Major Changes In Youtube Involving Let's Players

[Mid Boss]

That's right! Let's stop paying Football, basketball, hockey, etc etc players. Sports are a hobby. It's incredibly greedy for those people to expect compensation for it too! Any real players will keep playing even when the money stops.

There are professional gamers, e sports and all the rest of it which will continue to operate as usual. This does not affect them. Even if it did perhaps you're not familiar with the likes of Rugby Union where only a decade or so ago it finally became professional. Your analogy is terrible. LPers are not cyberathletes
(for want of a better word).

Actually found out how much these LPers are making today, some moderately popular guy on YouTube was taking home £3500 every month for mil or two views, that's way more than the people who made the game. It's totally out of whack and completely understandable why developers and publishers might be a little cheesed off. If they are greedy, then LPers must be even more so. Kicking up a fuss about having their pay reduced to something line with what they do, tsk.

Ok, let lay this out for you. How many Let's Players have more than a million subscribers? How many have less than a hundred? No, you're not going to throw up some videos and retire. It takes a lot of work produce quality let's play videos. You have to do retakes and editing all of which happen behind the scenes and you have to keep producing videos on a daily basis to keep people's interest. It's a full time job and you have to be something special to stand out from the crowds. For every Let's Player that gets rich there's a thousand no one's ever heard of. So, yes, my analogy holds up.

"Having their pay reduced to something in line with what they do" There's a LOT of fucking people that this needs to happen to. Least of all, Let's Players. The average American CEO makes between 200 to 300 times more than the average worker of his own company and they barely work 20 hours a week. Many professional athletes make more than the president does. Oh, but Let's Players are where we draw the line! LOL Yeah.

 

[shrekfan246]

Answer me this, why do the LP's have the right to make money of someone elses work?

Because they have to put in endless amounts of their own work as well.

Answer the opposite without using the "Well, the publisher produced the game!" card. Why don't LPers have the right to make money off of spending forty hours a week or more producing content to be distributed through Youtube? Why don't they have the right to make money off of something that essentially becomes a job, with a specific schedule and its own quirks and eccentricities and extra costs?

And why the hell are so many people against the idea of something like LPing becoming a job, anyway? Especially on a website like this one, unless it's all just because of bitterness and jealousy because they can't be paid to play games, you'd figure people would be all over alternative forms of income, but no, profiting off of video games is suddenly off-limits because of reasons.

 

[Mid Boss]

And why the hell are so many people against the idea of something like LPing becoming a job, anyway? Especially on a website like this one, unless it's all just because of bitterness and jealousy because they can't be paid to play games, you'd figure people would be all over alternative forms of income, but no, profiting off of video games is suddenly off-limits because of reasons.

Pretty much this. People think that anyone can do it with a minimum amount of work because they have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. The vast majority of people know that, just because you can throw a football, doesn't mean you should be out there making million because they know it's a lot of hard work and dedication.

But, because you don't see the time and work that goes into making a quality let's play video, people don't make this distinction with let's players. So they just assume these people "got lucky" without ever having to really work which creates bitterness and envy.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

This doesn't really affect me one way or another, since I don't watch Let's Plays. However, I find it interesting if Youtube is really starting to push its luck with this along with the whole Google+ malarkey and charging for specific channels. Ho satisfying it would be to see all the popular youtubers move to other sites like Blip or Vimeo and leave the massive corporate conglomerate wallowing in dust with only cat videos left to itself.

 

[deth2munkies]

I don't understand why these companies even care if someone is making money with videos of their games. It's not like they're taking away their profit. It's just corporate douchebaggery.

Agreed,it's like they use copy-right claims to intentionally be dicks when those companies have little to gain from doing so.

How would you feel if you spent a couple years of your life writing a novel, then some dick on Youtube reads the entire thing verbatim, makes fun of it, then makes money off of it.

Now some people that may have been interested won't buy your book because they know what happens, and they think it (and you) are stupid because some dick on Youtube said it and his opinions must be correct.

That's the logic there. It's not 100% correct, but it's still pretty plausible to me. Sure, some people may see the game and say "Sure, I want to try that," but most people won't, especially for story based games. I watched a LP of the story of Starcraft: Heart of the Swarm because I wanted to know what happened. Didn't buy the game, but don't feel the need to anymore. Same thing with The Last of Us (though I don't have a PS3 so...). No need to buy them.

I and people like me are the reason why game companies are doing this, and I can totally sympathize with them.

EDIT: Just want to add, this goes double for folks like Telltale, where the gameplay isn't the point, it's the story. If you watch an exhaustive LP of The Walking Dead (where they show all routes), there's literally no point to playing the game.

