Magic in oblivion and skyrim-Which was better for pure mages?

[Doclector]

I've been re-watching the Harry Potter series recently, and as usual when this happens, I feel starting a mage again. Debating which elder scrolls would be best to do so on. I googled and googled and didn't find any reasonable answers. I always kind of felt myself that oblivion's magic was more actually effective (and I'm a big fan of being able to summon spooky scary skeletons) but most of skyrim's magic kind of looks and "feels" better. Oblivion also gains a bonus because the guilds are better in general, including the mage's guild. Still, can't seem to decide on my own.

So, what's your opinion?

 

[SajuukKhar]

It depends on how you look at it really.

In Oblivion, magic was treated as a "secondary" skill set, it was used solely as buff to melee weapons, which is why magic didn't take up the use of your hand like physical weapons did. From this standpoint it was GREAT for battlemages, and similar classes. Oblivion however suffered from a small range of actual physical spell effect, it was either cast on you or cast on someone else.

Skyrim on the other hand makes magic take the same priority as weapons, so you can't hold a sword and cast magic from the same hand. This brings magic up to the same importance level as melee weapons, which makes playing battlemages harder, but Skyrim introduced many more physical spell effects then Oblivion had, thus increasing what you can do with magic.

Skyrim has
-Elemental cloaks that wrap around your character, protecting you form harm.
-Sprays that spray elemental damage onto floors, creating walls that damage enemies as they pass.
-Runes that can be placed on the ground or walls as traps that explode when enemies come near.

As well as the other types of magic projectile, magic projectile + aoe, etc. etc. Oblivion had.

In the end it comes down to Oblivion was terrible unbalanced in its magic, since everyone could use it no matter the class, thus making everyone battlemages. Whereas skyrim forces you to actually play more mage like, but also gives you more effects.

TLR
-Oblivion if you like battlemaging
-Skyrim if you like normal maging

Also, if you get the Dawnguard DLC for Skyrim you can get several skeleton summons, ranging from skeleton warrior, to archers, to skeleton mages, if you want that fix.

 

[God'sFist]

I recently played oblivion as a wizard he was super powerful in that world. In lore he would be considered a god amongst the mortals. Also in oblivion if you know what you're doing you can have a mage that can fulfill all roles as stealth, warrior, healer, anything. If you decided to go pure mage you can end up more powerful than everyone in oblivion. In skyrim they make this much harder since they nerfed it to the point its just better to go stealth or warrior. If you want to do a mage in skyrim I would suggest a alteration and conjuration specialty because destruction sucks.

 

[Doclector]

It depends on how you look at it really.

In Oblivion, magic was treated as a "secondary" skill set, it was used solely as buff to melee weapons, which is why magic didn't take up the use of your hand like physical weapons did. From this standpoint it was GREAT for battlemages, and similar classes. Oblivion however suffered from a small range of actual physical spell effect, it was either cast on you or cast on someone else.

Skyrim on the other hand makes magic take the same priority as weapons, so you can't hold a sword and cast magic from the same hand. This brings magic up to the same importance level as melee weapons, which makes playing battlemages harder, but Skyrim introduced many more physical spell effects then Oblivion had, thus increasing what you can do with magic.

Skyrim has
-Elemental cloaks that wrap around your character, protecting you form harm.
-Sprays that spray elemental damage onto floors, creating walls that damage enemies as they pass.
-Runes that can be placed on the ground or walls as traps that explode when enemies come near.

As well as the other types of magic projectile, magic projectile + aoe, etc. etc. Oblivion had.

In the end it comes down to Oblivion was terrible unbalanced in its magic, since everyone could use it no matter the class, thus making everyone battlemages. Whereas skyrim forces you to actually play more mage like, but also gives you more effects.

TLR
-Oblivion if you like battlemaging
-Skyrim if you like normal maging

Also, if you get the Dawnguard DLC for Skyrim you can get several skeleton summons, ranging from skeleton warrior, to archers, to skeleton mages, if you want that fix.

Good points, I guess. And those mage cloaks look pretty cool as well as buffing your mana regen and lowering mana costs for a particular school of magic. Are the skeleton spells exclusive to vampires?

 

[Auberon]

Depends if you think new spells and effects outweigh loss of customized spells. Tricks like stacking weakness to X with X damage etc made magic one of the more potent styles, though of course most people probably double-enchanted like that.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Are the skeleton spells exclusive to vampires?

No they are not.

You just have to find the spell tomes in the Soul Cairn.

There is also a summonable flaming skeletal horse that you can ride.

 

[RJ 17]

It depends on how you look at it really.

