Liberals, progressives and conservatives of note sign open letter to end cancel culture. (Noam Chomsky/J.K. Rowling/Gloria Steinem/David Brooks etc.)

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Aegix Drakan

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This may be my silly optimist self speaking, but I don't think normal relatively happy people mistreat others to this degree. Sure, you'll always have psychopaths, but if fewer people have problems in need for a convenient scapegoat, fewer people will be mistreated. If you don't have bad job security you won't blame the immigrants looking for jobs as much, if everyone is taken care off there will not be a need for gangs to form in the streets which will reduce the perceptions of minorities being more criminal, which eventually will change how they are treated. I think this is how you solve all the big identity politics issues we are having to wrestle with right now.
Unfortunately, humanity isn't quite so logical.

Yes, people's standard of living DOES have a big impact, since if things are going well for them, people won't be so quick to look for scapegoats for their problems.

But you seriously underestimate the power of ignorance, under-education and mis-education and decades of social programming settling in, making people loath to change their ways of thinking.

Hell, otherwise kind, loving, gentle people with good lives and a decent education, and are even semi-woke-ish can fall prey to bigotry and not even realize it.

Like, my immediate family is pretty liberal and think racists are horrible people. They have a very comfortable, solidly upper-middle-class Canadian lifestyle. Hell, we used to have a condo in florida we visited every year, and my parents go on vacations every year so long as there's no expensive house renovations to do.

And yet, everyone older than my brother and I were scared shitless of Singh from the NDP last election. Why? Cuz he wore a turban and looks vaguely middle-eastern. Explicitly.

The typical refrain from those who weren't neutral on Singh was, without fail, some variant of "Oh, you know how THOSE people are! They're all pushy and stuff! They're too assertive! They'll just get all the stuff THEY want and we'll be left with nothing! We need someone to look after US! This is CANADA! Yes, I know he was born here, but how can I trust he'll look after US and not THEM!" and "It's not bigoted to want to protect your people!".

The worst from my immediate famly came from a member who is otherwise VERY critical of the motives of those in power and is a gentle and wise soul who basically never gets seriously angry and shouty, and built a business from nothing successfully enough to retire at a somewhat early age. He went into a full on rant about "muslims ruining the country". And when I said "actually, he's sihk", he went "Same goddamn difference! This is CANADA!!".

If even otherwise sweet, openminded and somewhat woke on LBGT issues (they don't "get" trans people but are like "Well, whatever makes them happy!"), and well-off people like them can fall into fear of "THEM", I can't be purely optimistic that just solving everyone's economic issues will solve bigotry.

And if we look at my extended family....hoo boy. My VERY wealthy aunt who got to retire early is the "Liberals are commies who want to enslave us and Justin Trudeau is probably actually a woman. Also, the natives are ingrate parasites" kind of conservative.

Let ALONE places like the bible belt of the US, where the bigotry and actual PRIDE in their ignorance is full on BAKED into the culture. My dad has stories of insane ignorance and casual racism even among well-off people he spoke to when he visited down there for work purposes in his mid/late 20's. That takes more than just making their lives better to fix.

So yeah. Fixing quality of life for everyone will go a long LONG way to making things better. But it's nowhere near a Panacea. Ignorance and fear and misunderstandings, bolstered by years of it settling in so you're unwilling to change...That's also a serious barrier.

They can make more money in the long run by widening the notion of acceptable thought and behavior because it gives you more different sorts of customers with their own niches for you to monetize more aggressively. You can sell the homophobic hat and the gay pride hat and if both can be worn freely you sell more hats, otherwise the homophobe just goes without and that's a sale you just lost.

What they're doing right now is a short term strategy of caving to the crybabies. You can easily argue for a more long-term liberal values based strategy.
Counterpoint, if the company sells homophobic hats and gay pride hats, they'll still just alienate all the LBGT people and their allies.

Why? Because LGBT people will be like "How can I feel welcome buying stuff from this company, when they're outright making merch EXPLICITLY designed for people who think I shouldn't be allowed to exist? CLEARLY they think that the people who want me to stop existing or am a freak are worth the same as me, who lives in fear of those people harming me. Fine, I'm going to take my business elsewhere and tell my friends about this."

And just like that, BAM, cancelled.

Now, of course, the company could be like "we respect ALL opinions, we won't take sides, free speech, homophobes are people too".......But that's just going to alienate the LGBT people even more, because "Our right to exist isn't a debate. If you make merch for the homophobes that hate me, then screw you". And then the controversy will become loud enough for the woke/liberal/centrist-not-bigoted people to catch notice and some of them will find it icky too, and then THEY might stop buying from that company.

So, then the company once again has to choose which side is worth more money to them. The safest "middle road option" is to just not take a side at all and sell neither a homophobe cap nor a pride cap and say literally nothing that could be construed as support for LGBT people, or condoning of homophobes. ...But of course, that's not going to sell quite as hot as some "trend of the month pride caps", and some people will see them as cowards who are fence-sitting on the issue.

