Looking for PC RPGs with more talking and persuading than fighting.

[DoPo]

Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines - it doesn't quite fit what you want but it's close - you can usually solve the quests by talking, fighting or sneaking. Usually at least two of those - sometimes talking isn't available. However, fighting is not that necessary, at least until you get towards the second...third or quarter of the game when it becomes more and more necessary. [...] Second - you have three social skills to choose from - Intimidate, Persuade and Seduction, of them Intimidate straight up sucks - do NOT pick it up, I'm serious - Persuade is normally the best but Seduction is a viable alternative. Females benefit slightly more from Seduction than males.

I've heard that in this game a speech-based character is literally the worst option you can pick because, as even you mentioned, late-game has gradually more and more fighting. Any advice on how to balance it out if I wanted to play this game?

Well, there is plenty of XP to go around - focusing on a social skill wouldn't eat all of it. It's usually recommended to pick at least one of the following groups of skills:
- social skills - Intimidate, Persuade, Seduction, as I mentioned above. Again, Intimidate, sucks, the other two are viable (Persuade is a bit better)
- "security circumvention" skills - there is Lockpicking and Hacking. You can happily get both, but you can also focus on one. You don't generally need to max them. All characters have the Blood Buff ability, which gives them a short term boost to Dexterity and this in turn boosts Lockpicking, some clans (Malkavian, Tremere, Toreador) have the Auspex Discipline which gives a short term bonus to Wits and that, in turn, boosts Hacking.
- fighting skills - these are Brawl (hand to hand), Melee (weapons) and Ranged. It doesn't hugely matter what you pick - at the end of the game, everything is going to die if you have about 6-7+ in your chosen category. Generally, though, Melee is better for the most part of the game, and Ranged is almost useless in the beginning, at least until you leave the first hub. Partly the reason is that the only ranged weapon you have at that point is literally the worst weapon in the entire game - if you want a ranged character, you might want to invest a couple of dots into Melee or so, alternatively, skip the quests with fighting and come back for them later (there are two, that I can think of).

With that aside, I'll also mention the list of skills that are utterly useless:
- Intimidate - I've explained that one.
- Investigation - what it does is, it highlights items and intractable objects. Which you can see anyway. It also adds some extra lines in a couple of conversations (as in, I think it's really just two in the entire game) but it's hardly worth the XP invested.
- Haggle - that's the "merchant" skill of other RPGs - reduces the price of things yo buy and increases it for things you sell. Money is usually enough - I can only ever see it useful for a fist time ranged character who would go and fight a lot (lots of weapons and ammo to buy - first time, you might want to check more guns), otherwise you should be fine.
- Sneaking - this to a lower extent, actually. It's weirdly broken - at lower levels it's pretty ineffective, when you get to about 6, you are invisible. I've literally bumped into NPCs with that much and they didn't see me. It was supposed to be rebalanced in a more recent UP but I didn't see much of a difference. Didn't really play it much, either. If you have access to the Obfuscate Discipline, that makes you completely invisible, so Sneaking becomes obsolete.

With all that said, don't pick a Nosferatu. It's not because of what I've seen said many times "You need to move through the sewers and avoid people all the time!" - no, that is wrong. It does, however, cut away some social options - not all, mind you, not even the majority, but some of them. They do have some amazingly funny dialogue as well, on the other hand.

 

[NPC009]

Probably not exactly what you're looking for, but this one may be worth keeping in mind during the next Steam Sales: Always Sometimes Monsters.

It looks like a 16-bit console RPG but has no fighting at all. You play as a washed up writer on a rather desperate quest to meet up with your ex-best friend before their wedding. It's not nearly as complex as some 'proper' PC RPGs but it does have what gray morality.

 

[ninja666]

Actually, I just remembered a game that might suit you. Maybe.
Kings of Dragon Pass [http://www.gog.com/game/king_of_dragon_pass]
You play as a leader of a tribe and have to make loads of decisions that effect the path you go down. It has some strategy elements in there too, as you have to watch your tribes resources and population and such.

