Liberals, progressives and conservatives of note sign open letter to end cancel culture. (Noam Chomsky/J.K. Rowling/Gloria Steinem/David Brooks etc.)

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Aegix Drakan

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But I would suggest to you there may be a large overlap in the people who don't get health insurance and people who neglect their health in general.
Considering there are people a lot of people rationing their insulin in the US because they can't afford the thing that literally keeps them alive...I'm more wont to put the blame on "People can't afford it, so they only see a doctor when the problem is very advanced and problems aren't caught early".

Then again, there's a sizeable amount of people in the states who think that wearing a mask will literally kill them from lack of oxygen, so maybe Americans by and large ARE just less sensible/intelligent when it comes to taking care of their health needs.

It's not a right, it's a service, but regardless, there are probably lots of people in those countries who also die by neglecting their own health, we just don't have so clean a proxy variable for it.
Eh, if they deliberately choose not to get care that's freely given, that's on them, then. At least they're not being denied care because they can't afford it.

Either way, I REALLY get the feeling neither of us will make headway in this argument.
 

Buyetyen

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In a liberal and open minded society, the correct ideal to strive for is "I hate you as a person, but I am big enough to acknowledge that despite your horrific acts, your work in this one sector of existance is worth praise". Any movement that can't do this much is not truly left wing or liberal in the real sense of the term, especially if they can't do it due to an ideology blinding them into instantly hating something a "bad person" did just because of who it was that did it, before they even gave it a fair shot to amaze then.
So I'm not a leftist because I occasionally see an artist do something shitty and decide not to support them anymore?
 

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So I'm not a leftist because I occasionally see an artist do something shitty and decide not to support them anymore?
If it was someone whom you enjoyed the works of and would keep genuinely being a fan of if they didn't do this thing, yes, you're putting politics and mundane concerns over the sublime. At the end of the day, the whole reason we argue about these things is so that we can reach a society that allows everyone to enjoy art and culture freely and enrich their lives with sublime meaning. If, in the process of getting to a fair and equal society, you end up burning that down, then there's no meaning to such a society any longer. It's a hollow thing kept alive by life support with no life in its eyes.
 
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Buyetyen

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If it was someone whom you enjoyed the works of and would keep genuinely being a fan of if they didn't do this thing, yes, you're putting politics and mundane concerns over the sublime. At the end of the day, the whole reason we ague about these things is so that we can reach a society that allows everyone to enjoy art and culture freely and enrich their lives with sublime meaning. If, in the process of getting to a fair and equal society, you end up burning that down, then there's no meaning to such a society any longer. It's a hollow thing kept alive by life support with no life in its eyes.
Speaking of hollow things, those are some very vague feel-good platitudes, but they're all about making the person saying them feel good about themselves, not actually engaging with the real world.

In the real world, art is made by people and all the baggage that comes with them. And everybody draws the line a bit differently. Some people can still read Orson Scott Card. I can't. They're free to continue reading his books, but I just don't want to support him given the horrible policies he supports that would hurt people I care about. I enjoy cosmic horror, but I still cringe when I see all the racist shit Lovecraft put in his work and I believe the genre has outgrown him anyway. Rosemary's Baby is a really good movie. I'm not going to buy it on blu-ray while Polanski's still alive because I don't want to knowingly financially support a rapist. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but we all get to draw our lines in the sand. Yours are no less valid than mine. You're allowed to criticize the things you like and by extension the people who make them.

What I take far more issue with is the characterization of art as escapism. While that is indeed one thing it's good for, it's always been so much more than that. It is a reflection of the time, culture and people who made it, an effort by humanity to understand ourselves and our world. And people change over time. Not too long ago, guns n' Roses put out an annivesary edition of Appetite for Destruction as a boxed set with a bunch of extra, minus the controversial song One in a Million which had multiple racial and homophobic slurs. When Axl finally got around to saying why, he explained that was a song he wrote as an angry young man with a very sheltered upbringing having a culture shock from moving to LA. He dropped the song because he said he wasn't that person anymore and didn't want to re-release the song because that would effectively be endorsing its message. And as the recording artist, that's his call to make. The song is still out there. You can probably find it on YouTube. It's just going to be remastered.

And let's be real: what sublime experience am I going to get from Chik-fil-a that I couldn't get better at Wendy's?
 