In Oblivion, magic was treated as a "secondary" skill set, it was used solely as buff to melee weapons, which is why magic didn't take up the use of your hand like physical weapons did. From this standpoint it was GREAT for battlemages, and similar classes. Oblivion however suffered from a small range of actual physical spell effect, it was either cast on you or cast on someone else.

I have to disagree with you on this. While it is true that the aesthetics of the spells in Skyrim are much better than those in Oblivion, in terms of utility I'd say the Oblivion wins out. Why? One simple factor that was in Oblivion but was removed in Skyrim: the ability to create your own spells.

Oh the wondrous AoE balls of death you could create!

The only spells that I like more from Skyrim than Oblivion were the spray'n'pray spells since those take aiming out of the picture. That, and I will admit that the Master level destruction spells from Skyrim were frickin' awesome...especially the fire one. But overall, I'll still take spell-creation over Skyrim's spells any day.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Oh the wondrous AoE balls of death you could create!

I was talking about normal magic gameplay not

LETS MAKE LORE BREAKING SPELLS THAT COULD KILL GODS IN ONE HIT!!!!!!!

Sure, Oblivion lets you exploit more, but that takes most of the fun out of the game.

but if you want to do nothing but exploit the game then Morrowind is the best for that.

 

[RJ 17]

Oh the wondrous AoE balls of death you could create!

I was talking about normal magic gameplay not

LETS MAKE LORE BREAKING SPELLS THAT COULD KILL GODS IN ONE HIT!!!!!!!

Sure, Oblivion lets you exploit more, but that takes most of the fun out of the game.

but if you want to do nothing but exploit the game then Morrowind is the best for that.

Pretty sure the question was "which game has the better magic if you want to play a straight-up mage", not "which game has the most "realistic" magic".

 

[SajuukKhar]

]Pretty sure the question was "which game has the better magic if you want to play a straight-up mage", not "which game has the most "realistic" magic".

And skyrim lets you play the best straight up mage normally, whereas Oblivion and Morrowind focus more on cheating and exploits to make playing a straight up mage fun.

Realism has nothing to do with it, I was simply talking about actually playing the game rather then what you can do via cheats.

 

[RJ 17]

]Pretty sure the question was "which game has the better magic if you want to play a straight-up mage", not "which game has the most "realistic" magic".

And skyrim lets you play the best straight up mage normally, whereas Oblivion and Morrowind focus more on cheating and exploits to make playing a straight up mage fun.

Realism has nothing to do with it, I was simply talking about actually playing the game rather then what you can do via cheats.

I don't see how using a built in game mechanic such as spell creation is "cheating". It's not like they give these spells to you for free. The more outlandishly powerful the spell is, the more magic it costs to cast it. As such I'd argue that the spell creation actually encourages straight-up mage play because if you want to become a radically powerful wizard in your world of Oblivion, you have to focus on building your mana pool, often at the cost of your health and stamina.

 

[Llil]

Oblivion easily. Skyrim got rid of effects like Drain Life and Disintegrate, but more importantly the custom spell making. Using the right spell combinations and staves, you can make some pretty insane glass cannon builds in Oblivion. And enchanting was far more useful and versatile as well.

I was talking about normal magic gameplay not

LETS MAKE LORE BREAKING SPELLS THAT COULD KILL GODS IN ONE HIT!!!!!!!

Sure, Oblivion lets you exploit more, but that takes most of the fun out of the game.

That is the fun of the custom spellmaking. It lets you get creative and make some amazing spell combinations. I like being able to experiment with my character builds and doing stuff like giving myself a crippling weakness to magic or permanently stunted mana regeneration in exchange for enough mana to be able to cast those "lore breaking spells that could kill a god in one hit". Skyrim doesn't allow that, and it's a real shame.

 

[Nix33]

Skyrim definitely has better magic. With the removal of Mysticism magic became a whole lot more streamlined, and is no longer a secondary skill. Overall, playing Skyrim with a pure mage character is buckets more difficult than say your average bonehead warrior, but also immensely rewarding. Not to mention that I love the Mages' College quests. They're always great for immersion, and can get you higher level spell relatively early on, providing you have the gold for it, of course.

Ninja edit: And of course, you should play Skyrim primarily for the lovably insane modding community [link]{http://i.imgur.com/BkFFCUU.jpg}[/link]

 

[SajuukKhar]

That is the fun of the custom spellmaking.

But why is it fun to utterly break any semblance of RP, in an RPG-like no less, by doing so?

How does ignoring the world and its laws make it more fun or interesting to play?

I honestly dont get this mentality. The game is fun because there is no challenge or difficulty?

 

[Llil]

That is the fun of the custom spellmaking.