 

[DSK-]

1: What do you think of this sudden change happening next year?

# It doesn't surprise me, particularly with the Google+ crap that was forced. I'm all for making things better, and have over the last couple of years bent to changes that YouTube has made, but I abhor the Google+ crap. I don't want to change my channel's name to my Google+ account, because then it would break the names policy and the channel, if changed to something else, wouldn't match the content on there. It's fucking stupid. And I can't comment on videos or people who ask me questions on videos because I refuse to "update" my channel to my Google+ name - and I don't even want a Google+ account in the first damn place


2: Are you worried about your favorite Let's Player's future?

# I don't really watch Let's Plays, but I do watch an awful lot of Starcraft 2 VODS and competitive matches & commentaries. I'm also rather partial to Robbaz.


3: Do You Think This should have happened a long time ago, and are proud of Youtube's Decision?

# I think this was inevitable, because money makes the world go round, but I don't think it's a particularly brilliant idea. This decision does, however, make more sense than the Google+ implementation, though


4: Anyone think that Video Game Crash is going to happen due to this being one of the factors?

# I have no idea what the/a "Video Game Crash" is :/


5: Which Let's Players do you think would be fine with this outcome? Which ones do you think would not be?

# I don't know.


6: Freestlye Final Thoughts - Your take on this with a good conclusion?
===================================================================

# I'm concerned for my own channel, which is basically a massive archive of over 1000 videos from a formerly competitive game that I've been downloading replays from, recording and then processing, before uploading to youtube. Due to the fact that these replays are in the public domain, I believe I and others who record content from replays (like Quake, Starcraft, etc) are somewhat safe (though I won't kid myself).

I'm just concerned that all those videos will get taken down and that all my years' hardwork will have gone down the toilet

tl;dr

I'm not surprised by this news, but it doesn't excatly make me all warm and fuzzy inside either.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

Having never watched a lets play video i find myself completely uncaring on this subject. People were making money from someone elses work and the makers decided to stop them...seems fair enough to me. It's all just another part in trying to force people to pay more money for gaming and since i pay almost nothing to game in the first place it doesn't bother me in the slightest...i'm not stupid enough to be a victim

 

[GoaThief]

Ok, let lay this out for you. How many Let's Players have more than a million subscribers?

I said VIEWS, not subscribers. Big difference.

"So, yes, my analogy holds up."

No, it doesn't at all. There are direct comparisons to sportsmen in the gaming world, and LPers aren't them. It's pretty obvious and until you can think and argue logically then I have little more to say to you.

This mentality of "If he/she makes more than me then they need to suffer" is incredibly toxic and petty.

Lolage!

I'd say that attributing absolute untruths and ad hominems to an individual who holds a different opinion is demonstrably toxic. Please try harder.

And why the hell are so many people against the idea of something like LPing becoming a job, anyway? Especially on a website like this one, unless it's all just because of bitterness and jealousy because they can't be paid to play games, you'd figure people would be all over alternative forms of income, but no, profiting off of video games is suddenly off-limits because of reasons.

Pretty much this. People think that anyone can do it with a minimum amount of work because they have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

Of course they're entitled to something for the input they give - not many have argued LPers should receive nothing. However there are definite issues with ownership, rights to use material and the like. Copyright is vital and is not an inherently bad thing. When more and more people are going, "nah, I'll just watch a LP instead" as entire games are being recorded and played back to millions then there are definite issues that need to be addressed.

Jealousy is a ridiculous argument and doesn't come into it for the vast majority of people. I like many others don't really care as much as you'd like to think. Speaking of professions, my background is in media and professional audio so I know exactly how much work goes into LPs and overall it's not a huge amount. Sorry, but that's the truth.

 

[deth2munkies]

I don't understand why these companies even care if someone is making money with videos of their games. It's not like they're taking away their profit. It's just corporate douchebaggery.

Agreed,it's like they use copy-right claims to intentionally be dicks when those companies have little to gain from doing so.

How would you feel if you spent a couple years of your life writing a novel, then some dick on Youtube reads the entire thing verbatim, makes fun of it, then makes money off of it.

Now some people that may have been interested won't buy your book because they know what happens, and they think it (and you) are stupid because some dick on Youtube said it and his opinions must be correct.

That's the logic there. It's not 100% correct, but it's still pretty plausible to me. Sure, some people may see the game and say "Sure, I want to try that," but most people won't, especially for story based games. I watched a LP of the story of Starcraft: Heart of the Swarm because I wanted to know what happened. Didn't buy the game, but don't feel the need to anymore. Same thing with The Last of Us (though I don't have a PS3 so...). No need to buy them.

