Logic (or lack of) in Mass Effect 3's endings

[Imperius]

"It had to be me, someone else could have gotten it wrong. Still, would have liked to collect seashells with you."- Shepard to Tali, his last words.

 

[Lithan]

Dunno why you're having problem with the Paragon issue, I too collected everything and had maxed out rep and had no issue selecting the Paragon path with the Illusive Man.

I'm not sure either.

I'm also noticing that Rene/Para dialogue options are purely based on your overall rep, NOT on rena or para. As In I was way passed max paragon and less than 1 bubble of renegade, and anytime the paragon choice was available to me, the renegade was as well. I assume that's normal though.

But yeah, maybe it was a display issue on pc? Like I said, I was maxx paragon before the geth missions (first time through Tali an heroed because I only had 4 bubbles, not 5, so I loaded a really old save and did everything paragon), then I chose paragon for everything except when I killed the geth controlling reaper (was like the fourth time I'd had that convo, I didn't care to ask him to explain shit to me again, so I flipped him off and shot him in the face, feelsgoodman).

 

[FFHAuthor]

Dunno why you're having problem with the Paragon issue, I too collected everything and had maxed out rep and had no issue selecting the Paragon path with the Illusive Man.

There was a bit of a breakdown through the game of the Paragon/Renegade system, a lot of choices that seemed to be clear-cut one way or the other were flipped, and the Quick time Events did seem a little strange at times, like killing Kai Leng was a Renegade QTE, then simply waiting and automatically doing the exact same motion, words and result was not worth renegade.

It was getting screwier the further in you went.

 

[M-E-D The Poet]

I don't really need to say that the endings suck, we all know that. But I'm really confused ... here's why:

All endings
1) So the Mass Relays are destroyed in every outcome. Doesn't this mean the united galactic flotillas I gathered are stranded on Earth? If so, the Quarians, Volus and Turians are screwed because there is no dextro-amino (or whatever it was) food for them.
2) How does Shepard survive in space without any air? I didn't see a dome or ... anything that would indicate there was air during your conversation with the Deus Ex Child
3) So ... the synthetics are destroying organics in order to prevent synthetics from destroying organics ... To quote GLaDOS "Don't think about it, don't think about it ..."
4) Why can't I use Joker/EDI or Geth/Quarians as an argument agains the God Child's logic?
5) The God Child said that someone built the Reapers ... when? And for what purpose?
6) Didn't Arrival teach us that destroying a Mass Relay will result in the destruction of an entire solar system? Is that sill valid here? (Why not?)
7) What happened to my squadmates in the final mission? Did they really just abandon one of their closest friends? And why was Joker fleeing from Earth?

Destroy
1) So I destroy every piece of machinery in the galaxy, sending every known race back at least 1000 years (or so). But what about the Quarians and the Volus? They can't live without their suits. So if I choose this option, I'm committing double genocide ... (to my wife no less)
2) The Geth also die ... but didn't Tali said that the Geth blur the line between synthetic and organics?

Control
1) So ... WHY is the cycle inevitable again? Quarians and Geth? Joker and EDI? ... nothing?

Synthesis
1) How does this actually work?
2) If everything is part synthetic now, and everything is part syntetic, do those units have souls?
3) How do different races react to this?
4) How do the quarians survive?
5) How does this affect the culture and life of everyone? Is there piece now? Are there wars? Does this affect emotions? Love, Hate, Fear, Friendship?
6) Does this affect intellect? Does it make everyone smarter?

well that's okay, the batarians , terminus mercenaries, the salarians, the spec ops from every race and the volus have magically dissapeared in my playthrough already, I mean I never even got to see one eclipse mech on earth, so I'm still wondering wtf happened right there.

 

[zinho73]

It wasn't that complicated. The cycle & the reapers were presumably created by the same people who created the mass relays, the citadel & the child AI. The aim was to ensure synthetics would never wipe out all organic life in the universe permanently by destroying advanced civilizations before this could come to pass, storing them in reaper form (which is why nearly all reapers being squid like makes little sense). Essentially it was all based on the assumption that as long as organics and synthetics are separate they cannot coexist & coming to this conclusion the creators put this plan into place.

The creators did not however create the crucible, which introduced a variety of different solutions which are acted out by Shepard.

And the Citadel just happen to have three magical machines with three other magical solutions in the case that someone invented the crucible?

To interact with the citadel in this level, the crucible had to be created by the same people who created the reapers.

Actually, the concept of the crucible is also a bit weird - a weapon that you don't know what it does until you pull the trigger. It would have worked better if it were a key and the citadel was the weapon, but the game utilizes the concept backwards.

 

[zinho73]

A civilization created the child AI (citadel) the Reaper and the Mass Relay's.

