW, you can actually see a proper exponential growth curve. Somehow you go from 100 Health, to 6000 Health, to 5000000 Health. It makes utterly no sense.

This is one of the reasons I cited the Elder Scrolls as an example of good progression, more specifically the recent entry of Skyrim.
The numbers could obviously use some tweaking - and keep in mind Elder Scrolls is not a number oriented game - but they are INCREDIBLY tame compared to the MMO genre. You start with 100 Health and can finish the game with only about 250 Health. If you completely invest 5 points and completely master a weapon type, you only increase your damage by 100%.


No matter the cries of "PEOPLE LIKE BIG NUMBERS!", two points still stand.
First, if you let big numbers keep growing, they will get WAY out of hand. Especially in a continuous online environment which has content updates.
Second, letting big numbers keep growing makes games VERY hard to balance, especially for PVP. And many people love PVP.
 

OldNewNewOld

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I don't know any character progression system that doesn't have leveling up.
The only difference is that some of them have the leveling up in the background and show the player something else.

^TES games have leveling up. But instead of the game placing points based on your class, it gives you those points to invest wherever you want. But it's still leveling up.
 

Yuno Gasai

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Nov 6, 2010
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I wouldn't say that leveling up itself is outdated, but the way in which it's implemented and used is. The fact of the matter is that some people find it highly rewarding to level up - it provides you with a nice little sense of achievement when you learn that your character has become more powerful (even if the leveling system used renders the level gain fairly superfluous). It's also one way of tracking progression - level brackets are a good way of progressing the story, guiding the player from one area to the next, letting enemies gradually build in strength until the 'final showdown'.

... Unfortunately, things don't usually pan out as epic as that. With World of Warcraft, that old long-running joke that you spend most of your (WoW) life killing boars was actually reasonably accurate; and if you weren't grinding, you were completing trivial tasks. 'Go here, kill X creatures, come back. Go here, collect X items, come back. Go talk to X, come back.'

Because an awful lot of MMOs are using World of Warcraft as the starting point, it means that there isn't an awful lot of deviation in terms of the MMO model as a whole. I'm gonna shamelessly attribute this to the mentality of, "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". WoW continues to reap in millions of pounds a year, and inevitably the MMO companies want a slice of that profit. Unfortunately, they ignore the things that WoW doesn't do well, and ultimately their games lack what WoW will always have above other MMO's - accessibility and familiarity.

One of WoW's biggest selling points has been that it can run even on the lowest end of the gaming PC spectrum. MMO developers now want to go bigger and brighter, and that sadly means leaving players without decent hardware out in the dust.

I'm actually deviating from the point, so to get back on track..

I seriously think more MMOs need to incorporate an Elder Scrolls type leveling system, where your abilities improve as you use them. It gives you an incentive to experiment with different abilities, and also helps you to tailor your character to what you want it to be. The trouble with giving players a set number of abilities and very little variation between them is that everyone ultimately ends up the same, and you feel as though the choices you make are worthless.

I realize that giving the player the option to create builds (like in Guild Wars) also runs that same risk (because some builds will undoubtedly be stronger than others), but at least they have the option to play the way they want, rather than the way which is 'tried and tested'.
 

CloudAtlas

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I knew I remembered something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI&list=UUUzj5q3v-6umt_NOCR709Ng&index=31

A well-reasoned opinion on the issue.
 

The Wykydtron

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Sep 23, 2010
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I don't really play MMO's but when my friends who play WoW go "hey you can get a level 80 character free now! You should totally grind until 90 so you can raid with us!"

Giving a 80 account seems bizzare to me, you miss all the leveling up if you like that kind of thing yet for people who hate grinding for levels you still have grind another ten to get to endgame. I get the impression that WoW is all about good endgame content now so why not give a level 90 character for free as well and be done with it?

Now there's leveling up in LoL which is essential to the entire game. The amount of times I have died because the guy I was against hit 6 milliseconds before I did and just all in'd me out of nowhere...

Then again levels are strictly one way with no "trees" and the like. It's "max skill X, Y then Z with your ult whenever you can"

Like how Katarina should always max W then Q then E in that order. Anyone who maxes Q first is wrong :mad:

Unless you are REALLY countered and can't get in to last hit without lobbing blades for a distance
 

Esotera

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Eh, I'd say it works quite well in games where you don't have to grind for hours and hours, and can choose attributes that can be suited to a situation in the game (like in Skyrim & Dota). It has to be carefully considered though...levelling up in Mass Effect sucked in my opinion as it was either too detailed or just left in as an artefact.
 

