I've had people refuse to play with me for months after I use those cards to gain infinite life and deal infinite damage - somewhere around my 4th turn.
That's not even the meanest deck I have. I have a crueler deck - though it has some banned cards in it - the infinite elf elf deck is nice and legal. The cruel deck? I once won the game before the game began, by playing the following trick in response to my opponent's attempt to begin their main phase:
I now have 2 mana and 4 cards in hand.
I now have UB mana.
I now have UBBBBB mana and 2 cards in hand.
To sum up: At the beginning of each player's turn, they must pay (4)+R mana or lose the game. If I'm the last player who must do this, I've already won by the time I would have paid. This combo usually comes out by turn 2, but once happened before anyone's first turn had even started. As I said, though, this deck includes some illegal cards (like Jeweled Bird to make the deck smaller) so it doesn't see as much play as my notorious elf deck.
Now that is valid. May I ask how you got infinite/infinite creatures? They way I used to do it was with Chimeras/Enduring Renewal/Ornithoptors and an altar of some kind that let me sacrifice my ornithoptor for mana.
I've had people refuse to play with me for months after I use those cards to gain infinite life and deal infinite damage - somewhere around my 4th turn.
That's not even the meanest deck I have. I have a crueler deck - though it has some banned cards in it - the infinite elf elf deck is nice and legal. The cruel deck? I once won the game before the game began, by playing the following trick in response to my opponent's attempt to begin their main phase:
I now have 2 mana and 4 cards in hand.
I now have UB mana.
I now have UBBBBB mana and 2 cards in hand.
To sum up: At the beginning of each player's turn, they must pay (4)+R mana or lose the game. If I'm the last player who must do this, I've already won by the time I would have paid. This combo usually comes out by turn 2, but once happened before anyone's first turn had even started. As I said, though, this deck includes some illegal cards (like Jeweled Bird to make the deck smaller) so it doesn't see as much play as my notorious elf deck.
I'm new to magic, but I have to say I prefer blue and light as a secondary, I like the idea of "Slow and Steady" and am pretty careful with other things as well...
Although this deviates a bit from the topic at hand, I haven't really played much magic games, and I was wondering, what happens if you don't draw a land card in your first hand? I mean, the one (very short) time I did play, I only drew one island card, used that, and the next card I drew wasn't any land card either, since my hand was full and I had nothing I could summon, I really couldn't do anything, couldn't draw another card, couldn't summon monsters, none of that.
So, is there some way in the rules to get around this or what?
Are you saying that you didn't draw a card each turn because you already had 7 cards in your hand? If that is the case then you can have more than 7 cards in your hand, however if you have more than 7 cards in your hand during your end phase you then discard cards from your hand until you only have 7 cards in your hand.
If this is not what you are saying the please disregard the above.
On topic: I prefer Blue/Black or Blue/White. I like the control of Blue, the destruction of Black and something of White. Not really sure what I like about White but it works well with Blue.
I'm new to magic, but I have to say I prefer blue and light as a secondary, I like the idea of "Slow and Steady" and am pretty careful with other things as well...
Although this deviates a bit from the topic at hand, I haven't really played much magic games, and I was wondering, what happens if you don't draw a land card in your first hand? I mean, the one (very short) time I did play, I only drew one island card, used that, and the next card I drew wasn't any land card either, since my hand was full and I had nothing I could summon, I really couldn't do anything, couldn't draw another card, couldn't summon monsters, none of that.
So, is there some way in the rules to get around this or what?
Are you saying that you didn't draw a card each turn because you already had 7 cards in your hand? If that is the case then you can have more than 7 cards in your hand, however if you have more than 7 cards in your hand during your end phase you then discard cards from your hand until you only have 7 cards in your hand.
If this is not what you are saying the please disregard the above.
On topic: I prefer Blue/Black or Blue/White. I like the control of Blue, the destruction of Black and something of White. Not really sure what I like about White but it works well with Blue.