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If it was someone whom you enjoyed the works of and would keep genuinely being a fan of if they didn't do this thing, yes, you're putting politics and mundane concerns over the sublime. At the end of the day, the whole reason we argue about these things is so that we can reach a society that allows everyone to enjoy art and culture freely and enrich their lives with sublime meaning. If, in the process of getting to a fair and equal society, you end up burning that down, then there's no meaning to such a society any longer. It's a hollow thing kept alive by life support with no life in its eyes.
One need only look to Lovecraft for a prime example of enjoying the work while not supporting the person. Lovecraft has had a huge influence on modern horror but it doesn't prevent fans of his work from acknowledging his racism.
 

Aegix Drakan

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The point is that it won't be decent eventually due to them canceling decent things for being politically incorrect and promoting bad things that are ticking all the boxes. The american comicbook industry is suffering from this right now for example. And it's not as if there's a general lack of interest in them either since manga is doing just fine, both here and in Japan (it's actually up compared to last year in the US too).

So yeah, again, the best way to make more money in the long run is to be more meritocratic even if that entails being less politically correct.
While I find it annoying that a lot of mediums are trying to present themselves as woke in cheap token ways that undermine the story...

I find that's honestly more the fault of bad writing and people not knowing how to not be jerks (or just trying to cash in on the woke train in a cheap an easy way) instead of the fault of...You know, trying to be inclusive or trying not to be jerks.

Also, a lot of comic fans (and game fans) seem to have this WEIRD hangup where the second you have a minority involved, they reflexively think "politics ruining my medium!" but don't bat an eye at actual political stuff. I literally don't get why. See the people mad that there's a very muscled lady in The Last of Us 2 and decrying it as "SJWs ruining believability!" when the entire point was obviously to make a female character that looked physically intimidating.

It's also possible to be politically incorrect without being a jerk. Just...You know, don't be a jerk? You can make a story that makes you go "oooh, that's...That hurts, yo" without perpetuating tired bigoted tropes and stuff, or at least examining them in a way that doesn't make it look like you condone it or whatever.

But hey, Writing is Hard, and Art is Subjective, people interpret it differently, so it's always going to leave someone super jazzed and another super upset, that's how art is.

I agree with this definition but I also see it as an abuse of the boycott. The intended use is something like for example the thing that happened when Capcom cancelled Megaman Legends 3. It's something that happens when an artistic issue is had and you want it to be corrected for the betterment of the medium as a whole. What we have is the tyranny of the minority in a commercial sense here. Just because the people who wanna cancel this thing complain it doesn't mean they represent the majority of the fanbase of a thing so they shouldn't get to speak for them or control what they get to experience.
Ok, see, I find this take VERY confusing.

So, you're saying boycotts are intended for "Hey I want this thing to do better, so I'll not support it", purely for artistic reasons for the medium's improvement...And shouldn't be applied to, say, more social stuff that impacts people's lives?

Why not? If a work of art is doing something shitty, people shouldn't say "You know, that's kind of shitty. I don't like it. I'll stop supporting it because of that, unless it stops being shitty"? Which is, in effect, what cancelling is? A whole lot of people saying "I don't like this". That's...Freedom of speech in action, no?

What recourse to they then have for this thing that's being shitty to them, aside from somehow getting the funds and people together to make the thing themselves and somehow rivaling the people who currently Make The Thing, and hoping that they're able to somehow supercede it, even though the thing being shitty to them has probably years or even decades of a head start?

And again, unless the quality drops off, the "silent majority who don't give a damn" won't really care about the stance taken, because they don't care. So why are the people who don't care either way being treated as the default group that needs to be pleased when it comes to specifically issues that impact minorities?

Though I will say that I am firmly for separating the artist from the art. I don't know how that isn't left wing either, maybe it's centrist now, but in any case, I just literally don't care about you as a person.
I generally try to do the same, but there does come points where any enjoyment I can get out of something starts to get outweighed by the artist being a jerk.

Like, I justify my love for Borderlands by being like "it's a game made by a lot of people who clearly love this universe, it's not a pure product of one lying asshole CEO". Same with "LA confidential", yeah, Kevin Spacey's done some horrible stuff, but he's ONE actor in a movie that a lot of people made.

Now, for an actually interesting example....Lovecraft? He's long since dead and his works are open source. I can recognize his amazing literary contribution, acknowledge he was a horrible bigot for most of his life, and then proceed to use his nifty genre to create stories that have all the cosmic horror, but none of the bigotry.