Little Gray

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x-Tomfoolery-x said:
I can't help but think of Monster Hunter. It has no leveling system. Just fighting monsters to acquire materials for better gear. Then using that gear to kill bigger monsters, then taking those materials to make even better gear. Which again will be used to hunt even larger monsters.
That does not work in mmos though or any game with a rotating player base. The new player does not want to have to grind through three years of content just to be able to play with his friend who convinced him to buy the game.
 

Korten12

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x-Tomfoolery-x said:
Little Gray said:
x-Tomfoolery-x said:
I can't help but think of Monster Hunter. It has no leveling system. Just fighting monsters to acquire materials for better gear. Then using that gear to kill bigger monsters, then taking those materials to make even better gear. Which again will be used to hunt even larger monsters.
That does not work in mmos though or any game with a rotating player base. The new player does not want to have to grind through three years of content just to be able to play with his friend who convinced him to buy the game.
Pfft. Nope. You don't have to grind through 3 years of content to be able to play Monster Hunter.
You can get a decent set of gear in less than an afternoon.
Problem is, Monster Hunter doesn't change. When you buy Ultimate, you don't expect that in four month your gear to be worthless because there isn't going to be a major content patch with new gear. It also doesn't have a horizontal armor grind curve because the fact that you need better gear to take on G monsters since they do more damage. Sure maybe if your really insanely good you can win with lower-grade armor but there isn't much of a point to putting that disadvantage on yourself.

So if monster hunter kept making new levels past Rank G, then it would essentially require you to go through the entire sets of gear to get that one. If they added Rank B, F, S, and so on till G is far into the past. Than unless they have some short cut, you will most likely need to go through all previous rank to get to the new one.

Maybe i'm wrong, I don't know how the Monster Hunter MMO deals with it unless they keep making new monster types and not increase anything from Rank G which seems kind of dull since it would never get more difficult. Although maybe that is the point.

The only way I can see it now is that they basically start voiding out old content with new content which isn't good...
 

The White Hunter

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Oct 19, 2011
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MMO's? No thats fine.

I'm completely sick of it in shooters though. Particularly Battlefield which adopted the COD model of level to unlock gear then kill to unlock attachments. The difference being Battlefield is more about teamwork than kills and thus the focus is shitfted in a negative direction. BC2 was better in that once you had a red dot or a scope for a class you had it for any gun in the class. Only issue there is that levelling was glacial.
 

deathbydeath

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I'd like to see more "horizontal leveling" systems- ones where power doesn't increase but specialization does. It'd be more fun to build a character this way, especially if the the system was designed in a way as to incorporate more play styles into it. This would primarily work for PvP shooters, though, but it would be nothing short of lovely if this kind of leveling was built with the underrecognized Pick 10 system from BLOPS 2.
 

tsb247

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I don't mind leveling up when it is used in a way that makes sense. RPGs like Skyrim and traditional dungeon crawlers usually work for me.

However, I hate the idea when it is applied to shooters. I can't stand leveling, unlocks, and perks that exist in nearly every shooter nowadays. Why do I have to be "x" level to use this weapon? In reality, I could just walk over, pick one up and use it with no problems at all. Why should I be "y" level to call in this support option. Why shouldn't I be able to just pick up a radio and call in that airstrike? In my opinion, they are only features to pad gameplay. I don't see them as adding any value to the experience.

Sure, I tolerated the above features for a while. Back when I played Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142, I was happy enough to accept unlocks and whatnot. Then I grew up and realized that it doesn't add anything. Once you unlock everything, that's it! It's just another shooter with gobs of support options, weapons, and gadgets that you will probably only use a fraction of.
 

tsb247

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I don't mind leveling up when it is used in a way that makes sense. RPGs like Skyrim and traditional dungeon crawlers usually work for me.

However, I hate the idea when it is applied to shooters. I can't stand leveling, unlocks, and perks that exist in nearly every shooter nowadays. Why do I have to be "x" level to use this weapon? In reality, I could just walk over, pick one up and use it with no problems at all. Why should I be "y" level to call in this support option. Why shouldn't I be able to just pick up a radio and call in that airstrike? In my opinion, they are only features to pad gameplay. I don't see them as adding any value to the experience.

Sure, I tolerated the above features for a while. Back when I played Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142, I was happy enough to accept unlocks and whatnot. Then I grew up and realized that it doesn't add anything. Once you unlock everything, that's it! It's just another shooter with gobs of support options, weapons, and gadgets that you will probably only use a fraction of.
 

Shpongled

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I actually really enjoyed leveling in WoW. End-game was where i spent most of my time, but looking back, the majority of that time was spent grinding for raiding stuff and waiting around for people.

