Life sentence alternatives in the UK?

[TheDean]

no one in the army should have their head shaved. that is unfair. everyone should have the right to have an unshaved head if they want.

Actually, they should, for the following practical reasons: Buzz cut short hair is easy to look after, It doesn't get lice, it doesn't obscure your field of view, get caught in machinery, get caked in sweat, catch fire and you can't grab someone by their hair if it's too short to grip.
Think about it.

Give back? GIVE BACK? My country sucks. I'm never giving anything back EVER!

You will give something back to the country whether you like it or not. Eventually you'll have to earn money and pay your taxes, the alternatives are go to prison or emigrate, actually you're only option is go to prison because wherever you go you will have to pay some kind of tax.
Those taxes may go some way to paying back the country that provided: the Hospital you were probably born in, your free education, the vast network of roads and communications you use to travel and stay in contact with your friends, the water you drink, the police force and gaurantees the money in your bank account. Which is something even the banks can't seem to manage these days. Do you honestly think Human beings could be trusted to organise all those things as indivuals?
There is nothing wrong with Patriotism, despite the press' best efforts we have a pretty nice country to live in. the problem is that Patriotism so often gets hijacked by extreme right or left wing psychopaths who think the word means they have exclusive rights to everything good about the place.

Regards the OP. I think that is a spectacularly bad idea. Conscripts rarely make good soldiers and giving your men a choice between their guns or yours won't do much for morale. It'll also add a branch of the British Army, traditionally modelled as one of the best trained armies in the world, that is comprised entirely of scum. Personally I wouldn't want people like that serving, the idea that they might be the people watching my friend's and relative's back is slightly sickening.

Personally I think forced labour should make a return. Their are lots of jobs round here (like cleaners, picking crops, cattle farming etc) that are done by illegal migrant workers, they have to endure slave trade conditions and unscrupulous, often brutal gang masters.
Giving these jobs to prisoners would be a triple whammy. It gives the prisoners something constructive to do, removes the market for illegal foreign labour and undermines the gang master's business. It might also help justify the amount it costs to imprison somebody.

As for the first bit: i don't care. I want long hair.
As for the rest: i will pay taxes and i will give back; for the good of the peopel. But i'm not doing it for our govt. And patriotism is bad. seriously. Haven't you ever heard that pride is the first step to racism? If we are proud of our country we begin to see others as inferior. We should only Ever be proud of the thigns we have worked to acheive. IT's liek the flag, i hate flags. It's considered bad to disrespect a country's flag. WHY? It's a piece of cloth. that's it.
I will never do anything for the govt because they are trying to control us.

 

[TheDean]

Give back? GIVE BACK? My country sucks. I'm never giving anything back EVER! We shouldn't even have countries. It encourages divisions, and i think the individual is far more important than your country.
Those chavs are only in the army because they can't get another job. And because they're thick and think they just get to kill pakis. I knew a chav who said "while you're working in school i'll be killing pakis in the army". MORON!
As for the hair: it is a symbol of comformism and stupidity. If i was in the army i would NEVER get my hair cut, no matter what they tell me. That is BS. NOTHING should be mandatory. The army sucks.

How would the world function without countries? Seriously? What would be an alternative to not having countries? Countries are necessary to govern people and attempt to distribute resources effectively, I'm sorry but I don't see how Humanity would continue for long without some form of country. Or at least something resembling them.

Also you say if you were in the army you wouldn't get your hair cut. How would you stop them? Complain? Straight out Refuse? Leave? Because for any of those you need to be stronger than the 2 MPs stood next to you! Besides the shaved head means all the recruits start out equal and the same, kind of like the idea of being Born Again. If you keep your hair it's part of who you are and means that you're more likely to rebel against the Drill Sergeant or something.

Anyway /rant over!

Less serious crimes should not come with imprisonment but something else, and for very serious crimes bring back the Death Penalty. There are some people who just shouldn't be here. Then again. I have anger issues. Meh.

see, that's exactly the problem. People in the army should be allowed to keep their identities. I shouldn't have to follow orders of a sergeant. the army isn't democratic enough. Also, i'd let them kill me before cut my hair. But they can't do that-- i guess if i just walk away i can be arrested maybe? that is PATHETIC.

As for countries, we don't need them. They encourage divisions, they encourage patriotism and pride, and that's the first step to racism. We do not need countries, we do not need to be governed at all.

Pussy its just hair ffs.
besides its good in hand to hand combat because your enemy dosent have anything to grab...

i like my hair. I don't want top cut it for my country. And the problem is that is symbolises that everyone is the same. It removes the individual. The individual is frickin' important damnit.