But with cases like JK Rowling, who is the sole creative voice behind the entire series of books? And she's still around? AND she keeps meddling with her artistic creation years after the fact? AND is being a phenomenal jerk? Suddenly there's a lot more of a connection between the art and the artist. And even so I was willing to give her a mountain of benefit of the doubt at first, but after the extreme level of pettiness and so on, I find it really hard to enjoy the books knowing that the creator is a petty, mean-spirited person who keeps saying things that are dangerous to some of my friends as a whole.


Hell, I used to LOVE Razorfist on youtube despite the fact I opposed his politics, and only dropped him once his behaviour just hit a certain critical mass that I could not endure anymore, and overwhelmed any joy I could get out of his content.

We all have a line somewhere.

To tie it down with our base moral concerns of the moment feels sacriligious, it reminds me of those isis people who were destroying assyrian statues that were like 5000 years old to erase pre-Islamic history and enhance their faith.
Aside from the fact that it's not always a "base moral concern of the moment", but rather a continuation of bad behaviour that certain groups have been suffering for a VERY long time...

We don't want to destroy the previous works though, nor are we trying. The overwhelming majority of people who have beef with JK at this point have the opinion of "Just stop being a massive asshole on twitter! Please! I want to still love your books!". There isn't some kind of mass book burning movement around her books, and if there was I'd be opposing it. I just don't think that "She's a jerk, I don't want to support her anymore, I'll find another better series to use to introduce my own kids o the joys of reading" is the same as the ACTUAL destruction of culture.

(Sidebar, this does not apply to stuff like confederate statues, which were literally placed in majority black districts during the civil rights battle purely to intimidate black people and remind them of "who's boss" by celebrating and uplifting the very people who kept them literally enslaved. Those you can move to a museum or some other place that's not the public square if you want to preserve them for historical value, but the point of them wasn't artistic joy or history)

In a liberal and open minded society, the correct ideal to strive for is "I hate you as a person, but I am big enough to acknowledge that despite your horrific acts, your work in this one sector of existance is worth praise". Any movement that can't do this much is not truly left wing or liberal in the real sense of the term, especially if they can't do it due to an ideology blinding them into instantly hating something a "bad person" did just because of who it was that did it, before they even gave it a fair shot to amaze then.
We all have lines in the sand somewhere, where we get turned off by something a creator does.

Might I advise you to speak to people who are impacted? You know, people who feel their lives are at risk because of people's bad behaviour? Like...Ask trans friends if they still feel "sublime" reading Harry Potter, knowing that the author personally has disdain for them and keeps perpetuating bad tropes that may in fact lead to them being hurt?

If someone is being a massive jerk to you, you will inherently feel less "sublime" feelings from their art. Because you know the person who made it hates you for things outside your control. Likewise, if you're friends with people who are impacted by it.

If you want to separate art from the artists in all cases, even the most egregious, sure, go ahead. That's your right.

But you should try to understand why certain people CAN'T.

Personally, I try to let the art speak for itself...But I have limits. There comes a point where any "sublime artistic value" gets corroded and I can't help but keep being reminded that the creator is a total asshole.

Dangit you put it better than I could, much more succinctly. Why you do this to me? XD
 

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So I'm not a leftist because I occasionally see an artist do something shitty and decide not to support them anymore?
Anyone making a claim that your political position is tied to commodity consumption is already someone with a tenuous grasp between the relationship between politics and art tbh, I wouldn't entertain that argument. Instead, I implore a reading of Walter Benjamin, Adorno and Horkheimer:


 
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PsychicTaco115

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People eating each other to gain that precious status and e-power, nothing to see here folks
 

Dreiko

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Speaking of hollow things, those are some very vague feel-good platitudes, but they're all about making the person saying them feel good about themselves, not actually engaging with the real world.

In the real world, art is made by people and all the baggage that comes with them. And everybody draws the line a bit differently. Some people can still read Orson Scott Card. I can't. They're free to continue reading his books, but I just don't want to support him given the horrible policies he supports that would hurt people I care about. I enjoy cosmic horror, but I still cringe when I see all the racist shit Lovecraft put in his work and I believe the genre has outgrown him anyway. Rosemary's Baby is a really good movie. I'm not going to buy it on blu-ray while Polanski's still alive because I don't want to knowingly financially support a rapist. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but we all get to draw our lines in the sand. Yours are no less valid than mine. You're allowed to criticize the things you like and by extension the people who make them.