Now, why the child. It's probably the Citadel reading Shepard's emotions/mind/whatever and taking a form that he will understand. Shepard was beaten up and he lost all hope. He was thinking how he couldn't save anyone. He though about the child.

So the Citadel AI took the from of the child.

Why didn't it help the Reaper in the first part? The Child AI probably doesn't much control over the Citadel. If it had, it would have simply killed Shepard before he even close to the control panel. It was probably added by the creator to explain to the race why the cycle has to end.

Joker/EDI and Quarian/Geth are just few example in a long lasting war with each other. The Geth are synthetics. They will think logically. If they ever need to have war with the organics, they will. But the organics are illogical. They will wage wars for unimportant things. Hell, wars were waged because just 1 woman. They are currently in an alliance (and only if you played your cards right) because both races are in danger. The Geth know that the Reaper will try to make them their slaves and destroy them at the end of the cycle. They have every reason to fight the Reaper. It's just that they have a commune enemy that they are in peace. Do you really think that the peace would last long?
I do think that the Geth wouldn't start a war, but I do think that the other, organic, races would either try to take over their territory, them or just start a war. The Geth will defend them self.

Also, about the Arrival.
In that DLC, you destroy a Relay with physical damage. That disables the magnets on the 'mass field' (dunno what the blue mass is called) which expands with extreme speed and caused insane damage. The blue mass is something like plasma. Those magnet keep it in one place and concentrate the energy in the mass relay.
But at the end of the game, the Citadel sends one orange beam to the Mass Relay. I think that the beam does 2 things.
First it sends a command to send the same beam to the next relay. This causes the chain reaction.
The other action is that it changes the blue field into an orange. This also probably changes it's characteristics.
Now when the self destruction command starts, the blue field is released. Unlike the blue one, this one doesn't deal huge physical damage, but more of an EMP style damage.

That's why the solar systems aren't destroyed.


Just my opinion about the whole stuff.

EDIT: Also, there is a HUGE difference between the Geth killing organics and the Reaper doing the same.
The Reaper will NEVER extinct all organics life. The will harvest advanced organic life when other, less organic life have a change of evolving further.
On the other hand, we don't know what the Geth or other synthetics could do in a war. They could kill ALL organic life forms. Not just advanced but all. The Creator though that organics and synthetics can't co-exist. So they separated them. The allow organics to live until the point where they could do something seriously retarded and then "restart" the universe.

EDIT2:
Stop calling it space magic. Even the best scientists of the universe don't fully understand how the Mass Relays work. They don't know anything about the Keeper, the Citadel and about many other things. The reaper tech. is thousand times more advanced than the best tech the other races have. BioWare didn't explain how it all works but they don't really have to. Did they explain how the Citadel work? No? But why isn't anyone crying about that?

Yes, it would be nice to know exactly how it worked, but it's also nice to have some holes to fill with your imagination. Filling all holes in a huge story like Mass Effect would require another 10 parts of the game just to explain shit, without any story. Just explaining stuff.
Sorry, but you guys ask to much. Don't be a ***** and turn on your brain cells. I remember the old time where I even had to imagine the whole story for a game and I still have fun. You guys have everything, don't like it a bit and now you QQ.
Lets call the wambulance. (ノಠ益&#3232ノ彡 uıɐɹq

I can rationalize the ending in several ways (my preferred is the indoctrination) but even if it all makes sense it is still bad because it is unrewarding - all three options are too similar, you don't see the results of your work, the Normandy part is weird (if the explosion of the relay is damaging the Normandy you can bet your ass it will destroy a bunch of other ships - it is not harmless).

And the syntheses ending IS space magic. What just happen? Joker gained some green lights and EDI a kidney? I could buy that if you were essentially creating a new form of life (destroying the old life in the process), but just adding batteries and souls to every life form in the galaxy on a whim is way silly.

The problem with the ending is not because it is SMART and you have to fill the holes with your imagination. It is because it is DUMB and you have to fill the holes with your imagination, which is painful.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Well, the motives of the reapers and the god kid can be handwaved as the people who built them not being particularly bright, but there's really no excuse for the blatant space magic merge ending.

Yeah, you would THINK that people who can build millions of 2 kilometer long giant spaceships of death who can survive for tens of thousand of years in deep space would be a little smarter than to paradoxically allow the cycle to continue. But ... then again ... we're not giant mechanical space squids so what do we know

I actually like the Reaper's motivation, and it makes a certain twisted sense. Essentially,

You are supposed to protect organic life.
Advanced organic life will always create synthetic life.
Synthetic life will eventually attempt to eradicate all organic life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore, you destroy organic life that is able to create synthetic life.

It's wrong to do so, and some of the premisies are shaky, but the idea is that you are cutting off the infected arm (i.e. races that can create synthetic life) so that the rest of the body (the rest of organic life) can live.