Finally...There are companies that DO take a "moral stand" regardless of money lost. ...Sadly, most of them are on the bigoted side, like chick-fil-a who are VERY much against LGBT people, to the point where they'll take that loss of money if it means they can hold onto their bigoted beliefs.
 

Trunkage

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The "why aren't we talking about X?" argument can be disingenuous - it's one step removed from whataboutism.

But that aside, yes, death threats are probably worse, but we all agree that death threats are bad. Cancel culture however, is a more morphic beast. It's morphic because it used to be the domain of the (religious) right, but now it's an instrument primarily wielded by the left (not all the time, but most of the time). It's morphic because people can equate criticism with cancelling. It's morphic because there was a time when people more or less universally agreed that this kind of stuff was bad, but now, it operates under a veneer of social justice. And even if you're into SoJus, I'm not convinced that cancelling works even pays off, because as soon as you make a work 'tainted goods,' more people will want to consume it. It's backfire effect in action.
*NASCAR, NFL, NBA, ADDIDAS, Nike, Papa Johns, Disney, Marvel, Universities, quite a few gay and trans who Rowling is trying to hate on enters the chat*

Yeah, no. The Religious Right are very much doing this all the time

I do think its bad that the Left has decided to copy the Right. But then, the Right won in 2016 based on a Cancelling platform, so why wouldn't you? It seems to be the road to success

Edit: I also suggested we do a sweep of all these things. It's a willingness to compromise. Because I'm not as worried about Cancel Culture as death threats but would be willing to deal with both if hat makes it more likely to happen.
 
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Trunkage

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Has anyone here read the Theory of Moral Sentiments? Written by Adam Smith? You know, grandfather of Capitalism? Because he was explaining some of this stuff 300 years ago
 
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Revnak

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We live in a time where the left is the side predominantly in control of the media so I get hit over the head by them more right now so I find them more annoying. It's like the right went after games as a scapegoat for shootings and then the left came after games as a scapegoat for sexism. Not a fan of either of those.
CNN and MSNBC said my candidate was gonna hang their pundits in Central Park and compared his voters to Nazis for being mean online. Most major newspapers rally behind losers like David Brooks for disliking Trump and present apologia for their war crimes. The media is not left. Fuck off with that bullshit.
 

Specter Von Baren

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CNN and MSNBC said my candidate was gonna hang their pundits in Central Park and compared his voters to Nazis for being mean online. Most major newspapers rally behind losers like David Brooks for disliking Trump and present apologia for their war crimes. The media is not left. Fuck off with that bullshit.
The source of information we use is predominantly the internet, which is predominantly controlled by the left, yet you're using newspapers as your example of how the right controls the media? How many kids, or teens do you think have ever even read a newspaper? Mainstream T.V. is mostly left leaning, as is the mainstream media of the internet.
 

Revnak

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The source of information we use is predominantly the internet, which is predominantly controlled by the left, yet you're using newspapers as your example of how the right controls the media? How many kids, or teens do you think have ever even read a newspaper? Mainstream T.V. is mostly left leaning, as is the mainstream media of the internet.
The pop stars are gay now, oh no. Cable News and most actual journalism outlets are managed by tech billionaires and centrists. Lady Gaga does not control the media no matter how much your hollow culture warrior rhetoric relies on her doing so.
 

Specter Von Baren

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The pop stars are gay now, oh no. Cable News and most actual journalism outlets are managed by tech billionaires and centrists. Lady Gaga does not control the media no matter how much your hollow culture warrior rhetoric relies on her doing so.
Ok, so maybe there's a problem of definitions here. What do you think it means to be left, leftist, or left leaning?
 

Revnak

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Ok, so maybe there's a problem of definitions here. What do you think it means to be left, leftist, or left leaning?
A definition that doesn’t include Jeff Bezos, Iraq War profiteers, Mike Bloomberg, or any of the white suburbanite hand wringing that MSNBC and CNN performed during the primary. In short, a definition that includes none of our major news networks or newspapers.
Edit- seriously, in what world are news organizations owned and built by the wealthiest men in the world leftist?
 
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Specter Von Baren

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A definition that doesn’t include Jeff Bezos, Iraq War profiteers, Mike Bloomberg, or any of the white suburbanite hand wringing that MSNBC and CNN performed during the primary. In short, a definition that includes none of our major news networks or newspapers.
Edit- seriously, in what world are news organizations owned and built by the wealthiest men in the world leftist?
What does being wealthy have to do with whether someone is left leaning or right leaning?
 

BrawlMan

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That letter ain't gonna do shit. I find it highly dubious; especially it coming from those names.

My reaction more or less matches this:

 

Revnak

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The only person mad here is you because you're not making any sense here.
Bro, you cannot be a leftist, a socialist of any sort, and be a billionaire. You cannot be a socialist and own/operate Microsoft or Amazon. They are incongruous things. The only metric by which, say, Mike Bloomberg or Jack Twitter-guy, is a leftist is the purely aesthetic cultural wars bullshit you think matters. Because you’re upset you got told to stop using fag as a slur. I cannot imagine the absurd reality of developing an idea of politics that hinges entirely on what words are mean now and why that upsets me. I hope that at the very least you live comfortably alien to any real struggle, as otherwise I’d need to feel sad about this.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Bro, you cannot be a leftist, a socialist of any sort, and be a billionaire.
So your definition of leftist is that it's a synonym of socialist?