And let's be real: what sublime experience am I going to get from Chik-fil-a that I couldn't get better at Wendy's?

What I'm saying is that drawing the line in a sense of political comfort is inherently illiberal and anti-meritocratic and backwards in every way. An open minded person ought to draw no lines.


And I dunno where you got the escapism thing from. I mean it could be that too, but I never claimed that it was that, either primarily or exclusively.


Axl can not like his song and has no obligation to rerelease it. He just isn't the moral authority for the people to whom it's their favorite song (there has to be some of them) so it is them I am more concerned about.



While I find it annoying that a lot of mediums are trying to present themselves as woke in cheap token ways that undermine the story...

I find that's honestly more the fault of bad writing and people not knowing how to not be jerks (or just trying to cash in on the woke train in a cheap an easy way) instead of the fault of...You know, trying to be inclusive or trying not to be jerks.

Also, a lot of comic fans (and game fans) seem to have this WEIRD hangup where the second you have a minority involved, they reflexively think "politics ruining my medium!" but don't bat an eye at actual political stuff. I literally don't get why. See the people mad that there's a very muscled lady in The Last of Us 2 and decrying it as "SJWs ruining believability!" when the entire point was obviously to make a female character that looked physically intimidating.

It's also possible to be politically incorrect without being a jerk. Just...You know, don't be a jerk? You can make a story that makes you go "oooh, that's...That hurts, yo" without perpetuating tired bigoted tropes and stuff, or at least examining them in a way that doesn't make it look like you condone it or whatever.

But hey, Writing is Hard, and Art is Subjective, people interpret it differently, so it's always going to leave someone super jazzed and another super upset, that's how art is.
What I'm saying is that over-emphasizing the checklist of included groups and the identity of the chars and creators invites the toleration and progression of bad writing. It does until it gets to a point where it becomes so bad that the political normies are turned off, and then you have the american comicbook industry.

Ok, see, I find this take VERY confusing.

So, you're saying boycotts are intended for "Hey I want this thing to do better, so I'll not support it", purely for artistic reasons for the medium's improvement...And shouldn't be applied to, say, more social stuff that impacts people's lives?

Why not? If a work of art is doing something shitty, people shouldn't say "You know, that's kind of shitty. I don't like it. I'll stop supporting it because of that, unless it stops being shitty"? Which is, in effect, what cancelling is? A whole lot of people saying "I don't like this". That's...Freedom of speech in action, no?
Most people don't care enough to organize a counter protest against boycots. Most of the normal fans of a thing will just move on to something else once it starts folding to the boycotts and becomes unpalatable. It's an abuse and an exploit of the boycott system to use it for political change when the thing was made for a meritocratic concern to be raised about a work.

You don't need to have a recourse to things that you aren't obligated to be into. You just gotta respect the people who are into it and you should just buzz off and go and do the thing you are into. It's a weird entitlement that this thing that isn't for you should change to be for you because it being as it is is somehow transgressive. No, the transgression is a thing changing from its rightful form to suit you when it wasn't originally intended to do that.

I generally try to do the same, but there does come points where any enjoyment I can get out of something starts to get outweighed by the artist being a jerk.

Like, I justify my love for Borderlands by being like "it's a game made by a lot of people who clearly love this universe, it's not a pure product of one lying asshole CEO". Same with "LA confidential", yeah, Kevin Spacey's done some horrible stuff, but he's ONE actor in a movie that a lot of people made.

Now, for an actually interesting example....Lovecraft? He's long since dead and his works are open source. I can recognize his amazing literary contribution, acknowledge he was a horrible bigot for most of his life, and then proceed to use his nifty genre to create stories that have all the cosmic horror, but none of the bigotry.

But with cases like JK Rowling, who is the sole creative voice behind the entire series of books? And she's still around? AND she keeps meddling with her artistic creation years after the fact? AND is being a phenomenal jerk? Suddenly there's a lot more of a connection between the art and the artist. And even so I was willing to give her a mountain of benefit of the doubt at first, but after the extreme level of pettiness and so on, I find it really hard to enjoy the books knowing that the creator is a petty, mean-spirited person who keeps saying things that are dangerous to some of my friends as a whole.


Hell, I used to LOVE Razorfist on youtube despite the fact I opposed his politics, and only dropped him once his behaviour just hit a certain critical mass that I could not endure anymore, and overwhelmed any joy I could get out of his content.

We all have a line somewhere.