Just Mulligan it. Mulligan is when you want a new starting hand. You shuffle the hand back into your deck then draw a new one but with one less card then last time.
Any ways this shouldn't happen if you have a proper deck. All decks should be 40% lands. So make it 2 out of every 5 cards.
Oh it can and does happen. Most of my decks have two spells every land and it still happens. In which case I just reshuffle without the one less card thing as I've always been under the impression that your starting hand must have at least one land. But to avoid that happening in the first place all you need to do is regularly mana shuffle.
Chamale said:
My best deck, by far, is green/blue, because those are the colours of its Presence of Gond/Intruder Alarm combo.
You know you can't do that right? Untapping a creature doesn't allow it to use its ability again. It's just for defensive purposes so even if that creature has attacked it can still defend. So as an example I attack and use abilities with all my creatures and then cast vitalize which untaps all creatures under my control. That however doesn't mean I can use them again in my turn, only that I can still defend with them despite using them in my turn.
Using your version of the rules a Serra's Angel could attack an infinite number of times.
I've had people refuse to play with me for months after I use those cards to gain infinite life and deal infinite damage - somewhere around my 4th turn.
That's not even the meanest deck I have. I have a crueler deck - though it has some banned cards in it - the infinite elf elf deck is nice and legal. The cruel deck? I once won the game before the game began, by playing the following trick in response to my opponent's attempt to begin their main phase:
I now have 2 mana and 4 cards in hand.
I now have UB mana.
I now have UBBBBB mana and 2 cards in hand.
To sum up: At the beginning of each player's turn, they must pay (4)+R mana or lose the game. If I'm the last player who must do this, I've already won by the time I would have paid. This combo usually comes out by turn 2, but once happened before anyone's first turn had even started. As I said, though, this deck includes some illegal cards (like Jeweled Bird to make the deck smaller) so it doesn't see as much play as my notorious elf deck.
SL33TBL1ND said:
You know you can't do that right? Untapping a creature doesn't allow it to use its ability again. It's just for defensive purposes so even if that creature has attacked it can still defend. So as an example I attack and use abilities with all my creatures and then cast vitalize which untaps all creatures under my control. That however doesn't mean I can use them again in my turn, only that I can still defend with them despite using them in my turn.
Using your version of the rules a Serra's Angel could attack an infinite number of times.
Attacking is not a tap ability. There is normally only one combat phase per turn, meaning creatures can only attack once. Tap abilities, however, can be played as often as you like at any time unless otherwise specified.
In fact, there's a combo that lets a player attack an infinite number of times with Serra Angel.
If you control 2 Mountains and 3 other basic Lands, the Serra Angel will untap all of your lands every time it attacks, which lets you pay for Aggravated Assault's ability and enables another attack.
That combo only works because Aggravated Assault specifically allows a second combat phase. Let me give you another example.
I have a Royal Assassin which can tap to kill any tapped creature. Let's say my opponent has two creatures tapped. I can't tap to kill one creature then untap my Assassin through, as per my previous example, vitalize to kill the other creature. I've already used the assassin that turn, the reason those untap spells exist is not for getting an infinite number of effects from a creature. It's so they can still defend even if they've done something in your turn.
I may be wrong, but I've never seen anyone maintain the position you are.
Plains and Forest. And, every single one of my creatures has infect, so battles are usually of attrition, which I'm fine with. I enjoy throwing countless 1/1 creatures at my opponent, laughing as his best cards are sent to the discard pile faster than he can plonk down poison counters. Oh and forest gives me some pretty nifty health regen cards, which are always useful.
Llanowar Elves and, since it's Black/Green, Eyeblight's Ending. There are some really good Elves, but I find that those 2 are my favourites for a solid Elf deck.
SL33TBL1ND said:
Now that is valid. May I ask how you got infinite/infinite creatures? They way I used to do it was with Chimeras/Enduring Renewal/Ornithoptors and an altar of some kind that let me sacrifice my ornithoptor for mana.