Not exactly what I'm looking for, but it's an interesting concept nonetheless. I think I'll try it out. Thanks.

Probably not exactly what you're looking for, but this one may be worth keeping in mind during the next Steam Sales: Always Sometimes Monsters.

It looks like a 16-bit console RPG but has no fighting at all. You play as a washed up writer on a rather desperate quest to meet up with your ex-best friend before their wedding. It's not nearly as complex as some 'proper' PC RPGs but it does have what gray morality.

I already have this game. Got it for free as a gift. However, I couldn't play it for more than an hour. The premise seemed great, but I think being made in RPG Maker and stylized for a 16-bit SNES RPG kinda ruined all the seriousness it tried to create.

 

[NPC009]

Hm, that's a valid complaint. How about something with no actual graphics, then? How do you feel about digital choose-your-own-adventure books? There are a bunch on Steam ($3 each or so) and one I liked was Choice of the Deathless.

You're a brand-new exmployee at an elite demonic lawfirm and your work includes drawing up demonic contracts, negotiating with goddesses and occassionally battling pure evil for the sake of the world. You might die, find the love of your life and live happily ever after, or both! It's, eh, all about choices, obviously. Even battles play out that way and success is partly decided by the stats in the background. For instance, if you're sleep deprived because of a heavy workload, you'll have a hard time making that cunning trap work.

 

[Scow2]

Maybe Alpha Protocol also made by Obsidian. I never played it but always wanted to give it a whirl. Maybe the Telltale games might do the trick as well, they really aren't that far from being RPGs.

This is a HUGE problem with RPGs, they are supposed to FOCUS on the role-playing, not combat. Hell, you don't even need combat for a game to be an RPG. This is exactly why I consider very few games to be RPGs because almost all of them focus on combat. And, most RPGs have shitty combat so why am I playing a combat focused game with shitty combat when I can just play an action game with good combat? It's quite hilarious that something like Mass Effect is called a shooter with RPG elements by a lot of people yet most of your playtime is actually spent role-playing unlike pretty much 99% of video game RPGs.

RPGs have been about fighting ever since Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson first introduced their White Box "Dungeons & Dragons" in 1974.

 

[Someone Depressing]

I think the original Fallouts were better for this. In the first, there was maybe one conflict that couldn't be resolved with diplomacy... and if you were a diplomatic character, you had your 4 companions beat him up like a schoolyard posse.

Actually, it's really hard to come up with nay. RPGs have been focused on combat and violence since their conception. Even RPGs that advertise the player's ability to resolve situations peacefully tend to have a few combat sections, sometimes optional, sometimes required.

So, if by the "role-playing" part, you want to play as a priest or a village leader or a simple labour worker forced into poor circumstances, derp, the developers thought that you'd want to play a violent and confrontational role that, duh, that's what RPGs are all about!

I would recommend Winter Voices since it technically contains very little violence, but half of the gameplay is adventure game-style exploration, and the other half turn-based strictly defensive strategy. So yeah, that's the closest example I can give.

 

[Javetts Eall Raksha]

you want RPGs that let you talk through your differences instead of fighting? Shin Megami Tensei. I'm sure you're not going to find anything offensive in it...

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Maybe Alpha Protocol also made by Obsidian. I never played it but always wanted to give it a whirl. Maybe the Telltale games might do the trick as well, they really aren't that far from being RPGs.

This is a HUGE problem with RPGs, they are supposed to FOCUS on the role-playing, not combat. Hell, you don't even need combat for a game to be an RPG. This is exactly why I consider very few games to be RPGs because almost all of them focus on combat. And, most RPGs have shitty combat so why am I playing a combat focused game with shitty combat when I can just play an action game with good combat? It's quite hilarious that something like Mass Effect is called a shooter with RPG elements by a lot of people yet most of your playtime is actually spent role-playing unlike pretty much 99% of video game RPGs.