Aside from the fact that it's not always a "base moral concern of the moment", but rather a continuation of bad behaviour that certain groups have been suffering for a VERY long time...

We don't want to destroy the previous works though, nor are we trying. The overwhelming majority of people who have beef with JK at this point have the opinion of "Just stop being a massive asshole on twitter! Please! I want to still love your books!". There isn't some kind of mass book burning movement around her books, and if there was I'd be opposing it. I just don't think that "She's a jerk, I don't want to support her anymore, I'll find another better series to use to introduce my own kids o the joys of reading" is the same as the ACTUAL destruction of culture.

(Sidebar, this does not apply to stuff like confederate statues, which were literally placed in majority black districts during the civil rights battle purely to intimidate black people and remind them of "who's boss" by celebrating and uplifting the very people who kept them literally enslaved. Those you can move to a museum or some other place that's not the public square if you want to preserve them for historical value, but the point of them wasn't artistic joy or history)



We all have lines in the sand somewhere, where we get turned off by something a creator does.



Personally, I try to let the art speak for itself...But I have limits. There comes a point where any "sublime artistic value" gets corroded and I can't help but keep being reminded that the creator is a total asshole.
I addressed this above already but basically, if you are a real fan of something, that should matter more to you than some random person's feelings, someone whom you'll likely never meet or talk to. You know what shocked me more about Lovecraft? Not his cat's name, it was that one chapter where he was talking about the whiskey den, and was describing the whiskey drinkers and the drug addicts as though drugs and alcohol were the same thing. It really puts into perspective just how different the world was back then.


When you support the art, you aren't supporting that person's actions outside of making this art that you enjoyed. If you truly enjoyed it, lying to yourself and choosing antipathy over elation will diminish your capacity to feel joy and gain you nothing in return. If you are getting more out of feeling virtuous or spitefully withholding earned compensation for tasks achieved because you can and someone did something you disapprove of, that is indeed a hollowed out state of misery.

And yeah I don't get the thing with the statues but I wasn't born in the US so I don't have that jingoistic bug. The statues are basically honoring traitors who created their own country inside of america when they had no right to. It'd be like making statues of the CHAZ people when they were trying to be independent from the US. Doesn't make any sense.
 
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Baffle

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If it was someone whom you enjoyed the works of and would keep genuinely being a fan of if they didn't do this thing, yes, you're putting politics and mundane concerns over the sublime.
No, I just don't want to fund R Kelly raping kids. I feel this is a reasonable position for me to take.

Were I actually an R Kelly fan, and I'm not, it would be bothersome to me that all those love songs I'd shagged my girlfriend to were actually about R Kelly sexually abusing minors.

Jimmy Savile would've signed that letter.
 

Buyetyen

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What I'm saying is that drawing the line in a sense of political comfort is inherently illiberal and anti-meritocratic and backwards in every way. An open minded person ought to draw no lines.
Which is nonsense. Opening your mind to the point of having no boundaries, standards or lines is not enlightenment, just credulity. Far greater mental and moral clarity comes from having a clear hierarchy of values in your mind and having the discipline to follow through. What you consume indicates only what you consume.

And I dunno where you got the escapism thing from. I mean it could be that too, but I never claimed that it was that, either primarily or exclusively.
I got the impression from the shallowness of your understanding of art, politics and the vast area where they intersect.

Axl can not like his song and has no obligation to rerelease it. He just isn't the moral authority for the people to whom it's their favorite song (there has to be some of them) so it is them I am more concerned about.
Why are you concerned about people defending a shitty, racist, homophobic song? Are racism and homophobia things you think we should defend?

Most people don't care enough to organize a counter protest against boycots. Most of the normal fans of a thing will just move on to something else once it starts folding to the boycotts and becomes unpalatable. It's an abuse and an exploit of the boycott system to use it for political change when the thing was made for a meritocratic concern to be raised about a work.
This is just a call to never boycott anything ever, and once again dips into you trying to enforce on other people what media they must or must not consume.
 

Aegix Drakan

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What I'm saying is that over-emphasizing the checklist of included groups and the identity of the chars and creators invites the toleration and progression of bad writing. It does until it gets to a point where it becomes so bad that the political normies are turned off, and then you have the american comicbook industry.
I'd argue the checklist is the product of bad writing rather than a cause. Because if you need to use a checklist to make your story not be a jerk to people or feel inclusive, then either you or the person giving you your orders is bad at writing in an inclusive, non-jerk way.

