Sorry but comparing male and female to being black or white is just...stupid. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Black/white is mostly just a skin colour difference not a different chemistry in your brain. Male and female brains really do work differently. So there really is such a thing as a male or a female brain.
That being said, believe what you want. Science disagrees with you. But hey, if that's what you want to believe go ahead. Just don't bother transgender people with it.
Comparing black/white and male/female in this scenario is not stupid. If i thought i was a black man inside my body it would be a mental condition that people would try and treat. I wouldnt be percieved as a black man and i wouldnt be encouraged to die my skin etc. In a similar sense transgender should be seen as a mental condition (not that you are insane or there is anything majorly wrong with your psyche just a "crossed connection"). Transgender shouldnt be encouraged to be the other gender and shouldnt be encouraged to get expensive, painful and life altering surgery but should instead be encouraged to seek physcological help in the same sense as the hypothetical white man who believes he is black
Im not here to insult transgender im just trying to figure out how many people believe that a psychological treatment is better
I know theres a lot of transgender, transexual and transvestite stuff on here and a lot of people use the phrase: man stuck in a womans body or vice versa. I have a problem with this phrase just because you think that you are a woman it doesnt make you a women. If i was to genuinely believe that i was a black man trapped inside a white mans body and i blacked myself up and permed my hair etc people wouldnt respect that choice they would probably try and get me profesional help and rightfully so. The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.
Its just my opinion that transexuals are not actually the opposite sex and instead have a "crossed connection" in their brain
You may want to sticky this into the OP so people see it because all the misinformation in this tread is making my head hurt.
The notion that "men and women are wired differently" in almost entirely false. Most research now is pointing to the fact that men and women are the same in almost every way. There are actually MORE differences between people of the same sex than people of opposite sexes. So this argument that transsexuals are somehow justified in being how they are because they have a "woman's brain" is completely ridiculous.
THAT BEING SAID, before you break out the flamethrowers, no one really know what causes gender dysphoria (which is the proper name for this affliction). Theories range from androgen levels being too high during prenatal brain development to a simple confusion in social gender roles. No one knows.
But do not for a moment think there are "woman" brains and "man" brains. It is misinformative and, frankly, should be offensive to anyone who supports equality and feminism.
If I am wrong, please send me a scholarly article detailing why and I'll gladly change my position but I don't think I am given the current research I have read.
I know theres a lot of transgender, transexual and transvestite stuff on here and a lot of people use the phrase: man stuck in a womans body or vice versa. I have a problem with this phrase just because you think that you are a woman it doesnt make you a women. If i was to genuinely believe that i was a black man trapped inside a white mans body and i blacked myself up and permed my hair etc people wouldnt respect that choice they would probably try and get me profesional help and rightfully so. The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.
Its just my opinion that transexuals are not actually the opposite sex and instead have a "crossed connection" in their brain
And this is one of those times that someone's opinion is wrong. People seem to think that they can have an opinion on things and as long as they say "it's just my opinion," it makes them untouchable and they can't be objectively wrong, but it's not true.
First off, your comparison of gender to race is fundamentally flawed, and wrong. But others have already said why so we'll leave that.
Second, saying they have a "crossed connection" in their brain does an excellent job of glossing over the sheer complexity of the brain and differences in brain chemistry which result in people being transgendered. It might seem like a nice way to boil a complex issue down to something seemingly simple which supports your point, but really, it just makes you look ignorant.
Comparing black/white and male/female in this scenario is not stupid. If i thought i was a black man inside my body it would be a mental condition that people would try and treat.
Because one works and the other doesn't? Because one is back by science and research and the other isn't?
Jacco said:
But do not for a moment think there are "woman" brains and "man" brains. It is misinformative and, frankly, should be offensive to anyone who supports equality and feminism.
Except nothing about brains being structured different should impact either equality OR feminism.
If I am wrong, please send me a scholarly article detailing why and I'll gladly change my position but I don't think I am given the current research I have read.
I like the fact that you request scholarly articles but provide none of your own. Quite interesting.
Vivi22 said:
Second, saying they have a "crossed connection" in their brain does an excellent job of glossing over the sheer complexity of the brain and differences in brain chemistry which result in people being transgendered.
If I am wrong, please send me a scholarly article detailing why and I'll gladly change my position but I don't think I am given the current research I have read.
In my experience, people on the internet request evidence and scholarly articles as a replacement for their own inability to respond to the issue at hand. No one reads or cares about them and it never changes their position when provided. I have better things to do than scour JSTOR or PsychInfo or something similar for an article to make my point when no one will read it or care.
The point they were trying to make but you seem to have missed is that there are tonnes of different exceptions no matter how we define gender.