You cannot be a socialist and own/operate Microsoft or Amazon. They are incongruous things.
Well if a socialist can be the leader of a country then why can't they own a corporation? Because being the person in charge of a country gives one far more control over the means of production than a business owner has since the government dictates the laws which people follow and has the military to enforce them.

The only metric by which, say, Mike Bloomberg or Jack Twitter-guy, is a leftist is the purely aesthetic cultural wars bullshit you think matters. Because you’re upset you got told to stop using fag as a slur.
I don't believe I've ever used that word nor ever given any indication in any of my posts that I would want to. You made a complaint earlier about people making assumptions in regards to leftists being unable to criticize leftists, which, in context, was about you being willing to criticize Mao and Stalin which means you believe them to be leftist, yet now you're making a far bigger assumption about myself in regards to homosexuality and words that I don't use nor have ever wanted to use.

I cannot imagine the absurd reality of developing an idea of politics that hinges entirely on what words are mean now and why that upsets me.
I know right? Modern culture is just crazy with how it insists on playing musical chairs with word definitions so that it doesn't have to own up to hypocrisy.

I hope that at the very least you live comfortably alien to any real struggle, as otherwise I’d need to feel sad about this.
Oh it's far too late for that I'm afraid, though thank you for your well wishes.
 

Revnak

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So your definition of leftist is that it's a synonym of socialist?
That’s been the definition in most of the world since the mid 19th century.

Well if a socialist can be the leader of a country then why can't they own a corporation? Because being the person in charge of a country gives one far more control over the means of production than a business owner has since the government dictates the laws which people follow and has the military to enforce them.
I don’t think any socialist would propose a model of government where one dude runs/owns the government for one thing, and an opposition to private property and capitalism is what socialism is about so working to further capitalist gains is kinda antithetical to that.
I don't believe I've ever used that word nor ever given any indication in any of my posts that I would want to. You made a complaint earlier about people making assumptions in regards to leftists being unable to criticize leftists, which, in context, was about you being willing to criticize Mao and Stalin which means you believe them to be leftist, yet now you're making a far bigger assumption about myself in regards to homosexuality and words that I don't use nor have ever wanted to use.
Sure pal.
I know right? Modern culture is just crazy with how it insists on playing musical chairs with word definitions so that it doesn't have to own up to hypocrisy.
Language is socially constructed and based on context, so yeah, there’s “musical chairs.” It’s not a big deal to just go with it. Pretty easy honestly.
 

tstorm823

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Bro, you cannot be a leftist, a socialist of any sort, and be a billionaire.
Ignoring for the sake of brevity that you think socialist and left are synonyms, can you not imagine someone believing or even just expressing an idea that they down personally live out?
 

Specter Von Baren

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That’s been the definition in most of the world since the mid 19th century.
I don't believe that is at all true, most certainly its not been true for about 20 years.

I don’t think any socialist would propose a model of government where one dude runs/owns the government for one thing, and an opposition to private property and capitalism is what socialism is about so working to further capitalist gains is kinda antithetical to that.
Weren't Stalin and Mao the head honchos of their socialist governments? Didn't Stalin own a lot of stuff in the Soviet Union? Though they certainly were against capitalism, you are right on that.

Sure pal.
Well you're free to find a quote with me saying it, otherwise you're making baseless accusations.

Language is socially constructed and based on context, so yeah, there’s “musical chairs.” It’s not a big deal to just go with it. Pretty easy honestly.
Yeah it is pretty easy to go along with but that doesn't mean it's the correct thing to do.
 

Trunkage

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The media is left. You are, as recently established, very capable of disagreeing with people on the left.
This is the funniest thing I've heard all day.
Thanks for the laugh

The closest you can get is that much of the media favours Democrats. Most Democrats aren't anywhere near the left.
 
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Revnak

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I don't believe that is at all true, most certainly its not been true for about 20 years.
It is in countries that aren’t neoliberal hellholes.
Weren't Stalin and Mao the head honchos of their socialist governments? Didn't Stalin own a lot of stuff in the Soviet Union? Though they certainly were against capitalism, you are right on that.
I’ve little interest debating the structure of the Soviet Union with you but suffice to say that no, the proposed structure and actual structure never actually boiled down to “one dude is in charge” the same as any political apparatus. In any case, opposing capitalism does kinda run contrary to openly expanding the private sector’s control of various industries, which virtually all modern billionaires do. You wanna call Gates or Soros leftist go ahead, you’re absurdly wrong. I’ll be happy to see them pass into the dustbin of history when the time comes regardless of what you think.

Well you're free to find a quote with me saying it, otherwise you're making baseless accusations.
There’s this thing called deduction.
Yeah it is pretty easy to go along with but that doesn't mean it's the correct thing to do.
Nah, the right move is to just be an ass to strangers then get mad when they don’t like you.