Losing my native language

[cacophonick]

Language is not simply a basic means of communication. To think in two different languages is to structure your entire thought process in two completely different ways. Translations of important texts into English don't always relay the full intended spirit of the original work, and vice versa. For example, Franz Kafka's 'The Metamorphosis', originally written in Czech, suffered in the translation of its core themes. It certainly has more impact in its native language.

Back to the main point, even if a universal language could be adopted, I imagine several branches and dialects would break off, and develop a unique flavour of their own. I mean, our modern 'English' would be indecipherable to many people who also spoke 'English' in the Middle Ages, or indeed even 150 years ago. Who can say that any current iteration of language would be a permanent one? Or even that any one language is the 'best' one?

I do see the problem of the language branching out into dialects that might move in different directions and, with time, become mutually unintelligible; and perhaps evolving into new languages altogether. However, due to our modern infrastructure, I do not think this will happen.

The main reason, I think, dialects evolve, is that communities are separated over long periods of time, with few to no means of communication. Take Norway for example: Despite being a tiny country with only 4.8 million inhabitants, we have a shitload of dialects [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_dialects]. This is largely attributed to Norway being a wonder of topography; composed almost entirely out of mountains and valleys. Until just recently, traversing even small distances was a difficult, dangerous, and extremely time consuming process. Therefore the different communities were largely separated, so the languages spoken in the different regions moved in different directions and developed their own quirks. (For example, the entire west part of Norway pronounces the 'r' like the French do, instead of the retroflex 'r' that is the norm.)

If you compare this to New York, an area with a population almost twice that of Norway, there are almost no variations in dialect. This would be because all the people living in the area have been able to communicate without problems throughout its history (and, of course, because the USA is a fairly young country).

My point is that all the means of communication and transport we have in today's world would enable us use one language; while keeping the distortion of the language in the different regions down to a minimum.

Also: Let me be the first to welcome you to the Escapist.

I agree.

In the 21st century we have an unprecedented global cultural environment, and for the first time in history, a viable need for a universal language. At no other point in history have so many people been able to communicate in one space so easily and so rapidly.

However, I think as these topological barriers are broken down, new sociological ones will be constructed. Ultimately, people strive towards creating an 'identity' for themselves, whether that be a nationality, or a race, or a social group, and I feel that language is a big part of that.

Indeed, I feel that our modern infrastructure is the key to the next step in our linguistic evolution, not an obstacle.

Right at this moment, one of the largest linguistic divides is between the technologically literate and the technologically illiterate. In less than twenty years, a whole new 'dialect' has emerged on the internet for the internet. For example, LOLcats, 1337speak, #doyouseewhereimgoingwiththis.

In this way, I believe that many linguistic offshoots would be created, connected directly to groups of people with similar social interests - separated yes, but by mountains of our own making. Distortion of language in this way is inevitable, but not unwelcome. Literature, drama, and poetry depend on these idiosyncracies to create art and to remain relevant.

To come back to your main point, I feel you may be right, in that a universal language would be possible to create purely on a bureaucratic level (lawyerspeak? newspeak?), but to try and implement a common language to use on a casual or artistic level I think is both impossible and unnecessary.

Also: Thankyou! (or tusen takk?)

 

[Tanis]

I speak/read/think American-English...so it's all good for me.

If there ever was a 'Global Language' I'd have to think it'd because after some massive war, and depending on the victor, English.

Everyone seems to speak/learn English before/after their native-tongue.
You can probably blame computers for that.

Sorry for the double post, but the only country that wouldn't accept English are the French.

Then we just threaten to declare war on them.
They surrender in about four to five hours, with English as their official language.

 

[Duruznik]

Welcome to the world of bilinguals. It's a common joke that true bilinguals don't know 2 languages very well, they just know both of them quite poorly.

Don't worry about it. It's perfectly natural and the only thing to do about it is try to use your native tongue as much as possible, but it won't solve everything. Bilinguals constantly have to resort to the other language whenever using one language. It's a curse and a blessing.