Or in typical corporate style they want everything they make to be everything for everyone, which ends up diluting the art. Not everything needs to be inclusive in every way, you know, and most people will agree to that statement. Dark Souls isn't inclusive for people who aren't insanely determined, and that's fine, after all.

Most people don't care enough to organize a counter protest against boycots. Most of the normal fans of a thing will just move on to something else once it starts folding to the boycotts and becomes unpalatable. It's an abuse and an exploit of the boycott system to use it for political change when the thing was made for a meritocratic concern to be raised about a work.
Yeah I'm just gonna quote Buyetyen here:
This is just a call to never boycott anything ever, and once again dips into you trying to enforce on other people what media they must or must not consume.
Not to mention, boycotts are FREQUENTLY used for political change. It's the driving reason why Apartheid in South Africa was ended.

You don't need to have a recourse to things that you aren't obligated to be into. You just gotta respect the people who are into it and you should just buzz off and go and do the thing you are into. It's a weird entitlement that this thing that isn't for you should change to be for you because it being as it is is somehow transgressive. No, the transgression is a thing changing from its rightful form to suit you when it wasn't originally intended to do that.
And what if it IS something you're into?

Do you just silently tolerate that it keeps repeatedly doing things to specifically irritate you that honestly could be easily avoided, and if fixed would probably make the thing BETTER? Or do you stand up and say "Hey, you know, this is kind of a dumb thing you keep doing that keeps alienating people like, maybe you can NOT do that thing?"

Do you just silently accept that the author of the thing you ADORE that really helped you get through your rough childhood is now publically wishing you didn't exist and thinks you're a freak because of something you have no control over and is out there saying things that are outright lies, fabrication or harmful to people like you? Or do you speak up that they're being a jerk, talk about it with other people, and maybe a bunch of you decide not to keep supporting them or buying their stuff?

Let's say there's a manga (or whatever else YOU personally really enjoy). It really speaks to you, inspires you, all that jazz. Now, if the author comes out and explicitly says that they think people like you are freaks and should go die alone somewhere and they're disgusted anyone in your particular demographic likes their work because it's not for you.... You're telling me that won't affect your love of the work AT ALL and you'll still get tons of joy out of it despite the fact the person who made it hates your guts? Because that takes a huge amount of compartmentalization.

Edit: And how do you do it when the person's awfulness re-contextualizes some of the stuff IN the work and makes you go "oohhhhh, this isn't a love song, this is a song about how much the person likes to do horrible things to underage girls" or something else like that?

Not to mention that this doesn't work in practice quite often in the reverse. The amount of vitriol I saw lobbed at Read Only Memories (a cute little Pixel Cyberpunk Point and click adventure game with LGBT themes that was actually pretty damn good) was STAGGERING. Clearly, this game was not meant for people who are anti LGBT, and yet there was a considerable amount of people telling the creators that by making their own game, they were ruining games, among other things.

When you support the art, you aren't supporting that person's actions outside of making this art that you enjoyed. If you truly enjoyed it, lying to yourself and choosing antipathy over elation will diminish your capacity to feel joy and gain you nothing in return. If you are getting more out of feeling virtuous or spitefully withholding earned compensation for tasks achieved because you can and someone did something you disapprove of, that is indeed a hollowed out state of misery.
On the flip side...If you don't acknowledge the shittyness of the person (which may feel personal because it harms you or people you care about), to keep feeling elated by the art...You're also kind of lying to yourself.

Like I said before, we all have different lines before your dislike of the behaviour of the person ends up eclipsing the joy you feel for the art. In your case, that line seems to be limitless. For others...Not so much.

Like, I love Harry Potter, it's an amazing book series, I'm not lying to myself about how much I like it (hence why I'm still totally following and enjoying the fan community that keeps coming up with fun Fanon).

BUT, I'd also be lying to myself if I didn't feel disgusted and creeped out by JK rowling's continual swan dive into transphobia. If I try to keep loving the books as much as I used to, and deliberately ignore the fact that the person who wrote all those words and is more or less pouring their soul into mine through their art disgusts me with her behaviour and bigotry...Isn't that ALSO lying to myself?
 
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Dreiko

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I'd argue the checklist is the product of bad writing rather than a cause. Because if you need to use a checklist to make your story not be a jerk to people or feel inclusive, then either you or the person giving you your orders is bad at writing in an inclusive, non-jerk way.