I and people like me are the reason why game companies are doing this, and I can totally sympathize with them.

EDIT: Just want to add, this goes double for folks like Telltale, where the gameplay isn't the point, it's the story. If you watch an exhaustive LP of The Walking Dead (where they show all routes), there's literally no point to playing the game.

Except copy right laws are freaking abused by near everyone including game companies.Also sympathy for multi million dollar companies....... really?This isn't hurting them at all and in fact LPs are essentially free advertising.

Ignoring everything I say and restating your own proposition is no way to have a conversation.

That said, you obviously don't know the people who make these games. It's really easy to say "ZOMG BIG CORPORATIONS GRUBBING MONEY" and forget that there's a lot of good individual people that work there and do their jobs brilliantly. I knew a few people at Gearbox and Timegate because I live in Texas where they run things. They're awesome people. In the immediate future, their bonuses are contingent on how well their games do, in the long term, their jobs are.

So don't fucking tell me that sales don't matter and that the only people affected are faceless corporations, because it only betrays your utter ignorance to the truth.

 

[2xDouble]

Answer me this, why do the LP's have the right to make money of someone else's work?

Why do news casters have the right to make money telling other people's stories?
Why do art galleries have the right to make money displaying other people's paintings and sculptures?
Why do museums have the right to make money displaying other people's discoveries?
Why do libraries have the right to make money renting out other people's books?
Why do television networks have the right to make money showing other people's acting and editing work?
Why do retail stores have the right to make money selling other people's products?
Why do theater houses have the right to make money showing other people's plays or movies?
Why do chefs have the right to make money cooking other people's produce?
Why do restaurants and wait staff have the right to make money serving other people's cooking?
Why do crafters have the right to make money using other people's yarn/stickers/cloth/knives/etc.?
Why do musicians have the right to make money using other people's instruments?
Why do radio stations have the right to make money playing other people's songs?
etc., etc...

...because they're each selling their own quality work, not someone else's. That's what "derivative work" means; they aren't selling the same product. Sadly, some corporations lump "derivative work" together with "plagiarism" and "cheap knock-offs", which is an understandable concern, but hardly applicable.


Captcha: "Worth Overdoing." How appropriate.

 

[Mid Boss]

Speaking of professions, my background is in media and professional audio so I know exactly how much work goes into LPs and overall it's not a huge amount. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Really!? Then DO IT! Stop sitting bitching about how much money these let's play people are making and go make that fortune! You'll put a good 10 hours a day in for the first two or three years and, if you get lucky, you'll break a hundred subscribers. All this money for something you do anyway with a minimal labor investment there's not reason why you aren't doing this. There are many indie companies that are fine with monetized let's plays so you have no excuse what so ever.

Put your money where your mouth is. Come on. Do it.

 

[GoaThief]

Stop sitting bitching about how much money these let's play people are making

The only person in this conversation who's bitching and raging is you over someone who has a different opinion in a regular discussion.

There are many indie companies that are fine with monetized let's plays so you have no excuse what so ever.

Put your money where your mouth is. Come on. Do it.

There's that fuzzy logic thing again, sort it out.

There are a million reasons as to why I and many others are not making LPs. It's a pretty immature argument and proposition.

I don't understand why these companies even care if someone is making money with videos of their games. It's not like they're taking away their profit. It's just corporate douchebaggery.

Agreed,it's like they use copy-right claims to intentionally be dicks when those companies have little to gain from doing so.

How would you feel if you spent a couple years of your life writing a novel, then some dick on Youtube reads the entire thing verbatim, makes fun of it, then makes money off of it.

Now some people that may have been interested won't buy your book because they know what happens, and they think it (and you) are stupid because some dick on Youtube said it and his opinions must be correct.

That's the logic there. It's not 100% correct, but it's still pretty plausible to me. Sure, some people may see the game and say "Sure, I want to try that," but most people won't, especially for story based games. I watched a LP of the story of Starcraft: Heart of the Swarm because I wanted to know what happened. Didn't buy the game, but don't feel the need to anymore. Same thing with The Last of Us (though I don't have a PS3 so...). No need to buy them.

I and people like me are the reason why game companies are doing this, and I can totally sympathize with them.

EDIT: Just want to add, this goes double for folks like Telltale, where the gameplay isn't the point, it's the story. If you watch an exhaustive LP of The Walking Dead (where they show all routes), there's literally no point to playing the game.