So please tell me what a person with klinefelters is supposed to be according to you? The cromosomes are XXY, have penises, gets boobs naturally and is all-around in-between when it comes to hormone levels and such. How do identify there people with any surety?
Or a person where the doctors can't be sure what kind of genitals they have. Or the cases when the person seems to be a completely ordinary male/female and then it is discovered that they have the opposite sex's chromosomes?
In before somebody says that the exceptions don't count, because of reasons, and then state that transgenders are delusional because gender and sex is always clear and distinct (due to it not counting when it isn't).
I look down on them because they lack the courage to just say they want to be the other sex, they look for excuses.
If someone were to say to me they have changed because they wanted to be the other I'd be ok with that. When they tell me they're trapped in the wrong body I just think they're delusional.
I'm pretty sure gender dysphoria is the generally accepted term. Maybe it's just me, but "Man stuck in a women's body" sounds like a perverse sex act gone horribly wrong.
People deserve to have the body they want. Despite what we might want to believe, how others perceive us is very important to our psychological well-being.
shootthebandit said:
Being a male or a female is binary. Of course its a fixed catagory you are either born a male or you are born a female
Op, you need to get out more if you want to actually tackle that subject matter. You really don't have any idea what you are talking about, which is evident by your comparison to skin color. You are misconstruing gender for physical sex, which are two different things. Human beings are complicated creatures where gender identity is formed by a combination of neurological traits and societal norms. Your physical sex is but the smallest piece in a larger puzzle. A female neurology in a body that is physically male will ultimately identify as female, not male regardless of what is in between their legs.
Yea but the psychotherapy doesn't work in alot/both cases sadly. I mean it would be the "easier" option yes, since surgery/HRT can get expensive, but i guess when you consider how certain people can react to being crippled, yea i see why they would be ethically against it.
That being said, i think BIID is a bit different from transgenderism, in that cutting off ones limbs in effect disables you, and if they were poor, leaving them in a disabled state would hamper their life/employment opportunities. The same cant really be said for transgenderism, since AFAIK, alot jobs don't require certain sexes.
It's just been shown really that in cases of homosexuality, transgenderism, or what have you, changing something so integral to someones identity is alot harder then changing the flesh. Should research be done in these areas? Maybe, but i mean i think quality of life is more important than making people normal.
There are permanent disadvantages to sex change operations, for one it leaves people infertile, their new sex organs are only aesthetic and can't actually reproduce. To the disability of amputation point, yes it would make it harder to find a job, but that should not affect the ethics of the question. If it is someone's right to change their own body for no other reason than that they don;t like how it is now, than the specifics shouldn't matter. If it isn't, then all permanent self-alterations based on self-delusion should be opposed.
As to the quality of life point, I detest the cultural concept that we would rather change the world than have to adapt to our situation. Air conditioning is one thing, but changing one's own biochemistry is nearing ridiculous.
There are permanent disadvantages to sex change operations, for one it leaves people infertile, their new sex organs are only aesthetic and can't actually reproduce.
That is only really a disadvantage if you want to have children, heck some people see being infertile as a vantage, since some can now have sexual intercourse without impunity, at least regarding children that is. And they can always save semen/eggs, or have the child before the operation. What im getting at is there are alternatives for not having genitalia, but as for BIID, the only solution is to cut off a limb in alot of cases, which kind of screws anyone over with a manual labor job.
If it is someone's right to change their own body for no other reason than that they don;t like how it is now, than the specifics shouldn't matter. If it isn't, then all permanent self-alterations based on self-delusion should be opposed.
Maybe i misspoke then, when i said that " yea i see why they would be ethically against it." i meant i understood their viewpoint from a economical, as in, there wouldn't be any way to supplement income if they were a working class(physical labor) citizen. I still think they should be entitled to do it, since it would improve quality of life, but just their situation is a bit more perilous, IMO.
"based on self delusion"? , that's a tad bit condescending, inst it? You think they trick themselves into thinking this way? Its these kind of comments that trigger rage,opinion or not, just to let you know.
As to the quality of life point, I detest the cultural concept that we would rather change the world than have to adapt to our situation. Air conditioning is one thing, but changing one's own biochemistry is nearing ridiculous.
I dont understand, i mean its not like in every case of transgenderism there is HRT involved, some just get breast augmentations and the SRS, so as far as it being all biochemical, i dont think so. There are alot of options for transitioning, and yes, it is all done for quality of life, as most things are.
You say they are changing the world? I dont really understand, and if my ignorance comes off as condescending, sorry, but all they are doing is changing themselves, if other people change as a result of that, can you blame them?