But why is it fun to utterly break any semblance of RP, in an RPG-like no less, by doing so?

How does ignoring the world and its laws make it more fun or interesting to play?

I honestly dont get this mentality. The game is fun because there is no challenge or difficulty?

No I like challenge and difficulty. I also like overcoming that challenge in interesting and creative ways, and there's challenge in coming up with these crazy combinations in the first place.

I don't think overpowered spell combinations break the ability to role-play either. I could be playing a mad scientist type characer who just wants to create the ultimate weapon even if it means giving himself some crippling weakness. Or I could play a magical assassin, who thinks daggers are for dumb people, and insted, he kills with his signature instant death spell combo.

The Elder Scrolls is a very high powered high magic world anyway. Why wouldn't a mage be able to become insanely powerful? There already are enemy boss characters, like necromancers and ancient wizards in some quest lines. Maybe I want to play as one of them.

 

[SajuukKhar]

The Elder Scrolls is a very high powered high magic world anyway. Why wouldn't a mage be able to become insanely powerful? There already are enemy boss characters, like necromancers and ancient wizards in some quest lines. Maybe I want to play as one of them.

Because if such powerful spells existed, they would have been made millennia ago.

The fact that no one has such spells, shows that they simply dont exist in-lore.

If killing Vivec in one hit was doable, it would have been done before Morrowind even began.

that isnbt to say powerful spells dont exist, nor that they shouldn't be able to get made, but they should be tempered with some amount of believability in the limit of their power.

Like Skyrim's master spells for example, they are stupidly OP, but also believable.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

As someone who plays a Mage-themed character (or the closest equivalent that the game's setting and lore allows) in every game that has different classes: Skyrim. When I tried a Mage in Oblivion, it was basically just unplayable. And no, don't tell me about the "create-a-spell", because a pure Mage can't survive long enough (within reason) to afford TO create any spell that's worthwhile. Basically, every battle I got into was a painful slog. I was able to win the battle, sure, but they took forever to complete. A lot of this is because Bethesda's hatred of magic-using classes is well documented [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/11041-Bethesda-Hates-Mages-12-Reasons-Magic-in-Skyrim-Sucks]. Seriously, head over to Google and type-in "Bethesda hates"; "mages" will be the second suggestion down after (for some reason) "Nintendo".

That said though, of the games listed, Skyrim has the least hate for magic. Morrowind and Oblivion saw Bethesda in this awkward phase where they were trying to compensate for Magic supposedly being "over-powered" in Daggerfall. So they made sure that if you were using magic in those two games, you were punished for it. Mana was extremely strictly limited, getting any damage out of spells was very mana-intensive, oh, and limited CCs to prevent Melee-based NPCs from getting up close and slicing through your wet-toilet-paper-for-armor. It's possible to play a mage in those games, sure, but it was just way too clumsy to be worth dealing with.

Skyrim hasn't quite perfected the balanced, but at least a pure mage character is playable without needing to bend-over backwards. Still though... our best armor does look like hobo clothes... >.>

 

[Doom972]

That is the fun of the custom spellmaking.

But why is it fun to utterly break any semblance of RP, in an RPG-like no less, by doing so?

How does ignoring the world and its laws make it more fun or interesting to play?

I honestly dont get this mentality. The game is fun because there is no challenge or difficulty?

No challenge and difficulty? Have you played Oblivion? In Oblivion, they made it so you'll get tougher enemies with each level. After level 20 or so you get to fight minotaurs, mountain lions and highwaymen who have full glass/Daedric gear. This forces players to plan ahead when developing their characters and use everything the game allows them to. After level 30 or so, the existing spells aren't that effective anymore, so you can craft new and better spells at the Arcane University. Powerful spells cost a proportionate amount of mana so it never feels like cheating. It's a part of the world as much as anything else in every TES game up until Skyrim. I found it out of character that as the Arch Mage of the College of Winterhold, I couldn't create my own spells.

 

[Llil]

Because if such powerful spells existed, they would have been made millennia ago.

The fact that no one has such spells, shows that they simply dont exist in-lore.

If killing Vivec in one hit was doable, it would have been done before Morrowind even began.

They clearly had the tools right there in the mages guild the whole time. It's their own fault they never realised you can combine a stack of 100% weakness to magic with a 1 second drain life. I have spells like that because I bothered to experiment and do some research insted or repeating the millenia old traditions.

Anyway, to me the best part in The Elder Scrolls has always been the extensive character customisation and being able to play as the kind of character I want. That's the fun part, tinkering with numbers and abilities, coming up with cool and interesting combinations, and seeing how they work in practice.