My favourite infinite mana combo is with Bloom Tender and Freed From the Real.
Just 2 cheap cards to give you infinite green mana. Remember, you can tap a creature an infinite number of times, you're just not allowed to attack with a creature an infinite number of times.
Once you have unlimited mana, there are many ways to make a creature with unlimited power and toughness. Ivy Elemental, for example, costs (X)+G to cast and has power/toughness of X/X. Or, look at this thing:
Every time my elfspam deck made an elf, all creatures untap... So my opponent used that opportunity to tap this in response every time, giving it +1/+1 until end of turn for every elf I made. I was careful to only spawn elves during my turn, lest my opponent attack with a 1,000,000,000/1,000,000,000 creature and kill a billion of my elves.
I'm new to magic, but I have to say I prefer blue and light as a secondary, I like the idea of "Slow and Steady" and am pretty careful with other things as well...
Although this deviates a bit from the topic at hand, I haven't really played much magic games, and I was wondering, what happens if you don't draw a land card in your first hand? I mean, the one (very short) time I did play, I only drew one island card, used that, and the next card I drew wasn't any land card either, since my hand was full and I had nothing I could summon, I really couldn't do anything, couldn't draw another card, couldn't summon monsters, none of that.
So, is there some way in the rules to get around this or what?
Are you saying that you didn't draw a card each turn because you already had 7 cards in your hand? If that is the case then you can have more than 7 cards in your hand, however if you have more than 7 cards in your hand during your end phase you then discard cards from your hand until you only have 7 cards in your hand.
If this is not what you are saying the please disregard the above.
On topic: I prefer Blue/Black or Blue/White. I like the control of Blue, the destruction of Black and something of White. Not really sure what I like about White but it works well with Blue.
Just Mulligan it. Mulligan is when you want a new starting hand. You shuffle the hand back into your deck then draw a new one but with one less card then last time.
Any ways this shouldn't happen if you have a proper deck. All decks should be 40% lands. So make it 2 out of every 5 cards.
I'm new to magic, but I have to say I prefer blue and light as a secondary, I like the idea of "Slow and Steady" and am pretty careful with other things as well...
Although this deviates a bit from the topic at hand, I haven't really played much magic games, and I was wondering, what happens if you don't draw a land card in your first hand? I mean, the one (very short) time I did play, I only drew one island card, used that, and the next card I drew wasn't any land card either, since my hand was full and I had nothing I could summon, I really couldn't do anything, couldn't draw another card, couldn't summon monsters, none of that.
So, is there some way in the rules to get around this or what?
Are you saying that you didn't draw a card each turn because you already had 7 cards in your hand? If that is the case then you can have more than 7 cards in your hand, however if you have more than 7 cards in your hand during your end phase you then discard cards from your hand until you only have 7 cards in your hand.
If this is not what you are saying the please disregard the above.
On topic: I prefer Blue/Black or Blue/White. I like the control of Blue, the destruction of Black and something of White. Not really sure what I like about White but it works well with Blue.
I'm new to magic, but I have to say I prefer blue and light as a secondary, I like the idea of "Slow and Steady" and am pretty careful with other things as well...
Although this deviates a bit from the topic at hand, I haven't really played much magic games, and I was wondering, what happens if you don't draw a land card in your first hand? I mean, the one (very short) time I did play, I only drew one island card, used that, and the next card I drew wasn't any land card either, since my hand was full and I had nothing I could summon, I really couldn't do anything, couldn't draw another card, couldn't summon monsters, none of that.
So, is there some way in the rules to get around this or what?
Are you saying that you didn't draw a card each turn because you already had 7 cards in your hand? If that is the case then you can have more than 7 cards in your hand, however if you have more than 7 cards in your hand during your end phase you then discard cards from your hand until you only have 7 cards in your hand.
If this is not what you are saying the please disregard the above.
On topic: I prefer Blue/Black or Blue/White. I like the control of Blue, the destruction of Black and something of White. Not really sure what I like about White but it works well with Blue.