RPGs have been about fighting ever since Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson first introduced their White Box "Dungeons & Dragons" in 1974.

DnD is an RPG because it has role-playing in it, not because it has fighting. Fighting isn't the core of DnD either nor should it be the core of any RPG. Just because DnD became the most well-known RPG doesn't make it the only type of RPG either. RPGs tend to be nothing but poor action games because you spend the majority of your time fighting and the combat is usually sub-par, there's really no point in playing most of them, the writing might save it but very very few video games actually have good writing either. Video game RPGs rarely does any of the things RPGs are supposed excel at well.

 

[DoPo]

Maybe Alpha Protocol also made by Obsidian. I never played it but always wanted to give it a whirl. Maybe the Telltale games might do the trick as well, they really aren't that far from being RPGs.

This is a HUGE problem with RPGs, they are supposed to FOCUS on the role-playing, not combat. Hell, you don't even need combat for a game to be an RPG. This is exactly why I consider very few games to be RPGs because almost all of them focus on combat. And, most RPGs have shitty combat so why am I playing a combat focused game with shitty combat when I can just play an action game with good combat? It's quite hilarious that something like Mass Effect is called a shooter with RPG elements by a lot of people yet most of your playtime is actually spent role-playing unlike pretty much 99% of video game RPGs.

RPGs have been about fighting ever since Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson first introduced their White Box "Dungeons & Dragons" in 1974.

DnD is an RPG because it has role-playing in it, not because it has fighting. Fighting isn't the core of DnD either nor should it be the core of any RPG.

To be more precise, DnD was a glorified fighting game when it came out. It did grow out of a fantasy battle game (Chainmail) and it was more or less trying to stuff the same, on a smaller scale (one unit per person) in totally-not-Tolkien-you-guys. It did evolve into "oh we could actually do more than just smash imaginary skills", though. How well it grew is a different matter entirely, but it did. And it became famous for it, too.

Ironically every edition war ever over it has been over the players ignoring the RP elements entirely and arguing over pointless rules and mechanics which aren't that. And then claiming that is "roll playing".

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I'm kind of surprised that 30 posts in, nobody has mentioned Ultima IV. If you can get past the fact that it's 30 years old, it's exactly what you're looking for, OP.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Have you played Mass Effect? It's amazing and what you want.

 

[aozgolo]

Well, The Witcher series kind of scratches the morally grey choices matter area. Yes it does have combat in it, and it's a very love/hate style combat for most people, but play the game on easy where combat isn't a HUGE deal and you can sit back and rather enjoy how your decisions have real weighty consequences, that sometimes don't even show up until hours after you've made the choice.

There's an indie RPG called Inquisitor that is VERY text heavy and lets you focus a lot on dialogue and working through situations rather than just go in and kill everything... combat isn't totally avoidable though and there will be a bit of it to slog through, not that it's bad, but take it as you wish.

Finally while you mentioned adventure games aren't your kick due to the puzzles, you might want to look into Visual Novels, as they are largely text-based choose-your-own-adventure stories that let you decide which way to take the story.

 

[thoughtwrangler]

The Quest For Glory games might help to scratch that itch, particularly 3, 4, and 5. They're not morally grey, per se, but they involve a lot more non-combat roleplaying (picking locks, climbing, etc.) than most RPG's and how you approach the game varies drastically depending on which class you choose. (Fighter, Thief, or Mage)

There are numerous conversation options that hinge on persuasion, and the game over screens when your hero dies are hilarious.

There are some puzzles, but they're not difficult, and on some of the later games (3, 4 and 5 I believe) they even have an option to basically make the puzzles solve themselves.