[sub][sub][sub]The Synthesis ending doesn't really make any amount of sense though.[/sub][/sub][/sub]

 

[boag]

This image sums up everything up in a nice little package.

Spoiler

 

[Simeon Ivanov]

-snip-

But aren't they actually doing more harm than good? Because they are allowing for the synthetics-organics cycle to continue. It would be simpler to just destroy everything so that the cycle will end and there won't be any more future conflicts.

 

[Zen Toombs]

-snip-

But aren't they actually doing more harm than good? Because they are allowing for the synthetics-organics cycle to continue. It would be simpler to just destroy everything so that the cycle will end and there won't be any more future conflicts.

Ah, but the first rule is that organic life must be preserved. It wouldn't make any sense for them to try to destroy everything, as then they would be literally bringing to pass what the Reapers are trying to avoid.

Spoiler: Disclaimer

Now as I said, I do not think "This makes perfect sense! This is totally the right thing to do!". I am merely explaining how the Reaper's logic does hold water, albeit really weird radioactive water you don't want to drink.

[small]I think that metaphor ran away from me.[/small]

 

[Simeon Ivanov]

-snip-

I always wanted the Reapers to have some kind of incomprehensible logic that organics cannot understand. Something like Cthulhu. That would be interesting

 

[Zen Toombs]

My point is this. Reapers come through Citidal Mass Relay. But in ME1 the Protheans mess up a normal Reaper invasion causing them to go to plan B. Now what would plan A have been? Maybe they appear there to talk directly to the council? Maybe they explain and give a choice?

I also wonder if the Reapers, leaving the mass relay gates behind make a self full filling prophecy - organics use gates and Reaper tech, that tech leads to creating synthetic life before we are evolved and intelligent enough to have that power to create. So there will always be Geth in some form because of the tech the Reapers leave behind.

To the first, Plan A was "Stream through the Cidatel [secret]Relay, nom on everything" suprise attack. Plan B is "aw man, now we have to WALK all the way from dark space? That'll take like 3 years! I want to nom on everything NOW!".

It was the same basic plan (nom on everything), just that A is a suprise attack that destroys any hope of a meaningful organic response, and B gives organics time to respond.

To your second point, it is possible that the Reaper Tech could lead to creating synthetic life easier, but synthetic life WILL happen regardless. It is only a matter of time - for more information, look up the Singularity.

captcha-have an inkling

 

[Zen Toombs]

-snip-

I always wanted the Reapers to have some kind of incomprehensible logic that organics cannot understand. Something like Cthulhu. That would be interesting

It is mostly incomprehensible, and no human would come to that conclusion. Even as I describe it I can not fully grasp it, I can only hold on to the barest threads of the Reaper's logic.

I am beyond your comprehension.

My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence.

 

[Hyper-space]

All endings
1) So the Mass Relays are destroyed in every outcome. Doesn't this mean the united galactic flotillas I gathered are stranded on Earth? If so, the Quarians, Volus and Turians are screwed because there is no dextro-amino (or whatever it was) food for them.
2) How does Shepard survive in space without any air? I didn't see a dome or ... anything that would indicate there was air during your conversation with the Deus Ex Child
3) So ... the synthetics are destroying organics in order to prevent synthetics from destroying organics ... To quote GLaDOS "Don't think about it, don't think about it ..."
4) Why can't I use Joker/EDI or Geth/Quarians as an argument agains the God Child's logic?
5) The God Child said that someone built the Reapers ... when? And for what purpose?
6) Didn't Arrival teach us that destroying a Mass Relay will result in the destruction of an entire solar system? Is that sill valid here? (Why not?)
7) What happened to my squadmates in the final mission? Did they really just abandon one of their closest friends? And why was Joker fleeing from Earth?

1) The fleets can go to other planets, they're not stranded on this earth and are able to travel between clusters, plus they have a lot of available fuel sources.
2)If I remember correctly, they some sort of force-field technology that could patch up breaches in the spaceships, maybe the Space-child used it on Shepherd.
3)They destroy any organic life that has reached a certain as a temporal measure, kind of like a response from nature that resets things. This ties with your 4th question, as the conflict between Synthetics and Organics was inevitable, despite your valiant attempts before. Its suggested that although you managed to broker peace between the Quarians and Geth, the conflicts would inevitably rise up again, whether its this cycle or the next.
5)Cannot say who built the Reapers, might be some metaphysical stuff going on with the universe or something, but their purpose was to reset the universe, as synthetics would in the destroy ALL organic life. The Reapers ensured that organic life would rise up again, instead of being completely wiped out forever.
6)I do not remember the exchange word-by-word, but wasn't it implied that the Mass Relays were just disabled? Maybe it just sent a ray that made it inert, instead of you know, a giant asteroid being crashed into it. Who knows.
7)The time between you being hit by the laser and you making the final decision is enough for Joker to rescue whoever is left and then race way once shit hit the fan. Big-ass scary explosion is enough to make some people run.