Just Mulligan it. Mulligan is when you want a new starting hand. You shuffle the hand back into your deck then draw a new one but with one less card then last time.
Any ways this shouldn't happen if you have a proper deck. All decks should be 40% lands. So make it 2 out of every 5 cards.
Oh it can and does happen. Most of my decks have two spells every land and it still happens. In which case I just reshuffle without the one less card thing as I've always been under the impression that your starting hand must have at least one land. But to avoid that happening in the first place all you need to do is regularly mana shuffle.
Chamale said:
My best deck, by far, is green/blue, because those are the colours of its Presence of Gond/Intruder Alarm combo.
You know you can't do that right? Untapping a creature doesn't allow it to use its ability again. It's just for defensive purposes so even if that creature has attacked it can still defend. So as an example I attack and use abilities with all my creatures and then cast vitalize which untaps all creatures under my control. That however doesn't mean I can use them again in my turn, only that I can still defend with them despite using them in my turn.
Using your version of the rules a Serra's Angel could attack an infinite number of times.
No they couldn't, they could attack and then defend, not attack or use an ability twice. All Vigilance does is allow creatures who have attacked to both defend and use abilities in your opponent's turn, not attack twice, unless you have a card that specifically allows for a second combat phase as Chamale so helpfully posted.
Chamale said:
Shakaar9267 said:
I just got into magic in the last 3 weeks. My choice is the Black/Green Elf deck. It was as close to the 'Drow' as I could get.
Does anybody know any 'need-to-have' cards for a Elf deck?
Llanowar Elves and, since it's Black/Green, Eyeblight's Ending. There are some really good Elves, but I find that those 2 are my favourites for a solid Elf deck.
SL33TBL1ND said:
Now that is valid. May I ask how you got infinite/infinite creatures? They way I used to do it was with Chimeras/Enduring Renewal/Ornithoptors and an altar of some kind that let me sacrifice my ornithoptor for mana.
My favourite infinite mana combo is with Bloom Tender and Freed From the Real.
Just 2 cheap cards to give you infinite green mana. Remember, you can tap a creature an infinite number of times, you're just not allowed to attack with a creature an infinite number of times.
Once you have unlimited mana, there are many ways to make a creature with unlimited power and toughness. Ivy Elemental, for example, costs (X)+G to cast and has power/toughness of X/X. Or, look at this thing:
Every time my elfspam deck made an elf, all creatures untap... So my opponent used that opportunity to tap this in response every time, giving it +1/+1 until end of turn for every elf I made. I was careful to only spawn elves during my turn, lest my opponent attack with a 1,000,000,000/1,000,000,000 creature and kill a billion of my elves.
That's ridiculous and obviously not interpreting the rules in the way they were intended, you could probably lawyer your way through that, but in an official tourney I think you'd be thrown out. The lodestone would work though because you're not tapping the +1/+1 artefact for their ability but because the card says yo- This is getting confusing and hard to explain through text alone, I'll just leave you to your version of the rules ok?
Half green and half white. I use the white to hold me over until I can pull out my show stopper greens. Of course...that is when I play; haven't touched the game in a couple years.
Every time my elfspam deck made an elf, all creatures untap... So my opponent used that opportunity to tap this in response every time, giving it +1/+1 until end of turn for every elf I made. I was careful to only spawn elves during my turn, lest my opponent attack with a 1,000,000,000/1,000,000,000 creature and kill a billion of my elves.
At that point, do the numbers really matter anymore? Basically, you can make infinite elves, and he can power his monster to infinity. If he attacks, isn't it stalemate unless something interferes?
That combo only works because Aggravated Assault specifically allows a second combat phase. Let me give you another example.
I have a Royal Assassin which can tap to kill any tapped creature. Let's say my opponent has two creatures tapped. I can't tap to kill one creature then untap my Assassin through, as per my previous example, vitalize to kill the other creature. I've already used the assassin that turn, the reason those untap spells exist is not for getting an infinite number of effects from a creature. It's so they can still defend even if they've done something in your turn.