And yes, Air conditioning is one thing, there are health risks to being exposed to the heat too long, and therefore people want a place to rest that is cool. But it really comes down to a balance on what people want, and how it will "cost" them. A good Air condition costs a few 100$, and results in your domain being refreshing, as long as you can afford the electric and mortgage bill. Being transgender costs money for the HRT, if they want it, money for the SRS(around 20-30000 USD), if they want it. It costs the social stigma of being labeled a freak or delusional, to be disowned by one's family, to be turned down from a job, unofficially, that is. And lets not forget the random acts of violence that chance upon transpeople. I don't think comparing it to air conditioning is very fair of you.
I know theres a lot of transgender, transexual and transvestite stuff on here and a lot of people use the phrase: man stuck in a womans body or vice versa. I have a problem with this phrase just because you think that you are a woman it doesnt make you a women. If i was to genuinely believe that i was a black man trapped inside a white mans body and i blacked myself up and permed my hair etc people wouldnt respect that choice they would probably try and get me profesional help and rightfully so. The same goes for gender just because you believe in your head that you are the opposite sex it still doesnt make you that sex.
Its just my opinion that transexuals are not actually the opposite sex and instead have a "crossed connection" in their brain
On the grand scheme of things what you're brain tells you is more important then what your body tells you. The brain and thought process is a pretty big mystery to us now, we honestly have no idea how gender dysphoria functions on a cognitive level and thus there is no magic pill to suddenly change that thought process (although would you even want that?).
As it stands the best way to treat gender dyspohria is how ever the patient wants, for many it's hormone therapy and a change to the gender they perceive themselves as.
There are some advances in our understanding of cognitive processes and gender, research into chromosomes have even shown there could be a physical cause for certain cases.
As for a crossed wire in the brain, thats a terribly abrasive way to comment on someone's thought process, especially when in reality every individual has countless abnormalities in their brain that separates them from the "norm". It's not like everyone is running on the same operating system, cognition happens from many entities thrown together and process our thoughts on a daily basis, it's what makes us unique and varied as a species. You just happen to believe your gender is "correct", doesn't make you any better or worse in the grand scheme of things, just makes you another human along with the rest of us sad sods.
If I am wrong, please send me a scholarly article detailing why and I'll gladly change my position but I don't think I am given the current research I have read.
In my experience, people on the internet request evidence and scholarly articles as a replacement for their own inability to respond to the issue at hand. No one reads or cares about them and it never changes their position when provided. I have better things to do than scour JSTOR or PsychInfo or something similar for an article to make my point when no one will read it or care.
I dont think its fair you expect other people you provide a source, when you didn't even provide one for the claim you made. Now im not saying that the "male/female" brain is right,AFAIK its just a theory that hasn't been proven yet, but you totally contradict yourself in your first post, so i believe that deserves some attention.
THAT BEING SAID, before you break out the flamethrowers, no one really know what causes gender dysphoria (which is the proper name for this affliction). Theories range from androgen levels being too high during prenatal brain development to a simple confusion in social gender roles. No one knows.
You cant say "no one really know what causes gender dysphoria, and then at the same time claim to know that you know all about it, ie: "the male/female" brain concept is bunk. You even conceded to the possibility of it being the androgen levels being to high, which relates to the "male/female" brain theory you rejected.
And i have to ask as well, why is it offensive that men/women have different brains? AFAIK, feminists want to be equal to men, so how does having a different brain impact that equality? Just because people have different brains, doesnt mean that the people themselves are different. I mean Men, on average, are stronger than women, but does this mean we should bar women from combat roles due to averages? Nope. Dont blame other people for being offensive if you cant even explain, because i think that's just rude.
In my experience, people on the internet request evidence and scholarly articles as a replacement for their own inability to respond to the issue at hand. No one reads or cares about them and it never changes their position when provided. I have better things to do than scour JSTOR or PsychInfo or something similar for an article to make my point when no one will read it or care.
You are so right it hurts! It's ridiculous how closed-minded people can be on the internet, and I for one have never seen anyone on a forum read a source they've been presented as evidence against their argument and actually take on board what the damned thing says. At worst they ignore it and at best they blindly refute it. It's as though people see a willingness to learn from others as a sign of weakness.
I look down on them because they lack the courage to just say they want to be the other sex, they look for excuses.
If someone were to say to me they have changed because they wanted to be the other I'd be ok with that. When they tell me they're trapped in the wrong body I just think they're delusional.
I thought I made it clear; I have no problem with transgendered people, I have a problem with a reason for being one. Specifically, the one this thread is about.
Is this the new thing on the escapist? Lots of trans threads coming up and people sharing their ignorance and misunderstandings?
What possible harm does it do you to let other people be themselves?
You think that they're not really being them?
Well, sucks to be you. It's not your life, not your problem.
Unless someone is trying to make you transition against your will, it's really not your business what they do.
I just don't get it.
Captcha: Senior citizen
Damn right, you kids get off my lawn.
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