And yeah, this is from personal experience. I'm a proud Hebrew-English speaker, and native n both!

 

[theriddlen]

When i was reading the first post, i started to think "Yeah, i ..." and suddenly realized, that i was thinking in english. And my native is polish. Also, i noticed that i feel more comfortable thinking in english than polish.

 

[Jonluw]

I'm actually Scandinavian myself and, trust me, Swedes don't appreciate the fact that the world views them as blonde airheads either.

It is very much true that Sweden has the weakest cultural identity, Norway is not far off actually. (No, wearing a lusekofte does not count as a cultural identity)


I can understand that you feel a bit distant to the scenario I described. This is because you're most likely born in the mid '90s, where the things I explained had just been 'settled' into the nordic homes. It may seem natural to you, but anyone born 10 years before you will recognize this as very familiar.

The end result is that you're feeling as if the amount of English you're being exposed to is 'just normal', whereas it's actually a very high amount compared to anyone born in the 80's.
The Swedes have an expression for the situation you describe, "Svenglish" (Swedish-English) and "Försvenskning" (Swedification). I'm unsure if Norway has adapted to these terms yet, if not, you will soon.
The whole concept of these two terms derive from the 'English boom' between ~87-95 and is common among that generation as the exposure to the English language is so high you have grown up with the duality of Norwegian and English and some words get mixed up due to which language you were exposed to the most. Scouting would be an obvious one as it's such a common word in gaming. And as is traditional in the "Swedification" ("Norification"?) the word is adapted to Norwegian and used with it.

This is common among most countries, although more prominent in scandinavia (Again due to identity) and due to previous reasons, it's also expected.

While I understand you're not aware of the quick and explosive arrival of English in the every day lives of Scandinavians, it is, in fact, not much later than when you were born that this happened.
(Btw are you aware of how much English you *REALLY* speak in your daily life?)

Edit: Short sidenote - The Danes are the worst,
you can read about it here http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/249/246
if interested.

Interesting. I have no idea how much English I speak in my daily life. If you count the stuff I do online, English outweighs Norwegian by far, but if you're just talking about actually speaking, I do try to stick with Norwegian. This is where my problem steps in though: Due to my scranting vocabulary, I "occasionally" have to resort to anglicisms.

As for speaking the equivalent of "Svenglish", I don't think I do that a lot, unless I'm talking about videogames, anime or the likes (so, most of the time, then).

We do have the term "Norwenglish" but that's not used in the same way "Svenglish" is. "Norwenglish" is just English with a bad Norwegian accent. Like Petter Solberg or Thor Heyerdahl.

 

[Nickolai77]

I'm actually Scandinavian myself and, trust me, Swedes don't appreciate the fact that the world views them as blonde airheads either.

It is very much true that Sweden has the weakest cultural identity, Norway is not far off actually. (No, wearing a lusekofte does not count as a cultural identity)


I can understand that you feel a bit distant to the scenario I described. This is because you're most likely born in the mid '90s, where the things I explained had just been 'settled' into the nordic homes. It may seem natural to you, but anyone born 10 years before you will recognize this as very familiar.

The end result is that you're feeling as if the amount of English you're being exposed to is 'just normal', whereas it's actually a very high amount compared to anyone born in the 80's.
The Swedes have an expression for the situation you describe, "Svenglish" (Swedish-English) and "Försvenskning" (Swedification). I'm unsure if Norway has adapted to these terms yet, if not, you will soon.
The whole concept of these two terms derive from the 'English boom' between ~87-95 and is common among that generation as the exposure to the English language is so high you have grown up with the duality of Norwegian and English and some words get mixed up due to which language you were exposed to the most. Scouting would be an obvious one as it's such a common word in gaming. And as is traditional in the "Swedification" ("Norification"?) the word is adapted to Norwegian and used with it.

This is common among most countries, although more prominent in scandinavia (Again due to identity) and due to previous reasons, it's also expected.

