LGBT in children's cartoons: Who did it better?

[Something Amyss]

I dunno, is it really weak though? Korrasami wasn't exactly a Prize Winning spot of writing, but to me that's perfectly fine. 5-6/10 is pretty acceptable in my books for stuff like this. Certainly could've done better and given it some stronger foreshadowing, but ehhh, Nickelodeon.

Granted, I also took the Mass Effect 3 Ending as 'ehh 5/10, nothing to lose your head over', so, take what I say with however much salt as you please.

And, just as an aside, it was such a nice change to have the resolution of the 'Love Triangle' to be 'Both Girls fell for each other after dating the dude'. It warmed the deep parts of my bisexual heart to see some writers finally take that path for once.

Oh god, don't get me started on ME3. >.>

But I have trouble with it based on the fact it seems you really need Word of God to clarify that it even happened. This seems to be the status quo for the most part, where LGBT individuals are barely visible and treated like a minority. So much so, in fact, I'm surprised OP doesn't favour Korra for not being political and shoving our faces in it. My admittedly pain-addled brain does have its moments when it comes to remembering who's railed against diversity in entertainment.

I mean, I suppose one could argue it's the best we could expect, except Steven Universe appears to do it better by actually doing it on some level.

 

[Rylot]

On the subject of LGBT in other cartoons, Gravity Falls was going to feature a same sex couple of little old grannies in the Love God episode, but Disney said no.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Though an argument could be made for the two cops

Why Sheriff Blubs and Deputy Durland are okay, but the two grannies are not, I have no idea.

That would have been pretty cool. That's the first time I've been genuinely disappointed GF is on Disney. Since they've started running Tennant Era Doctor Who I wonder how they'll handle Captain Jack? Liberal amounts of editing probably...

 

[residentout1]

am on the fence on the one hand you have Legend of Korra not started at the begging but started but came when they started to like the characters but they had to keep it subtle because of nick being nick. Steven Universe on the other hand you have the gems who are Genderless witch is how cartoon network gets a way witch because people can't complain about it.am I the fence Korra has real lesbian love (for lack of a better phrase) or the Gems witch looks like lesbian love but in the show its not.

 

[Pyramid Head]

I dunno, is it really weak though? Korrasami wasn't exactly a Prize Winning spot of writing, but to me that's perfectly fine. 5-6/10 is pretty acceptable in my books for stuff like this. Certainly could've done better and given it some stronger foreshadowing, but ehhh, Nickelodeon.

Granted, I also took the Mass Effect 3 Ending as 'ehh 5/10, nothing to lose your head over', so, take what I say with however much salt as you please.

And, just as an aside, it was such a nice change to have the resolution of the 'Love Triangle' to be 'Both Girls fell for each other after dating the dude'. It warmed the deep parts of my bisexual heart to see some writers finally take that path for once.

Again, i feel it being played a little more subtly was the strength of the relationship. They both got out of a bad break-up with someone who had serious commitment issues and was a dick to both of them, were at that point smart enough to know to play it more slowly, and once you're aware romance between them is a possibility you start to realize why they had so many scenes together and spot the clues in those scenes. Unless you're familiar with those relationships and spot it right away, like a friend of mine did. The most glaring one is that Asami had been taking care of Korra while she was paralyzed for WEEKS. Try to imagine the tasks Asami was doing for Korra who could barely move her arms and couldn't move her legs at all, and ask yourself how you'd have to feel about that person to be willing to do it without it being your job.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Hard to say-

Legend of Korra
It was all about sutblety which not everyone picked up including the ending when it was pretty much thrown at us.

Steven Universe
While I find the love alot stronger than Korra but remember, the gems are class as genderless. I mean yes they still look like female in the eyes of an human but they still class as genderless (also lol on SU wiki, aparantly there are still idiotic people who think they ain't lesbian. Don't ask me why).

Granted if I have to picked one then I am leading toward Steven Universe eventhought you don't see much interation with Ruby and Sapphire that much (so I just see it as ultimate love). I mean Garnet is a union of eternal love and Ruby and Sapphire loved for each other is so strong, they can pretty much keep an pernament hold as Garnet. Also I think for a fusion, Ganert is also a close perfect fusion since it seen temporary fusion have extra limbs or eyes (well ok Garnet as three eyes but everyone else are usually four).

 

[bluelucied]

On a note to LGBT representation, SU does give us Stevonnie, who fans have pegged as a pretty solid Non-Binary character.

Also, Rebecca Sugar, the creator of SU, has a history of a more involved stance concerning LGBT. Look at Marceline/Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time. It's also been a consistent theme in SU, female (or at least NB-with female pronoun) relationships.