 

[Manbro]

What a fantastic idea... take a murderer, give him an AK47, sidearm, combat knife and access to explosives.... I wonder what will happen?
Why can't we just go back to the traditional methods- send them to australia

Hey! We're full! You'll have to take your criminals somewhere else I'm afraid!

 

[Manbro]

I don't think that putting guns in the hands of a violent offender is a good idea, especially when risking the lives of the men and women who voluntarily enrolled to serve their country. And if they do make through their sentence then the army has effectively turned them into a more effective criminal. However, prison overflow is serious in a lot of places. I think capital punishments for especially serious crimes isn't a bad idea. More so, with the state of some prisons being little more than time-out for a hardened criminal.

 

[meece]

Compulsory work in State owned factories.

Who needs robotics when you have a legion of criminals to do things free for you?

 

[Dahemo]

A lot of you are talking rubbish. It's actually worrying to hear some of the opinions you're holding at the moment:

1. Hair in the military: Has very little to do with conformity in the sense you seem to believe. Much like in prison, you need to be shaved and cleaned to prevent lice or any other medical issues entering the camp (where large groups of people live in tight conditions and where illness can spread like wildfire). There is also a sense of brotherhood with your fellow soldiers, you have all experienced the same. "Democracy in the army" as you mentioned, is a ridiculous concept, how could anything possibly be acheived? "No sir, we don't want to clear out that house with insurgents, me and the boys just decided, no sir, you can't make us". The point of all this is that we are abusing the privelidge of armed forces, they willingly risk their lives on the condition that they are not put in harms way without good reason, like they are now.

2. The Military and Patriotism: There is an intrinsic link in the minds of society between patriots and soldiers. But only a small percentage "do it for the motherland". Many see it as a very viable career path, some are personally inclined to military service and many have a family tradition. You don't have to be patriotic to serve.

3. High-Tech Robo Prison: A great idea in theory, but unfortunately this would be even worse than current models. In essence, by depriving them of human contact, you will at worst drive the prisoners slowly insane and at best they will never readjust to human contact should they not be on a life sentence.

4. Anarchist Communism: Another chunk of solid gold. I assume you mean anarchy, because Communism is largely irrelevant, there would be no government, mass rioting, you would probably be dead or in hiding, so how exactly you would "do everything you can to help your country" would be a sight to see. Pour petrol on the bonfire that is your dying nation? Grow up and learn something about the world. You say every decision should be voted on by the citizens. The Swiss do this, and they get hefty fines if they don't vote and guess what? They are bored stiff of voting on every little thing. Democracy is not even close to perfect but it keeps you in a house with food and water and access to the internet (also a few other things).

Rant over, but seriously...

 

[fix-the-spade]

no one in the army should have their head shaved.

Actually, they should, for the following practical reasons:

As for the first bit: i don't care. I want long hair.
As for the rest: i will pay taxes and i will give back; for the good of the peopel. But i'm not doing it for our govt. And patriotism is bad. seriously. Haven't you ever heard that pride is the first step to racism? If we are proud of our country we begin to see others as inferior. We should only Ever be proud of the thigns we have worked to acheive. IT's liek the flag, i hate flags. It's considered bad to disrespect a country's flag. WHY? It's a piece of cloth. that's it.
I will never do anything for the govt because they are trying to control us.

That's fine, just don't join the army, you'll be in for a nasty shock.

Patriotism is not bad, neither is pride. The problem is taking either to extremes, you take them to the extreme of denouncing them totally.

As for the flag, you seem to like symbolism so I'll explain it like this. The flag is a symbol of the United Kingdom. To me everything that is good about it. It's something that reminds me of home. In other countries it means I've found the embassy or consulate, somewhere safe where the people will speak my language and help me if I need it, it's also the thing that was on top of my Grand father's coffin. To sailors it means the other ship they can see is friendly, to soldiers it symbolises their homeland and their collective identity. To sportsmen it's all the thousands of people who support them.
I realise this may seem very silly to you and yes, it is just a bit of coloured cloth. But to many people it means a great deal, disrespecting it means disrespecting the things they hold dear.
Of course the Government is trying to control you, they're the Government, they govern. Be glad ours has a degree of balance to it and lets you say things like that without putting you up against a wall, even if they can be a bunch of corrupt, incompetent dicks.


Yes, we are better than a great many other countries. We have freedom of speech, freedom of worship, free healthcare, free education, free emergency services and have managed to survive two world wars, a collapsing empire and various economic crises without decending into civil war or collective extremism.