I may be wrong, but I've never seen anyone maintain the position you are.
In fact, spells like Vitalize do let you get 1 more kill from a Royal Assassin, or 1 extra mana from Birds of Paradise. I'm quite sure about this.
Here's my favourite example: Goblin Sharpshooter [http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb41]. That link goes to an old article about the Sharpshooter, a simple 1/1 creature with "Tap: Deals 1 damage to target creature" and "Whenever a creature goes into a graveyard from play, untap Goblin Sharpshooter." I'm no Magic expert, but that article has a certified expert talking about how the Goblin Sharpshooter can activate its tap ability many times per turn as long as many creatures are going into graveyards.
XxRyanxX said:
I call my Deck "Blazing Wind" because it's fire and most of it is flying creatures. I know the title of my deck may sound cheesy of course but it has done really well. It's weakness though is mana - because sometimes (since I have 28 mana cards including 2 that helps me summon out mana) I am ether mana flooded or mana drained. It's really bad when you rely on it so much. Hope this inspires people to get into Magic. I use to question Magic on how it could possibly be fun. But, I tried out out and now a big fan of it when playing against/with Friends
Care to post your deck list? I had a nice white/black aggro deck that ran into a lot of mana problems. There are some overlooked cards in red and white that deal with mana problems and damage (who'd have thought white gets some nice damage and destruction spells?)
Ordinaryundone said:
Chamale said:
Every time my elfspam deck made an elf, all creatures untap... So my opponent used that opportunity to tap this in response every time, giving it +1/+1 until end of turn for every elf I made. I was careful to only spawn elves during my turn, lest my opponent attack with a 1,000,000,000/1,000,000,000 creature and kill a billion of my elves.
At that point, do the numbers really matter anymore? Basically, you can make infinite elves, and he can power his monster to infinity. If he attacks, isn't it stalemate unless something interferes?
His effect lasts until end of turn, whereas my elves stay on the table until next turn. I simply had to wait until my next turn and attack, while his creature was too small to be useful by the time his turn came around. Also, a creature can normally only block one creature, so my billion elves would go right through a defense that consisted of a single large creature blocking one thing.
I have seen situations where each player has unlimited mana at the ready, and they're saying things like "I hit you for a trillion damage!" and "In response, I gain a million trillion life!" Eventually, one player breaks the stalemate somehow, and his opponent is able to say, "I hit you for a billion trillion damage!" That's the reason you're technically not allowed to gain infinite life in Magic - no matter how high your life gets, someone else can kill you with an unlimited-damage fireball.
I currently have two completed decks. A Naya cat deck and a four color Ally deck. I actually prefer the colors of Naya myself though I do really like all five colors. I love getting out an equipped Kemba and an equipped Raksha. So much damage heh.
No they couldn't, they could attack and then defend, not attack or use an ability twice. All Vigilance does is allow creatures who have attacked to both defend and use abilities in your opponent's turn, not attack twice, unless you have a card that specifically allows for a second combat phase as Chamale so helpfully posted.
A fact I'm fully aware of. I was merely illustrating how broken that interpenetration of the rules would be.
SL33TBL1ND said:
That's ridiculous and obviously not interpreting the rules in the way they were intended, you could probably lawyer your way through that, but in an official tourney I think you'd be thrown out.
There are some infinite creature engines out there. The only one I remember off hand was a Sliver Queen combo with multiple copies of doubling season and something that let your slivers either tap to generate mana or sacrifice for mana (I forget which) combined with Coat of Arms, but that's still at least five cards, and most five card combos are freakin' scary to begin with.
EDIT: Then again Slivers are fuckin' scary as well...
That combo only works because Aggravated Assault specifically allows a second combat phase. Let me give you another example.