While I understand you're not aware of the quick and explosive arrival of English in the every day lives of Scandinavians, it is, in fact, not much later than when you were born that this happened.
(Btw are you aware of how much English you *REALLY* speak in your daily life?)

Edit: Short sidenote - The Danes are the worst,
you can read about it here http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/249/246
if interested.

I appreciate your thoughts on this topic as i have often wondered why there are so many English speaking Scandinavian's on the Escapist and relatively few, say, Spaniards, French and Italians. I was never aware that the Scandinavian countries have "weak national identities" although i'm not really too sure if i understand how this is possible: Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark have existed as national identity's for many hundreds if not thousands of years. Most Scandinavian countries have their Viking heritage, Sweden became quite a major European power in the 17th/18th century, Danemark has existed as a country for...well thousands of years. I recall that they resisted conquest by Charlemagne, and they nearly conquered England in the 9th century.

I wouldn't regard the Scandinavian countries as fundamentally different to any other European country, and so i don't quite understand how the Scandinavian countries can have weak national identities. I'm not questioning your judgement btw, because you obviously know more about Scandinavia than i do. I just have a few curiosity's about your post.

 

[NLS]

Hiya escapists.

I've been using English a lot lately. When I read something online, or post something on these forums, it is mostly in English. I neither write nor read a lot in my mother tongue.

Spoiler: Spoilered for neat-ness

Having to use English on the internet, when watching TV, and when playing videogames has really improved my English. Now that's all fine and good, but recently I've found that when I try to lead a conversation more complex than just casual everyday talk in my native language, I have trouble phrasing myself without resorting to English words and expressions; and when talking I sometimes begin a sentence, only to find I can't finish it, because I was using the English sentence structure.

Do any of you have personal experience with this kind of phenomena?

This little problem of mine leads me to what I would like to discuss with you (in addition to my situation that is): Do you think the world should ultimately have one, and only one, language shared by all its inhabitants, or do you prefer the diversity?

Personally, I think the world would flow a lot better with only one language; but I am far too much of a romantic to let all the different languages out there die.

Edit: My native language is Norwegian, if anyone cares.

Edit: I sometimes catch myself thinking in English. This, I find very strange.

Fellow Norwegian, it's been the same for me since 2007. I spent half a year in Germany, and instead of reading German, I spent most of my time on the internet reading and writing English. After returning to Norway again, I'd do errors like saying "riste hender" (literally translated from "shaking hands" to Norwegian).

 

[wildpeaks]

I'm kinda losing my native tongue as well: I even had to switch my phone to english, otherwise I don't understand the text of the alarm clock for a few minutes until I'm more awake.

 

[Jonluw]

I agree.

In the 21st century we have an unprecedented global cultural environment, and for the first time in history, a viable need for a universal language. At no other point in history have so many people been able to communicate in one space so easily and so rapidly.

However, I think as these topological barriers are broken down, new sociological ones will be constructed. Ultimately, people strive towards creating an 'identity' for themselves, whether that be a nationality, or a race, or a social group, and I feel that language is a big part of that.

Indeed, I feel that our modern infrastructure is the key to the next step in our linguistic evolution, not an obstacle.

Right at this moment, one of the largest linguistic divides is between the technologically literate and the technologically illiterate. In less than twenty years, a whole new 'dialect' has emerged on the internet for the internet. For example, LOLcats, 1337speak, #doyouseewhereimgoingwiththis.

In this way, I believe that many linguistic offshoots would be created, connected directly to groups of people with similar social interests - separated yes, but by mountains of our own making. Distortion of language in this way is inevitable, but not unwelcome. Literature, drama, and poetry depend on these idiosyncracies to create art and to remain relevant.

To come back to your main point, I feel you may be right, in that a universal language would be possible to create purely on a bureaucratic level (lawyerspeak? newspeak?), but to try and implement a common language to use on a casual or artistic level I think is both impossible and unnecessary.

Also: Thankyou! (or tusen takk?)

My pleasure.