 

[fix-the-spade]

What a fantastic idea... take a murderer, give him an AK47, sidearm, combat knife and access to explosives.... I wonder what will happen?
Why can't we just go back to the traditional methods- send them to australia

Hey! We're full! You'll have to take your criminals somewhere else I'm afraid!

You ain't full, what about that enormous space you have out back, what do you people call it again?

 

[Elurindel]

no one in the army should have their head shaved.

Actually, they should, for the following practical reasons:

As for the first bit: i don't care. I want long hair.
As for the rest: i will pay taxes and i will give back; for the good of the peopel. But i'm not doing it for our govt. And patriotism is bad. seriously. Haven't you ever heard that pride is the first step to racism? If we are proud of our country we begin to see others as inferior. We should only Ever be proud of the thigns we have worked to acheive. IT's liek the flag, i hate flags. It's considered bad to disrespect a country's flag. WHY? It's a piece of cloth. that's it.
I will never do anything for the govt because they are trying to control us.

That's fine, just don't join the army, you'll be in for a nasty shock.

Patriotism is not bad, neither is pride. The problem is taking either to extremes, you take them to the extreme of denouncing them totally.

As for the flag, you seem to like symbolism so I'll explain it like this. The flag is a symbol of the United Kingdom. To me everything that is good about it. It's something that reminds me of home. In other countries it means I've found the embassy or consulate, somewhere safe where the people will speak my language and help me if I need it, it's also the thing that was on top of my Grand father's coffin. To sailors it means the other ship they can see is friendly, to soldiers it symbolises their homeland and their collective identity. To sportsmen it's all the thousands of people who support them.
I realise this may seem very silly to you and yes, it is just a bit of coloured cloth. But to many people it means a great deal, disrespecting it means disrespecting the things they hold dear.
Of course the Government is trying to control you, they're the Government, they govern. Be glad ours has a degree of balance to it and lets you say things like that without putting you up against a wall, even if they can be a bunch of corrupt, incompetent dicks.


Yes, we are better than a great many other countries. We have freedom of speech, freedom of worship, free healthcare, free education, free emergency services and have managed to survive two world wars, a collapsing empire and various economic crises without decending into civil war or collective extremism.

Seconded. I wonder if the guy realises just how good things are in England an America. You thinkwe have it bad? Get your ass to Burma. One of the worst military dictatorships in history. Half its capital is spent on its military, yet its only enemy is its own people. People who won't ally themselves to its brutal militaristic government have their villages burned, men slaughtered, women gangraped and children murdered in front of their parent's eyes.
You think we have it bad? Go somewhere where the phrase on the common man's lips is "live for nothing, die for something". Until then, I think our country looks pretty sweet by comparison, no?

Also, I know it looks like I've been avoiding other points, but I'll try and address some of them as I remember them.

Enforced labour instead? Sounds good. Just as long as it is labour that they can't easily get out of, like picking up litter or scrubbing away grafitti.
Don't want conscripts working with proper army? Send the conscripts in first. Harsh, I know, but if these people are murderers and such, they deserve no sympathy.

 

[TheDean]

no one in the army should have their head shaved.

Actually, they should, for the following practical reasons:

As for the first bit: i don't care. I want long hair.
As for the rest: i will pay taxes and i will give back; for the good of the peopel. But i'm not doing it for our govt. And patriotism is bad. seriously. Haven't you ever heard that pride is the first step to racism? If we are proud of our country we begin to see others as inferior. We should only Ever be proud of the thigns we have worked to acheive. IT's liek the flag, i hate flags. It's considered bad to disrespect a country's flag. WHY? It's a piece of cloth. that's it.
I will never do anything for the govt because they are trying to control us.

That's fine, just don't join the army, you'll be in for a nasty shock.

Patriotism is not bad, neither is pride. The problem is taking either to extremes, you take them to the extreme of denouncing them totally.

As for the flag, you seem to like symbolism so I'll explain it like this. The flag is a symbol of the United Kingdom. To me everything that is good about it. It's something that reminds me of home. In other countries it means I've found the embassy or consulate, somewhere safe where the people will speak my language and help me if I need it, it's also the thing that was on top of my Grand father's coffin. To sailors it means the other ship they can see is friendly, to soldiers it symbolises their homeland and their collective identity. To sportsmen it's all the thousands of people who support them.
I realise this may seem very silly to you and yes, it is just a bit of coloured cloth. But to many people it means a great deal, disrespecting it means disrespecting the things they hold dear.
Of course the Government is trying to control you, they're the Government, they govern. Be glad ours has a degree of balance to it and lets you say things like that without putting you up against a wall, even if they can be a bunch of corrupt, incompetent dicks.