You could see them as point-and-clicks with RPG stats and leveling up, or you could see them as RPG's with a heavy emphasis on dialogue and choice. I'd recommend youtubing them sometime to get a feel for it, especially part IV

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

You can see the reason for my initial reluctance now. There are only a handful of RPGs that are truly well written - Ps:T, Arcanum, MotB, KotOR2, Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas, VtM:B, System Shock 2, maybe Alpha Protocol, maybe Deus Ex and maybe Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader. That's it. These are examples of true masterpieces of not only the genre but of the video game industry as a whole. All these examples (except the maybes, the Fallout games and VtM:B) are literally the only games (with a few notable exceptions, mainly Bioshock 1 and Spec Ops: The Line) which can be said to be somewhat on par with the literary greats of other types of art. The other games typically said to be well written aren't well written in the same way as these - mainly Telltale games, Half-life, the first 3 Thief games etc. you name them. They are interesting and well-crafted, but that's it. There is a profound intellectual wealth to be gained from the games I listed which are neither surpassed nor even gotten close to being matched with recent releases, the exception being Spec Ops: The Line.

I went on a tangent there, but my point is that there is very little choice regarding RPGs in general. Indie RPGs aren't nearly on the same level, because their goals are different and trying to fill a niche of very specific type of gamer. You have the option of subparly written games of course - Bioware's "opuses" being the highlight, but even then they aren't very numerous.

E.i we need more RPGs ;p

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

There are a couple, that have already been mentioned:

Planescape: Torment - If you don't mind older games, it's a wonderful story and characters with higher intelligence, wisdom and charisma are actually better than combat focused characters.

Pillars of eternity - newer rpg based on infinity engine classics. There is a little unavoidable combat, but for the most part a non combat player character can complete the game. Avoiding fights, taking stealthier approaches and many conversation options that shape the story and how you're perceived.

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines - Play as a malkavian or as a nosferatu. There's a little unavoidable combat but for the most part these two clans use subterfuge, stealth and vampiric powers (Dementia and obfuscation in particular) to complete objectives. You don't have to kill many people at all and no xp is rewarded for doing so.

 

[Indecipherable]

Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura can be completed without killing anyone and it is a big RPG.

Ultimately though you are really seeking a niche within a niche genre so your options are going to be limited.

 

[Tilly]

Sounds like you're probably better off with a point and click adventure game to be honest. Video games without fighting is a really tall order. We like the fighting

Have you played Mass Effect? It's amazing and what you want.

It's also complete black and white! It's so black and white, you only get the whitest options if you're already white enough.

 

[beyondbrainmatter]

Honestly don't know how to search for it myself cause my request seems to be so niche that Google gives me nothing, so here's another one of my universally loved "recommend a game" threads. Hope you can help me out.

Recently, while replaying Fallout New Vegas, I found out that talking your way through quests and solving them peacefully can be incredibly fun, not to mention persuading people to get more/better rewards. Are there any other RPGs out there, aside from the obvious one - Planescape Torment, where a diplomatic approach and intelligent, charismatic, speech-based characters are viable options? Games with complex dialogue system and large variety of dialogue options, where I can talk my way through most of the quests and only fight when absolutely necessary? Preferably morally grey (please warn me if your suggestion has a black & white morality), so I'd have to think twice before choosing any option.

Thank you in advance for pointing me in the right direction.

If you can get past the oldschool graphics, then "Planescape: Torment" is probably what you're looking for.

 

[CrystalShadow]

I can't really think of any, but I know what you mean.

I had this problem with star trek online in the beginning. Not just for personal reasons, but also the setting. Non-combat problems, and diplomatic, engineering or scientific solutions to issues are common in the setting, and yet you didn't see much of it.
They got much better at it over time, and I spotted way more non-combat missions later on, but you can tell the underlying engine isn't very goid at it...


Anyway, I think as a premise it's rare, because it's hard to do. Compared to combat, communicating with npc's usually seems very shallow and lifeless.
Not because it's less good in a mechanical context, but because it's emulating a concept that is many orders of magnitude more complicated than combat is.

Somehow I get the feeling there probably won't be many social focused games/options in games until we can at least get close to having AI that can sort of pass the turing test.

It's difficult to do the concept justice with a few static dialogue options and pre-written scripts...