Ah, yes. Sociolects. Over here it has become quite common for children of certain social circles to speak Norwegian with a middle-eastern accent; intentionally speaking the language poorly and grammatically incorrect. We call this sociolect "Kebab-Norwegian".

I don't think the global language having a few dialects would be much of a problem though.

Yes, I do think it would be impossible to dictate a common language for all to use at all times; I do like to entertain the idea though.

 

[Mimssy]

snip

*sob* i feel for you man.

my native language is Greek. however, it is REALLY easy to forget. since i only visit greece in the summer now that i am older (i was born there) i forgot the language almost completely!

and now i can only flirt with girls i know speak english

*sigh*

Ancient Greek is pretty lousy for flirting, I've found.

I can feel myself losing my secondary languages (ancient Greek and Spanish) because I don't use them much in conversation. I used to use the Spanish quite a bit when I lived in south Florida, but not much anymore. It's quite sad to me.

 

[Beryl77]

It's the same with me, maybe worse. My native language is albanian but I live in Switzerland where you speak germand besides some other languages. Now, every day I hear and speak german in school and then the same after that when I'm together with my friends. The only time I really speak albanian is when I talk to my parents and other relatives or when I go to my home country in the holidays. Other then that I hardly have any contact with some else who speaks that language.

 

[sramota]

I appreciate your thoughts on this topic as i have often wondered why there are so many English speaking Scandinavian's on the Escapist and relatively few, say, Spaniards, French and Italians. I was never aware that the Scandinavian countries have "weak national identities" although i'm not really too sure if i understand how this is possible: Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark have existed as national identity's for many hundreds if not thousands of years. Most Scandinavian countries have their Viking heritage, Sweden became quite a major European power in the 17th/18th century, Danemark has existed as a country for...well thousands of years. I recall that they resisted conquest by Charlemagne, and they nearly conquered England in the 9th century.

I wouldn't regard the Scandinavian countries as fundamentally different to any other European country, and so i don't quite understand how the Scandinavian countries can have weak national identities. I'm not questioning your judgement btw, because you obviously know more about Scandinavia than i do. I just have a few curiosity's about your post.

The truth lies in what you're saying here: Vikings.
Scandinavian culture is based around ideas, concepts and customs that are derived from other countries.
Sweden is the most prominent example of this as Sweden also carries a stigmata around nationalistic pride.
As Scandinavia developed, and was christened, the old Norse heritages were lost, and replaced with Christian festivities and most of the scandinavian cuisine is either plain dreadful or imported.
The Scandinavian heritage and cultural identity is that of the Norse.
However the Norse ideals have been used by Nazi movements prominently the last 20-30 years and become synonymous.
This and the christening which (seriously) placed holidays right on top of 'heathen' holidays has caused the Norse culture to be weakened and more or less be the same as being racist.
The few 'pure' Norse celebrations in Scandinavia are ... Summer Soltice and.. Most Scandi countries still call christmas "Yule". And that's it.

And on that note - Scandinavia is very different from the rest of Europe actually.
In the same way Russia and France are different in culture.

 

[KindOfnElf]

I have difficulties sometimes with English, since it's not my native. There are days when it's really good, and days when I can't think of a word, and especially if I am tired... disaster.

And it happens, sometimes thoughts come faster in English, other times in my native, and some days I try thinking in French since I am learning it (and fail badly).

Universal language? What for? We already have love ^_^

 

[sramota]

Interesting. I have no idea how much English I speak in my daily life. If you count the stuff I do online, English outweighs Norwegian by far, but if you're just talking about actually speaking, I do try to stick with Norwegian. This is where my problem steps in though: Due to my scranting vocabulary, I "occasionally" have to resort to anglicisms.

As for speaking the equivalent of "Svenglish", I don't think I do that a lot, unless I'm talking about videogames, anime or the likes (so, most of the time, then).

We do have the term "Norwenglish" but that's not used in the same way "Svenglish" is. "Norwenglish" is just English with a bad Norwegian accent. Like Petter Solberg or Thor Heyerdahl.