Or in typical corporate style they want everything they make to be everything for everyone, which ends up diluting the art. Not everything needs to be inclusive in every way, you know, and most people will agree to that statement. Dark Souls isn't inclusive for people who aren't insanely determined, and that's fine, after all.
The checklist can be a product of bad writing, but checklists will always lead to it too, which is the bigger issue. When you stop caring for the merit of a story as your first priority and focus on its political correctness parameters to appeal to the cancelers who aren't really fans of anything other than of themselves having power, you're gonna go down the wrong path.

And what if it IS something you're into?

Do you just silently tolerate that it keeps repeatedly doing things to specifically irritate you that honestly could be easily avoided, and if fixed would probably make the thing BETTER? Or do you stand up and say "Hey, you know, this is kind of a dumb thing you keep doing that keeps alienating people like, maybe you can NOT do that thing?"

Do you just silently accept that the author of the thing you ADORE that really helped you get through your rough childhood is now publically wishing you didn't exist and thinks you're a freak because of something you have no control over and is out there saying things that are outright lies, fabrication or harmful to people like you? Or do you speak up that they're being a jerk, talk about it with other people, and maybe a bunch of you decide not to keep supporting them or buying their stuff?

Let's say there's a manga (or whatever else YOU personally really enjoy). It really speaks to you, inspires you, all that jazz. Now, if the author comes out and explicitly says that they think people like you are freaks and should go die alone somewhere and they're disgusted anyone in your particular demographic likes their work because it's not for you.... You're telling me that won't affect your love of the work AT ALL and you'll still get tons of joy out of it despite the fact the person who made it hates your guts? Because that takes a huge amount of compartmentalization.

Edit: And how do you do it when the person's awfulness re-contextualizes some of the stuff IN the work and makes you go "oohhhhh, this isn't a love song, this is a song about how much the person likes to do horrible things to underage girls" or something else like that?

Not to mention that this doesn't work in practice quite often in the reverse. The amount of vitriol I saw lobbed at Read Only Memories (a cute little Pixel Cyberpunk Point and click adventure game with LGBT themes that was actually pretty damn good) was STAGGERING. Clearly, this game was not meant for people who are anti LGBT, and yet there was a considerable amount of people telling the creators that by making their own game, they were ruining games, among other things.
I have a very good example of what you're describing that illustrates my point. Hayao Miyazaki, the head of Ghibli and the creator of some of the most beloved anime movies of all time, has said a lot of disparaging comments about younger forms of anime fandom. While those comments were a little bit before my time, I do think you could apply them to more recent years as well, and hence I also did feel like he was just in a different mindset and didn't understand a lot of the things that the younger waves of fandom are getting out of it.

Now, did that in my eyes dumb and kinda ignorant opinion of an old man too set in his ways somehow affect my enjoyment of Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind or of Mononoke Hime? Not one bit. I literally don't care what the guy thinks, I only care about what he draws and animates. I am not into these films for him, I just happen to love them and he happens to have made them. It's all about the films, they're an entity onto themselves, they're bigger than one man, they get to define themselves.

I find it neurotic to even bring up thoughts of such an irrelevant and negative incident in the context of trying to enjoy something, as well. It's such a joyless way to be.


On the flip side...If you don't acknowledge the shittyness of the person (which may feel personal because it harms you or people you care about), to keep feeling elated by the art...You're also kind of lying to yourself.

Like I said before, we all have different lines before your dislike of the behaviour of the person ends up eclipsing the joy you feel for the art. In your case, that line seems to be limitless. For others...Not so much.

Like, I love Harry Potter, it's an amazing book series, I'm not lying to myself about how much I like it (hence why I'm still totally following and enjoying the fan community that keeps coming up with fun Fanon).

BUT, I'd also be lying to myself if I didn't feel disgusted and creeped out by JK rowling's continual swan dive into transphobia. If I try to keep loving the books as much as I used to, and deliberately ignore the fact that the person who wrote all those words and is more or less pouring their soul into mine through their art disgusts me with her behaviour and bigotry...Isn't that ALSO lying to myself?

No, I didn't say not acknowledge it, just don't judge the art based on it.

I don't think the line being limitless is any different than there being no line. I think you just wanna define it as a limitless line to not acknowledge that there is a way of being without a line which just lets everything be game and puts the onus on the audience to be mature about handling things and not let their biases rob them of potentially enriching experiences.