The creators of LoK, on the other hand, pushed the Makorra pairing hard, all the way from Book 1 to the beginning of Book 4. They pushed it to the point where they ridiculed their fans that shipped anything else, until in Book 4 they even said that they were not going to pair Korra up with anyone else at the end, which was promptly flipped in favor of their Korrasami-leaning ending. Before then, that was their only stance on anything LGBT. That's it, Korrasami, in four seasons. Nothing else.

I dunno, is it really weak though? Korrasami wasn't exactly a Prize Winning spot of writing, but to me that's perfectly fine. 5-6/10 is pretty acceptable in my books for stuff like this. Certainly could've done better and given it some stronger foreshadowing, but ehhh, Nickelodeon.

Granted, I also took the Mass Effect 3 Ending as 'ehh 5/10, nothing to lose your head over', so, take what I say with however much salt as you please.

And, just as an aside, it was such a nice change to have the resolution of the 'Love Triangle' to be 'Both Girls fell for each other after dating the dude'. It warmed the deep parts of my bisexual heart to see some writers finally take that path for once.

Again, i feel it being played a little more subtly was the strength of the relationship. They both got out of a bad break-up with someone who had serious commitment issues and was a dick to both of them, were at that point smart enough to know to play it more slowly, and once you're aware romance between them is a possibility you start to realize why they had so many scenes together and spot the clues in those scenes. Unless you're familiar with those relationships and spot it right away, like a friend of mine did. The most glaring one is that Asami had been taking care of Korra while she was paralyzed for WEEKS. Try to imagine the tasks Asami was doing for Korra who could barely move her arms and couldn't move her legs at all, and ask yourself how you'd have to feel about that person to be willing to do it without it being your job.

But this is one of the reasons that Korrasami, as a relationship, was just so poor. If anything Korra committed nothing to the relationship, everything that could have been seen as romantic and caring came from Asami. Korra really just used her, which from a canon standpoint is just sad. And the fact that they both dated Mako before coming to this realization that oh we're interested in each other and we'll resolve this love triangle by dating each other after dating the same dude sets a dangerous precedent for any bi/lesbian youth that watched the show.

And the fact that Bryke had to publish a freaking essay to clarify their stance on Korrasami where the creators swore up and down that Korrasami was planned (Konietzko goes so far as to say he's the FIRST Korrasami shipper), they insult anyone who said or thinks otherwise (they have a bad history of insulting their fans), and then they flip everything they ever did to make themselves appear progressive and have the show end on a 'positive' note rather then the sour string of disappointment coming from the fandom in the finale's wake.

Hands down, Steven Universe gets my vote for representation, and we've still got all of season 2 and an upcoming season 3 still.

 

[Ishal]

And the fact that Bryke had to publish a freaking essay to clarify their stance on Korrasami where the creators swore up and down that Korrasami was planned (Konietzko goes so far as to say he's the FIRST Korrasami shipper), they insult anyone who said or thinks otherwise (they have a bad history of insulting their fans), and then they flip everything they ever did to make themselves appear progressive and have the show end on a 'positive' note rather then the sour string of disappointment coming from the fandom in the finale's wake.

Wait wait wait... he said that? Really? That he was the "FIRST" Korrasami shipper?

That's... well I'd have to see evidence. But am inclined to believe that from what I've read of him, and from him. That speaks volumes, it really does. That he considers himself not only a shipper, but the first one. Using fan and fandom terms to describe what he was doing. It's not shipping when he does, he's the fucking creator. When he does it, as the primary source, it's just plain writing... it's not shipping when it's done in canon.

This does not reflect well at all.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

And the fact that Bryke had to publish a freaking essay to clarify their stance on Korrasami where the creators swore up and down that Korrasami was planned (Konietzko goes so far as to say he's the FIRST Korrasami shipper), they insult anyone who said or thinks otherwise (they have a bad history of insulting their fans), and then they flip everything they ever did to make themselves appear progressive and have the show end on a 'positive' note rather then the sour string of disappointment coming from the fandom in the finale's wake.

Wait wait wait... he said that? Really? That he was the "FIRST" Korrasami shipper?

That's... well I'd have to see evidence. But am inclined to believe that from what I've read of him, and from him. That speaks volumes, it really does. That he considers himself not only a shipper, but the first one. Using fan and fandom terms to describe what he was doing. It's not shipping when he does, he's the fucking creator. When he does it, as the primary source, it's just plain writing... it's not shipping when it's done in canon.

This does not reflect well at all.

I have bragging rights as the first Korrasami shipper (I win!). As we wrote Book 1, before the audience had ever laid eyes on Korra and Asami, it was an idea I would kick around the writers? room. At first we didn?t give it much weight, not because we think same-sex relationships are a joke, but because we never assumed it was something we would ever get away with depicting on an animated show for a kids network in this day and age, or at least in 2010.