Actually, you do it *alot* compared to your parents did for example.
I can't find a proper list of new loanwords right now, but they're many.
And the majority of computer-related words are adapted words for example.
(If you say 'Bluetooth', which Swedes do (I noticed) you're doing this on a very high level,
as it's an English word derived from Danish/Swedish, in the last 5-10 years)

'Svenglish' used to mean 'bad english' before but has adapted to a broader sense of just mixed Swedish and English.

What I'm trying to point out though is the effect of repeated exposure (Hello university psychology..) that you're noticing.
By playing games that repeat certain terms, which you in effect rarely use otherwise, in this case 'scouting', it'll become natural for you to relate the act of scouting to the English word. When you then speak Norwegian, the fact that you're more used to 'scouting' your brain tries to adapt it into Norwegian as it's such a strong bond between the act you're thinking of and the word 'scouting'.
Swedes have adapted this particular word much much more and you'd be creeped out if you're worried now..
The word used for scouting is commonly "scouta" in Swedish, whereas 10 years ago it was "rekognisering" or "rekon" for short. Even though "recon" is the same word, 'scouta' has been adapted.
So in short - effect of repeated exposure causes certain words you use rarely to be prefered to other words when you use them.
This is, again, founded in the national identity and the 'willingness' to substitue words.

(By comparison - France and Germany have VERY strong cultural identities and take great pride in them. Just look at how much English they get in media. 10 years ago it was literaly none, you couldn't go to France and not speak fluent French.
A less strong comparison is Spain and Italy, they commonly speak English to some extent, but if you compare them to scandinavians, they're nowhere near. If you think about it, the list of countries speaking 'proper' English goes UK, US, scandinavia..(I might've missed some other native English-speaking countries, but compare yourself to *any* other non-English country and you'll realize scandinavia as a whole is by all standards more proficient in English..)

 

[Jonluw]

Actually, you do it *alot* compared to your parents did for example.
I can't find a proper list of new loanwords right now, but they're many.
And the majority of computer-related words are adapted words for example.
(If you say 'Bluetooth', which Swedes do (I noticed) you're doing this on a very high level,
as it's an English word derived from Danish/Swedish, in the last 5-10 years)

'Svenglish' used to mean 'bad english' before but has adapted to a broader sense of just mixed Swedish and English.

What I'm trying to point out though is the effect of repeated exposure (Hello university psychology..) that you're noticing.
By playing games that repeat certain terms, which you in effect rarely use otherwise, in this case 'scouting', it'll become natural for you to relate the act of scouting to the English word. When you then speak Norwegian, the fact that you're more used to 'scouting' your brain tries to adapt it into Norwegian as it's such a strong bond between the act you're thinking of and the word 'scouting'.
Swedes have adapted this particular word much much more and you'd be creeped out if you're worried now..
The word used for scouting is commonly "scouta" in Swedish, whereas 10 years ago it was "rekognisering" or "rekon" for short. Even though "recon" is the same word, 'scouta' has been adapted.
So in short - effect of repeated exposure causes certain words you use rarely to be prefered to other words when you use them.
This is, again, founded in the national identity and the 'willingness' to substitue words.

(By comparison - France and Germany have VERY strong cultural identities and take great pride in them. Just look at how much English they get in media. 10 years ago it was literaly none, you couldn't go to France and not speak fluent French.
A less strong comparison is Spain and Italy, they commonly speak English to some extent, but if you compare them to scandinavians, they're nowhere near. If you think about it, the list of countries speaking 'proper' English goes UK, US, scandinavia..(I might've missed some other native English-speaking countries, but compare yourself to *any* other non-English country and you'll realize scandinavia as a whole is by all standards more proficient in English..)

Yeah, I suppose. I remember hearing Germans dub live-action movies intended for adults. Bleh. I can't handle dubs unless it's animated (not counting anime).