People are not all of their facets at the same time. Someone may be being a bigot and a saint and a loving mother and a thief. They aren't all of those things at the same time, not often anyhow. The person writing the book is likely a very different person from the person who wrote those tweets you dislike if the book was able to move you so. You can love one aspect of a person and hate another. People are nuanced and complicated like that. It's literally autistic to demand complete benevolence out of someone before you can enjoy something they produced without feeling guilty, and you really have no way of knowing people's dark secrets either which can cause you to doubt everyone and everything. Not a healthy outlook at all. Going back to statues a bit, there were people trying to take down statues of Ghandi cause he was apparently racist too. There has to be some bounds of reasons here lol. (btw, Carl Marx was also racist as hell and said things like that black folks were saved by being slaves and being modernized through the process of enslavement, but they haven't tried to take his statues down, it gets your noggin joggin)
 

Buyetyen

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No, I didn't say not acknowledge it, just don't judge the art based on it.

I don't think the line being limitless is any different than there being no line. I think you just wanna define it as a limitless line to not acknowledge that there is a way of being without a line which just lets everything be game and puts the onus on the audience to be mature about handling things and not let their biases rob them of potentially enriching experiences.
Which is an arbitrary distinction. You are trying to impose a single line on everybody else, a line which is seemingly impossible to cross. Once again, you are trying to decide for other people what speech they are and are not free to. Your insistence on a one-size-fits-all solution protects no speech or ideas but your own.
 

Dreiko

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Which is an arbitrary distinction. You are trying to impose a single line on everybody else, a line which is seemingly impossible to cross. Once again, you are trying to decide for other people what speech they are and are not free to. Your insistence on a one-size-fits-all solution protects no speech or ideas but your own.
I am not trying to decide what other people can't say. What I'm saying is that nobody gets to decide that, me included. That everyone is responsible for putting their biases away and being objective when experiencing something.

Now, if you want to try to control what others are free to say, that would I guess qualify as me telling you what you can and can't say, but that'd be a pretty hypocritical place to come from if it is the case.


In simpler terms, it is ones' deficiency, a fault in them, that which prevents them from earnestly enjoying something because they dislike who created it. It's not something to coddle or accept, it's something to work past.
 
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Buyetyen

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I am not trying to decide what other people can't say. What I'm saying is that nobody gets to decide that, me included. That everyone is responsible for putting their biases away and being objective when experiencing something.
Exactly, you're telling people what they can and cannot say or think.

In simpler terms, it is ones' deficiency, a fault in them, that which prevents them from earnestly enjoying something because they dislike who created it. It's not something to coddle or accept, it's something to work past.
So what do you plan to do exactly? Shame me for not re-reading Ender's Game? Force me to watch Rosemary's Baby? Again, you're asserting that the only way to have free speech is to deny it to other people. That if their tastes and values do not align correctly with your predetermined notion of "objective" then they are in the wrong and must be prevented from voicing their criticisms.
 
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tstorm823

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Shame me for not re-reading Ender's Game?
I think I have to re-read at least the end of that. It's my example of a tiny detail completely ruining something for me, but I don't remember the exact quote. I'm not worried about spoiling it for anyone, but to be nice and vague and not spoilery, Ender's Game is written almost entirely with the limited knowledge of a first person perspective, and that limited perspective is used well to keep you in the characters' experiences up until just before the climax, when a single sentence of omnipotent narrator exposition bullcrap dropped in just in time to rip me out of it. I was legitimately mad the perspective was broken, and I really want to find that sentence, but google doesn't do it for me.
 

Dreiko

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Exactly, you're telling people what they can and cannot say or think.



So what do you plan to do exactly? Shame me for not re-reading Ender's Game? Force me to watch Rosemary's Baby? Again, you're asserting that the only way to have free speech is to deny it to other people. That if their tastes and values do not align correctly with your predetermined notion of "objective" then they are in the wrong and must be prevented from voicing their criticisms.
It's not my notion of objective, it's just the general notion of objective humanity has reached which I ascribe to. Basic fairness. Giving things their just deserts. Wholesome goodness and all that junk.

Just to be clear, having more things you enjoy in this life is better than having fewer ones. It is a fortunate state of being that which finds you enjoying something you once had trouble enjoying due to certain things holding you back or distracting you. I don't think I'm being crazy here.

Advice in regards to striving to best sculpt yourself to be able to enjoy life is not something that can be described as shaming. Helping? Coaxing? Something like that, perhaps.