Idk how it is now but there was actually plenty of stuff to keep me interested throughout the leveling process, sure lots of quests were kill 10 things, fetch quests etc, but there were usually interesting questlines going on and the environments were all unique. That and it was always fun being able to mess around with abilities and talents and not having to stick to the strict min/max build/equipping that raiding was all about.

I think nowadays in WoW end-game has become far more the focus and leveling is just seen as a chore to be done before someone can reach the joys of hanging around in Dalaran, or repeatedly doing the same daily quests every day at max level. People don't bother to stop and smell the roses (or read the quest text), because either it's the 10th character they're rushing to max level in a desperate bid to cling on to a game that long since got old for them, or they're a new player that's rushing to max level because that's what everyone, including blizzard, is telling them to do.

I genuinely miss the days leveling up in vanilla wow, when the world was actually busy with other people leveling, rag-tag 5-mans being organised in local chat, people talking, meeting new people and actually making new friends etc. I don't miss the days of idling in dalaran once i'd finished my daily routine of daily quests, random dungeons with people from random servers where no one even bothers talking because the content is a joke and we'll never see each other again anyway, and mat farming (ie, more grinding).

In short, i don't think leveling is an outdated mechanic. WoW has certainly fucked itself over and is slowly imploding, but i don't think thats because of it's leveling system, just the way they've handling it over the years with the addition of updates and expansions.
 

CloudAtlas

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Shpongled said:
I genuinely miss the days leveling up in vanilla wow, when the world was actually busy with other people leveling, rag-tag 5-mans being organised in local chat, people talking, meeting new people and actually making new friends etc. I don't miss the days of idling in dalaran once i'd finished my daily routine of daily quests, random dungeons with people from random servers where no one even bothers talking because the content is a joke and we'll never see each other again anyway, and mat farming (ie, more grinding).

In short, i don't think leveling is an outdated mechanic.
That's one of the points. If characters did not become wildly more powerful as they gain levels, if there were no regions appropriate for a certain level range only, it would be easier to create content for all regions that is meaningful for experienced people too. Consequently, there would be no dead zones.
 

Shpongled

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CloudAtlas said:
Shpongled said:
I genuinely miss the days leveling up in vanilla wow, when the world was actually busy with other people leveling, rag-tag 5-mans being organised in local chat, people talking, meeting new people and actually making new friends etc. I don't miss the days of idling in dalaran once i'd finished my daily routine of daily quests, random dungeons with people from random servers where no one even bothers talking because the content is a joke and we'll never see each other again anyway, and mat farming (ie, more grinding).

In short, i don't think leveling is an outdated mechanic.
That's one of the points. If characters did not become wildly more powerful as they gain levels, if there were no regions appropriate for a certain level range only, it would be easier to create content for all regions that is meaningful for experienced people too. Consequently, there would be no dead zones.
I can't argue against that, but all of that seems to be more of an argument against the way WoW handled leveling, rather than an argument against leveling itself. Without any form of progression there would be no reason for most of that content to exist. You could use gear and items as your form of progression of choice, but ultimately it seems you'd still end up in the same position of people rushing through certain areas, getting the gear they need, then idling in Dalaran until raid time whilst moaning about all that game they had to play before they could play the game. I mean, you could stick some multiplayer dungeon onto the end of Skyrim that people can only access at lvl XX and that would create the same problems WoW has. "Why do i have to go out and do single-player quests and explore this huge world when all i want to do is this end-game dungeon?". The only way to get past this that i see is to make all content the same level as the player. Like Oblivion. We all know how that worked out.

When did leveling become a chore to do before you could play the actual game and not part of the game itself?
 

Korica

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CloudAtlas said:
I knew I remembered something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI&list=UUUzj5q3v-6umt_NOCR709Ng&index=31

A well-reasoned opinion on the issue.
That is extremely well articulated, thank you for sharing it!

ExploreHer said:
I once thought that leveling up in general should be a thing of the past until looking at the "dota" system (Dota 2, League of Legends, etc). On Dota, leveling up is a core part of the gameplay. The game's balancing, gameplay, and tone is set by leveling. Unlike an MMO, you don't keep your levels after the match is done. Leveling up is a part of the actual game as opposed to an obstacle for the inevitable "endgame".
The Wykydtron said:
Now there's leveling up in LoL which is essential to the entire game. The amount of times I have died because the guy I was against hit 6 milliseconds before I did and just all in'd me out of nowhere...

Then again levels are strictly one way with no "trees" and the like. It's "max skill X, Y then Z with your ult whenever you can"

Like how Katarina should always max W then Q then E in that order. Anyone who maxes Q first is wrong :mad:
While I do agree that the "leveling" system is MOBA games is well-balanced, I do not see how it could be transferred to an MMO setting. Especially since MOBAs are strictly PVP.