I have a Royal Assassin which can tap to kill any tapped creature. Let's say my opponent has two creatures tapped. I can't tap to kill one creature then untap my Assassin through, as per my previous example, vitalize to kill the other creature. I've already used the assassin that turn, the reason those untap spells exist is not for getting an infinite number of effects from a creature. It's so they can still defend even if they've done something in your turn.
I may be wrong, but I've never seen anyone maintain the position you are.
In fact, spells like Vitalize do let you get 1 more kill from a Royal Assassin, or 1 extra mana from Birds of Paradise. I'm quite sure about this.
Here's my favourite example: Goblin Sharpshooter [http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb41]. That link goes to an old article about the Sharpshooter, a simple 1/1 creature with "Tap: Deals 1 damage to target creature" and "Whenever a creature goes into a graveyard from play, untap Goblin Sharpshooter." I'm no Magic expert, but that article has a certified expert talking about how the Goblin Sharpshooter can activate its tap ability many times per turn as long as many creatures are going into graveyards.
XxRyanxX said:
I call my Deck "Blazing Wind" because it's fire and most of it is flying creatures. I know the title of my deck may sound cheesy of course but it has done really well. It's weakness though is mana - because sometimes (since I have 28 mana cards including 2 that helps me summon out mana) I am ether mana flooded or mana drained. It's really bad when you rely on it so much. Hope this inspires people to get into Magic. I use to question Magic on how it could possibly be fun. But, I tried out out and now a big fan of it when playing against/with Friends
Care to post your deck list? I had a nice white/black aggro deck that ran into a lot of mana problems. There are some overlooked cards in red and white that deal with mana problems and damage (who'd have thought white gets some nice damage and destruction spells?)
Well shit, that suddenly makes a friends Scrib Nibblers deck a shit load more powerful. To be fair I have always played a set of house rules that my family came up with to prevent people pulling the bullshit you've detailed, I guess this rule is one of our house ones and not an official one and I didn't know. Thanks for the enlightening experience.
Starke said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
No they couldn't, they could attack and then defend, not attack or use an ability twice. All Vigilance does is allow creatures who have attacked to both defend and use abilities in your opponent's turn, not attack twice, unless you have a card that specifically allows for a second combat phase as Chamale so helpfully posted.
A fact I'm fully aware of. I was merely illustrating how broken that interpenetration of the rules would be.
SL33TBL1ND said:
That's ridiculous and obviously not interpreting the rules in the way they were intended, you could probably lawyer your way through that, but in an official tourney I think you'd be thrown out.
There are some infinite creature engines out there. The only one I remember off hand was a Sliver Queen combo with multiple copies of doubling season and something that let your slivers either tap to generate mana or sacrifice for mana (I forget which) combined with Coat of Arms, but that's still at least five cards, and most five card combos are freakin' scary to begin with.
I'm currently trying to get back into Magic with a Red/Green/White deck. Quick summon power houses fueled by elves and Mayael the Anima. I still need some cards for it to be fully functional, but I'm getting there.
And I have a deck from long, long ago that I've kept. There have been many a time I have Fireballed and Meteored the entire physical cosmos with that deck and have gained more life than I could ever possibly need with Alabaster Potion. Along with the deck's namesake...Enduring Renewal.
From The Comprehensive Rules of Magic: The Gathering, February 2011:
Rule 714.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can't include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.
Example: A player controls a creature enchanted by Presence of Gond, which grants the creature the ability "{T}: Put a 1/1 green Elf Warrior creature token onto the battlefield," and another player controls Intruder Alarm, which reads, in part, "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, untap all creatures." When the player has priority, he may suggest "I'll create a million tokens," indicating the sequence of activating the creature's ability, all players passing priority, letting the creature's ability resolve and put a token onto the battlefield (which causes Intruder Alarm's ability to trigger), Intruder Alarm's controller putting that triggered ability on the stack, all players passing priority, Intruder Alarm's triggered ability resolving, all players passing priority until the player proposing the shortcut has priority, and repeating that sequence 999,999 more times, ending just after the last token-creating ability resolves.
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