Yes, we are better than a great many other countries. We have freedom of speech, freedom of worship, free healthcare, free education, free emergency services and have managed to survive two world wars, a collapsing empire and various economic crises without decending into civil war or collective extremism.

oh i won't join the army.

i apreciate what you are saying. But the problem si the govt are controlling us. You said that's because they are there top govern us. Be thankful thry let us to things like free speech etc. WAIT! That's the problem! No one should be in a position to take rights away. We shouldn't HAVE to be thankful we have a good govt- there shouldn't be anyone in control.

i understand your symbolism, and i see how it means alot to people, but i take things for what they are. A flag emans nothing to me because it is clth. nothing more.
Maybe i'm just jaded because i live in Northern Ireland and we have had issues with flags and such here.

 

[Manbro]

What a fantastic idea... take a murderer, give him an AK47, sidearm, combat knife and access to explosives.... I wonder what will happen?
Why can't we just go back to the traditional methods- send them to australia

Hey! We're full! You'll have to take your criminals somewhere else I'm afraid!

You ain't full, what about that enormous space you have out back, what do you people call it again?

SHHHHHHHH! We're not really full we just don't want anymore criminals! It's called the outback by the way. And what do you mean by 'you people'?!!

 

[falcontwin]

Just cull them. If someone is of no use to society just kill them and move on.

You can't argue that keeping a career criminal alive at a cost of 50,000 a year is better than just killing them and putting that money towards helping productive members of society who can't afford health care.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

50,000 a year? Where did you get that absurd statistic? Maybe in Rands, but it's more likely to be somewhere around £10,000. Mind you, executing criminals does lead them to fight to the death rather than, say, coming quietly.

And everyone in britain can afford health care. We have, what I reckon, to be one of the most awesome societies on earth.

1. Low unemployment- seriously low.
2. A stable currency.
3. Free Healthcare, to the benifit of all.
4. Relatively low crime-despite what the media tries to tell you, our police are some of thebest in the world, our working classes amongst the most quiet and our crime rate low. And we don't have every policeman carrying an assault rifle, unlike certain nations.
5. We have the Queen. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!!!
6. Finest army in the world.
7. World's 4th most powerful economy.
8. A spectacular history.



And for some other stuff-

Pride does not lead to racism. And if it does, then it's a price worth paying!


The government is to the advantage of us all because, quite frankly, our lives are complex enough without having to go through the hassle of fighting off armed robbers every three hours, organising our own road-building and just surviving. Without government, economy collapses. Economy collapses, a lot of people starve.

 

[Serious_Stalin]

I think more prisons would be good, but on top of that I think that cells should be half the size and there should be less leisure areas and more cells. And less food! Screw em!

 

[Haseri]

The problem is there isn't any real answer. Any solution one comes up with, people will then find the holes in said theory and make them wider. That has happened here with the OP's idea for criminal conscipts.

What punishment for criminals should provide is rehabilitation and/or protecting the public. Say you had a kleptomaniac. What you want to do is stop him/her from stealing things long term, plus you also want the same short term. Jail deals with the short term, locking them up for a certain amount of time, away from the public. The Justice system hopes that this lets them think about their life, and they change accordingly. However, it sometimes doesn't work, probably due to the fact there was no rehabilitation in the prison.

But to answer the OP's question: Floating prisions. This gets rid of the NIMBY problem, unless you house is in the sea, and it gives the prisoners a chance to learn real skills, like swabbing the deck, and hoisting the mainsails.

And now, people will poke holes in that theory...

 

[Volucer]

I do Criminology at Uni and we discuss this sort of thing alot, while it's generally agreed that the CJS is crap it's hard to find something to do about it. The problem is that we can't justify taking the life of an individual, no matter how heinous their crime. The whole of the CJS is geared towards rehabilitation not retribution. Problems then arise from what to do with criminals, the reason the prisons are overcrowded is because judges don't know what to do with persistant offenders. If someone commits a crime and only gets a community service it can be seen as a soft option, but is meant to force the individual to pay something back to the community it's damaged, but if they then keep offending they are often sent to prison as it's a more serious punishment. Then you've got murderers and rapists in the same prisons which can lead to a sort of corruption, making the individual more likely to commit more serious crimes again, which eventually leads to longer prison sentences and eventually the overcrowding situation we have at the minute.

Finding some form of punishment fitting is tough. I say we just wall off Wales and shove all the criminals in there to fend for themselves. (1 - taking the welsh people out first and 2 - no offence to welsh people but their country is a good size and not too far away) or the artic, same principle but they'll likely die.