Except copy right laws are freaking abused by near everyone including game companies.Also sympathy for multi million dollar companies....... really?This isn't hurting them at all and in fact LPs are essentially free advertising.

Ignoring everything I say and restating your own proposition is no way to have a conversation.

That said, you obviously don't know the people who make these games. It's really easy to say "ZOMG BIG CORPORATIONS GRUBBING MONEY" and forget that there's a lot of good individual people that work there and do their jobs brilliantly. I knew a few people at Gearbox and Timegate because I live in Texas where they run things. They're awesome people. In the immediate future, their bonuses are contingent on how well their games do, in the long term, their jobs are.

So don't fucking tell me that sales don't matter and that the only people affected are faceless corporations, because it only betrays your utter ignorance to the truth.

The cold hard truth is those people are just cogs in the machine that is a corporation and most corporations only want one thing:Money.They don't give a damn what you and I think of them so having sympathy for a corporation is pointless.Also I'm ignorant because I know how corporations like to put the screws on people if they so much as smell a money making opportunity?Lol whatever you say.Can you tell how much money these "poor" companies are losing because of Let's Players?

You are either a 13-16 year old guy who has wacko far left parents or have been playing way too much Shadowrun (or both).

Corporations are legal entities that are pretty much required to grow beyond a certain point for any company. They give unprecedented access to capital to do great things, in return for being responsible to their shareholders. If all corporations ceased to exist tomorrow and were banned, our country would have 0 economy. Themis Media Corporation owns The Escapist, the website you're posting on. The individuals here, contributors, mods, editors, video content producers, etc. all work their asses off for a paycheck cut by a corporation, just like 90% of the working world.

In your glorious struggle to bring down "the man", all you're doing is hurting individual people. The fallacious argument implied in the "cogs in a machine" statement is that those individuals would be better off not working for a corporation, when the reverse is probably true. Less consistency in pay, less resources, and more individual responsibility would crush the vast majority of people who tried to strike out on their own. Those that succeed, form their own corporations, because that's how it works.

If you want to live in some sort of anarcho-communist paradise where everyone just decides to work for free for everyone else's benefit out of sheer altruism, keep dreaming.

You and I probably would agree on the idea that copyright law, especially concerning the internet, is pretty fucked up at present. It's radically outdated and needs to be pushed more towards creative commons and less towards the archaic ideas in the DMCA, but it still needs to exist. People that make great things deserve to make money off of those things, it's a fundamental principle of capitalism. In the case of let's plays, the vast majority of companies are allowing people to use their work for free so long as they don't make money off of something that's not theirs without permission. That's much more fair than what the black letter law provides for.

This is a well balanced and reasoned post. Nice.

 

[deth2munkies]

I don't understand why these companies even care if someone is making money with videos of their games. It's not like they're taking away their profit. It's just corporate douchebaggery.

Agreed,it's like they use copy-right claims to intentionally be dicks when those companies have little to gain from doing so.

How would you feel if you spent a couple years of your life writing a novel, then some dick on Youtube reads the entire thing verbatim, makes fun of it, then makes money off of it.

Now some people that may have been interested won't buy your book because they know what happens, and they think it (and you) are stupid because some dick on Youtube said it and his opinions must be correct.

That's the logic there. It's not 100% correct, but it's still pretty plausible to me. Sure, some people may see the game and say "Sure, I want to try that," but most people won't, especially for story based games. I watched a LP of the story of Starcraft: Heart of the Swarm because I wanted to know what happened. Didn't buy the game, but don't feel the need to anymore. Same thing with The Last of Us (though I don't have a PS3 so...). No need to buy them.

I and people like me are the reason why game companies are doing this, and I can totally sympathize with them.

EDIT: Just want to add, this goes double for folks like Telltale, where the gameplay isn't the point, it's the story. If you watch an exhaustive LP of The Walking Dead (where they show all routes), there's literally no point to playing the game.

Except copy right laws are freaking abused by near everyone including game companies.Also sympathy for multi million dollar companies....... really?This isn't hurting them at all and in fact LPs are essentially free advertising.

Ignoring everything I say and restating your own proposition is no way to have a conversation.

That said, you obviously don't know the people who make these games. It's really easy to say "ZOMG BIG CORPORATIONS GRUBBING MONEY" and forget that there's a lot of good individual people that work there and do their jobs brilliantly. I knew a few people at Gearbox and Timegate because I live in Texas where they run things. They're awesome people. In the immediate future, their bonuses are contingent on how well their games do, in the long term, their jobs are.

So don't fucking tell me that sales don't matter and that the only people affected are faceless corporations, because it only betrays your utter ignorance to the truth.