Source [http://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/105916338157/korrasami-is-canon-you-can-celebrate-it-embrace]

Funny enough that statement follows this statement from earlier in the post

Was Korrasami ?endgame,? meaning, did we plan it from the start of the series? No, but nothing other than Korra?s spiritual arc was. Asami was a duplicitous spy when Mike and I first conceived her character. Then we liked her too much so we reworked the story to keep her in the dark regarding her father?s villainous activities.

So Asami was supposed to be a "duplicitous spy" but he also shipped her with Korra before anyone else.

 

[Shiftygiant]

Korra did a good job at being the ice breaker, and it's a shame the creators simply could not go any further.

Steven Universe has better representation and does a good job at introducing and explaining gay relationships in an easy and nice way, as well as expanding on general life lessons.

 

[Ishal]

Funny enough that statement follows this statement from earlier in the post

Was Korrasami ?endgame,? meaning, did we plan it from the start of the series? No, but nothing other than Korra?s spiritual arc was. Asami was a duplicitous spy when Mike and I first conceived her character. Then we liked her too much so we reworked the story to keep her in the dark regarding her father?s villainous activities.

So Asami was supposed to be a "duplicitous spy" but he also shipped her with Korra before anyone else.

...

Spoiler

That's... that's just the type of crap I'd expect from someone in a fandom. In fandom it doesn't have to make sense. It's fine there, because that's where shipping belongs. Not in the writing room of the damn show... But with the love triangle in season one... it makes so much more sense now.

Sometimes I wonder if our glorious information age is truly for the best when it comes to things like this. Creators interacting with fandoms, and possibly being influenced by them. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'd prefer some distance between the staff of a show and fandom. Light hearted or no, this really doesn't do much to help the case against those who cried pandering.

 

[Areloch]

Funny enough that statement follows this statement from earlier in the post

Was Korrasami ?endgame,? meaning, did we plan it from the start of the series? No, but nothing other than Korra?s spiritual arc was. Asami was a duplicitous spy when Mike and I first conceived her character. Then we liked her too much so we reworked the story to keep her in the dark regarding her father?s villainous activities.

So Asami was supposed to be a "duplicitous spy" but he also shipped her with Korra before anyone else.

...

Spoiler

That's... that's just the type of crap I'd expect from someone in a fandom. In fandom it doesn't have to make sense. It's fine there, because that's where shipping belongs. Not in the writing room of the damn show... But with the love triangle in season one... it makes so much more sense now.

Sometimes I wonder if out glorious information age is truly for the best when it comes to things like this. Creators interacting by fandoms, and possibly being influenced by them. Maybe I'm gold fashioned, but I'd prefer some distance between the staff of a show and fandom. Light hearted or no, this really doesn't do much to help the case against those who cried pandering.

You do realize that's how the creative process has ALWAYS worked, right?

There are many a tale of authors starting a story, writing characters a certain way, and then they let them evolve as it goes, and then realize they like the character too much to keep them in the original role.

 

[Redryhno]

Can I say neither? I mean, if we're going purely for LGBT rep, then Korra wins by default considering the Steven Universe characters aren't exactly female or male, they're just...sentient alien gems with a massive amount of projection abilities, right?(I can't find anything of worth in the show so I stopped after three episodes don't know all that much about it. Also if you're going to put sandals on a character, why not just remove them completely? It's about the same amount of protection and gives less time for the character to get dressed)

But if we're going for more indepth stuff, then Korra can't win simply by the way nearly every season was handled by the creators(blame Nick all you want, just as much falls on the writers themselves, you get parameters you either follow them or you work on your subtlety and drawing parallels as hard as you can, and Avatar isn't exactly the best at subtlety as we've seen, especially when it comes to relationships).

The finale just...wasn't well handled or led up to all that well, especially when the creators then turn on anyone that thought differently from them with that "heteronormativity guyz" bullblog(which, in a way, is a big part of my problem with Kung Jin, but that's another thing.). They had basically four seasons of a love triangle that makes bad ecchi harems look good in comparison and then a "nope, we gots bisexuals now, it's all good" ending and the aforementioned blogpost.

So, my answer is neither. Korra didn't really develop any relational ties beyond family and friends(even poor Bolin just got his heart/ass kicked around for the entirety of the show for laughs by girls he was into, and Lin...meh, badass and all, but Tenzin chose Pema and had four kids with her, I don't think Lin had much of a chance, especially when she flew off the hook after they were broken up...), and Steven Universe by the fact that the gems are just gems and don't really conform to a human's perception of LGBTQRTUVEKLALEIJNLWXYZ or gender things.

 

[Ishal]

You do realize that's how the creative process has ALWAYS worked, right?

There are many a tale of authors starting a story, writing characters a certain way, and then they let them evolve as it goes, and then realize they like the character too much to keep them in the original role.

Yes... but you do realize that only works if their new vision for the characters A) fits what's already been presented and established in the story at that point and B) the creators are in a position to execute on it in a satisfactory manner.

Such a case did not happen with Korra, sorry to say :/