Destroy
1) So I destroy every piece of machinery in the galaxy, sending every known race back at least 1000 years (or so). But what about the Quarians and the Volus? They can't live without their suits. So if I choose this option, I'm committing double genocide ... (to my wife no less)
2) The Geth also die ... but didn't Tali said that the Geth blur the line between synthetic and organics?

1)What? You don't destroy every piece of machinery, you destroy all synthetic life.
2)Dunno? Maybe it was a rhetorical observation?

Control
1) So ... WHY is the cycle inevitable again? Quarians and Geth? Joker and EDI? ... nothing?

1)Who's to say? As they say, there are some things best left unexplained (Midichlorians)

Synthesis
1) How does this actually work?
2) If everything is part synthetic now, and everything is part syntetic, do those units have souls?
3) How do different races react to this?
4) How do the quarians survive?
5) How does this affect the culture and life of everyone? Is there piece now? Are there wars? Does this affect emotions? Love, Hate, Fear, Friendship?
6) Does this affect intellect? Does it make everyone smarter?

1)Dunno, didn't get the option
2)Ummm....I guess souls exist now?
3-6)Maybe they will expand upon the effects of the synthesis, this is less "lack" of logic and more "exposition that they didn't want to awkwardly cram into the ending, when there are more than enough opportunities for it to be explained later".

 

[zinho73]

Well, the motives of the reapers and the god kid can be handwaved as the people who built them not being particularly bright, but there's really no excuse for the blatant space magic merge ending.

Yeah, you would THINK that people who can build millions of 2 kilometer long giant spaceships of death who can survive for tens of thousand of years in deep space would be a little smarter than to paradoxically allow the cycle to continue. But ... then again ... we're not giant mechanical space squids so what do we know

I actually like the Reaper's motivation, and it makes a certain twisted sense. Essentially,

You are supposed to protect organic life.
Advanced organic life will always create synthetic life.
Synthetic life will eventually attempt to eradicate all organic life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore, you destroy organic life that is able to create synthetic life.

It's wrong to do so, and some of the premisies are shaky, but the idea is that you are cutting off the infected arm (i.e. races that can create synthetic life) so that the rest of the body (the rest of organic life) can live.

[sub][sub][sub]The Synthesis ending doesn't really make any amount of sense though.[/sub][/sub][/sub]

The problem is that the Creators have a magical device capable of exterminating all synthetic life in the galaxy at once, so the easier solution is to press a button every thousand years to destroy every synthetic life (rebuild the mass effect relays and you are ready to do that again). In the meantime the synthetics would have to be:
1. rebuilt (by people that know that they could rebel)
2. Rebel
3. Grow in numbers
4. Spread throughout the galaxy
5. Engage in war with every space-faring civ and win.
6. Travel around the universe killing all remaining organic life.

Around number 4 they would already be extinct again.

 

[boag]

My point is this. Reapers come through Citidal Mass Relay. But in ME1 the Protheans mess up a normal Reaper invasion causing them to go to plan B. Now what would plan A have been? Maybe they appear there to talk directly to the council? Maybe they explain and give a choice?

I also wonder if the Reapers, leaving the mass relay gates behind make a self full filling prophecy - organics use gates and Reaper tech, that tech leads to creating synthetic life before we are evolved and intelligent enough to have that power to create. So there will always be Geth in some form because of the tech the Reapers leave behind.

Thats part of the retarded logic that some people question about the ending.
The Implementation of the plan is sound, yet the motivation behind the plan is completely and utterly stupid to no ends.

Yes, the reapers made the relays so that advanced organics would develop along a technological line that they already dominated, to make the subjugation and harvesting easy for them.

An analogy, Im going to give you a lvl 1 Water Pokemon, because I know you will not be able to reach lvl 100 before I come back and beat the shit out of it with my lvl 100 Grass Pokemon.

In this way, the plan is brilliant, any counter measure the organics developed would be doomed to fail.

Now for the reasoning, why in the fuck would you wipe out advanced organics in the first place? when most of the Organics were already committed to killing off all synthetic life.

Javik mentions what an race of assholes the protheans were and how they deemed it necessary to wipe out all the Synthetics and enslave all races so that it would not happen again.

they were winning a war to wipe out synthetics and then the Reapers show up and fuck it all up.

The Protheans, a species of completely imperialistic dictatorial douchekings, had the entire Galaxy under a stric rule of "If you fuck around we will genocide your species to extinction." Get fucked up by the reapers that want to protect organics.

I doesnt make sense.