 

[Borntolose]

I know how you feel. I've been in Israel for six years now, and I hardly ever use English. I have even started thinking in Hebrew. It kinda sucks, since I like English much more, but there isn't anything I can do about it.

 

[Fetzenfisch]

I'm german, nearly all my games are in english,most of the books i read atm are english, most of the series and movies i watch, i watch in the english version, be it because the (usually pretty good (in international comparison)) dubbing isnt satisfying, it has something to do with comedy (never watch a comedy or sitcom in anything else than the original language or at least half of the humor is lost in translation) or its just earlier available.
I study english at the university, so half of my days i speak and read english there.
that leaves my use of german at the few free hours i have in the evening that i dont spend with media and about half of my classes in university.
But i dont get the feeling of losing my native language, hell no.
What may happen is that i want to express something, and i have a great english expression in english, but i cant think of something german, or the same thing the other way around, because both languages do have a lot of words, phrases or images, that can't be translated (at least not english <-> german)same counts for french, irish gaelic and latin (and i guess its the same with most languages i dont know) .
And that my dear friends is one of my reasons why a universal language is no good idea. It cant be so complex to get an aquivalent of all the languages specialities and characteristics.
And again my dear escapist a good reason to learn some foreign language(s).[not everything worth to read or watch will be translated, so you miss a lot of good stuff if you dont]

 

[Broady Brio]

Mine should've been Mandarin. I never learnt it and so I'll always think and act like a Englishman.

 

[Nickolai77]

I appreciate your thoughts on this topic as i have often wondered why there are so many English speaking Scandinavian's on the Escapist and relatively few, say, Spaniards, French and Italians. I was never aware that the Scandinavian countries have "weak national identities" although i'm not really too sure if i understand how this is possible: Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark have existed as national identity's for many hundreds if not thousands of years. Most Scandinavian countries have their Viking heritage, Sweden became quite a major European power in the 17th/18th century, Danemark has existed as a country for...well thousands of years. I recall that they resisted conquest by Charlemagne, and they nearly conquered England in the 9th century.

I wouldn't regard the Scandinavian countries as fundamentally different to any other European country, and so i don't quite understand how the Scandinavian countries can have weak national identities. I'm not questioning your judgement btw, because you obviously know more about Scandinavia than i do. I just have a few curiosity's about your post.

The truth lies in what you're saying here: Vikings.
Scandinavian culture is based around ideas, concepts and customs that are derived from other countries.
Sweden is the most prominent example of this as Sweden also carries a stigmata around nationalistic pride.
As Scandinavia developed, and was christened, the old Norse heritages were lost, and replaced with Christian festivities and most of the scandinavian cuisine is either plain dreadful or imported.
The Scandinavian heritage and cultural identity is that of the Norse.
However the Norse ideals have been used by Nazi movements prominently the last 20-30 years and become synonymous.
This and the christening which (seriously) placed holidays right on top of 'heathen' holidays has caused the Norse culture to be weakened and more or less be the same as being racist.
The few 'pure' Norse celebrations in Scandinavia are ... Summer Soltice and.. Most Scandi countries still call christmas "Yule". And that's it.

And on that note - Scandinavia is very different from the rest of Europe actually.
In the same way Russia and France are different in culture.

Has nothing "Scandinavian" happened since the Dark Ages? By this, i mean have there been any historical themes or events since the end of the Dark Ages which have had an effect on modern Scandinavian culture?

For instance, a lot of English culture is characterised from the Victorian era, from where we get the ever popular "Posh-British" stereotype from, among other things which have an effect on modern English identity. Likewise, the Italians have the Renaissance to identify with, the French have Napoleon and their Revolution...Does Scandinavia not have anything after the Dark Ages to identify with?

 

[Direwolf750]

If I remember correctly someone years ago (a lot of yours ago) tried making a universal language... as we can see from today, it was a fail and didn't work.

Happened multiple times in fact. Artificial languages never get of the ground because no one wants to learn it.

it was called logjam, or at least the latest attempt was called (as far as I know)