The cold hard truth is those people are just cogs in the machine that is a corporation and most corporations only want one thing:Money.They don't give a damn what you and I think of them so having sympathy for a corporation is pointless.Also I'm ignorant because I know how corporations like to put the screws on people if they so much as smell a money making opportunity?Lol whatever you say.Can you tell how much money these "poor" companies are losing because of Let's Players?

You are either a 13-16 year old guy who has wacko far left parents or have been playing way too much Shadowrun (or both).

Corporations are legal entities that are pretty much required to grow beyond a certain point for any company. They give unprecedented access to capital to do great things, in return for being responsible to their shareholders. If all corporations ceased to exist tomorrow and were banned, our country would have 0 economy. Themis Media Corporation owns The Escapist, the website you're posting on. The individuals here, contributors, mods, editors, video content producers, etc. all work their asses off for a paycheck cut by a corporation, just like 90% of the working world.

In your glorious struggle to bring down "the man", all you're doing is hurting individual people. The fallacious argument implied in the "cogs in a machine" statement is that those individuals would be better off not working for a corporation, when the reverse is probably true. Less consistency in pay, less resources, and more individual responsibility would crush the vast majority of people who tried to strike out on their own. Those that succeed, form their own corporations, because that's how it works.

If you want to live in some sort of anarcho-communist paradise where everyone just decides to work for free for everyone else's benefit out of sheer altruism, keep dreaming.

You and I probably would agree on the idea that copyright law, especially concerning the internet, is pretty fucked up at present. It's radically outdated and needs to be pushed more towards creative commons and less towards the archaic ideas in the DMCA, but it still needs to exist. People that make great things deserve to make money off of those things, it's a fundamental principle of capitalism. In the case of let's plays, the vast majority of companies are allowing people to use their work for free so long as they don't make money off of something that's not theirs without permission. That's much more fair than what the black letter law provides for.

First off I'm 21 about to turn 22 in two weeks,second this isn't the first time corporations tried to strong arm the internet or have you forgotten about things like SOPA?But let's leave the political crap out of this since Let Players are being targeted because the corporate suits of the game industry want to have their cake and eat it too,they want people to advertise their games but they also want it to be without cost.

Now answer my question:How are Let's Players effecting these "poor" game companies who need every cent to get by despite the fact they are making millions every year?

Last response because it's becoming apparently obvious that discussing such a weighty topic in this forum is not providing discourse that's worth my time.

1) Your question just shows you're still missing the point. It's not a question of how damaging it is, but that the very concept of Let's Plays is a clear violation of copyright law as it is on the books right now. Actual damages are not a required element of a copyright claim, and injunctions or nominal damages can result. Not only that, but dilution is one of the reasons why a trademark (and I believe a copyright, although IP is next year) can be nullified (and it's why you don't see any Escalator brand moving staircases anymore). Point being, if companies don't defend their copyrights, they can lose them.

In the instant case, all we're really dealing with is whether or not companies should stop someone from violating their copyrights and whether it's worth it. There's a large difference between censoring a dancing baby video for playing one of your songs and shutting down what has become a lucrative cottage industry based on copyright infringement. The existence of such an industry could begin to undermine copyrights on games as a whole.*

2) You're asking a question you know the answer to: damages are impossible to estimate, as are benefits. There is no way to objectively research and find out exactly how many sales were lost or gained as a result of Let's Plays, simply because you have to evaluate people's intent on a topic they're inclined to lie about on surveys. Not to mention the hassle of tracking down millions of "anonymous" viewers on Youtube to survey them in the first place.

So on this matter we have to result to theory arguments, and my theory is this: there is no reason why you should be able to post an entire run through of a game, even as advertisement. Seeing a game run all the way through negates a huge part of the game: discovery. Seeing what happens when you do certain things is a huge part of the game, even a procedurally generated roguelike. Watching a person play it all the way through negates at least some aspect of discovery, which makes people less likely to play the game, especially in story driven games.

The argument that people use Let's Plays to evaluate titles holds some weight, but there is no reason why one needs to watch an entire playthrough to evaluate a game. Why do you need to see anything beyond the first level or two to evaluate the systems, graphic style, etc. of a game? It seems that on face, the arguments that it detracts from the experience enough to discourage sales seem to outweigh the possibility of gained sales given that there are so many other ways to advertise, including more limited Let's Plays.

*An analogy so people can understand: Let's Plays are to the gaming industry as the knockoffs are to the fashion industry. They're getting paid to make works that have no value without the works they are based on, and using only methods provided by that industry.