Mangaka Claims Kill la Kill Plagiarizes His Manga

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chikusho

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lacktheknack said:
It is not "just as likely" and to say it is is to completely fail at both probability and basic human psychology.

Suffering genuine PTSD symptoms because someone makes a similar product as you is an unusual (and pathetic, I maintain) situation with literally no comparable examples that I can think of.

Being a jackass to make a point, however, is VERY common and I can think of hundreds of examples off my Facebook wall alone.

From that alone, no, I can feel VERY safe thinking that he's being a jackass to make a point. Heck, I'd put my life's savings on it.
And there you go emphasizing the trailer aspect instead of the stealing aspect again.

Also, you assume that extreme stress and anxiety related symptoms follow a clear logic, when in fact they rarely do.

Even if we assume that he doesn't have PTSD, there are numerous other explanations, none of which count for hyperbole or "being a jackass." Like, translation issues, differences in language and cultural expressions or even just efficiency in writing. I.e, he could either draw up an inconvenient and perhaps uncomfortably intimate explanation of each symptom for the world to see, OR he could use a shorthand that is similar to what he's experiencing to save time and effort and still get his message across.

I find it troubling that so many people are so anxious to have an opinion that they are ready to immediately villify someone before even trying to consider the situation.

SacremPyrobolum said:
And you know soooooo much more about it I'm sure.

You talk a lot about not jumping to conclusions. How the hell do you know that I'm not an authority on the subject? You assume that I'm not and you would be correct even though you have no evidence to prove that I'm not.
For one, you make a lot of assumptions based on non-existing and incorrect information.
However, if you are an authority on the subject you make a fine job of hiding it. Or if you actually do know the man, feel free to speak up.

Like lacktheknack said, the odds of him actually having PTSD-like reaction from simply watching a trailer that reminded him of one of his old mangas is absurdly low. Again, what is MUCH more feasible is that he is trying to garner sympathy by using PTSD as a sort of short hand for tragic victim OR, and I grant him this benefit of the doubt, he is unfamiliar with the connotation which comes with the word or was mistranslated, as that seems more likely from my rather optimistic viewpoint than someone really trying to claim they experienced PTSD from an anime trailer.
Considering that severe panic attacks can be triggered by nothing, how is it unlikely that an episode is triggered by an extremely personal thing?


Don't believe everything people say.
I don't, which is why I'm writing in this thread.

Don't infer intent in what people say where there is none.
 

BrownGaijin

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Well this is the part where I was going to reference an 80's movie featuring a High School run by an oppressive Student council, I couldn't quite find the one I was looking for so here's a scene from "Better Off Dead"

 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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Quiet Stranger said:
My girlfriend actually has PTSD and after reading his comments, now I'm pissed off. What an ignorant silly butt to claim he has feelings similar to PTSD after watching a trailer.
Good lord, so many people getting offended by someone feeling bad about thinking they've been ripped off. Most artists take their work pretty seriously, so to them, thinking their creative identity has essentially been hijacked is pretty stressful. Remember, stress is relative.

Further, the article doesn't say he claimed to have PTSD, it says he experienced symptoms similar to PTSD. What might those symptoms be, none of you ask because you'd rather bash the guy for being overly dramatic? Let's find out:

WebMD said:
Reliving: People with PTSD repeatedly relive the ordeal through thoughts and memories of the trauma. These may include flashbacks, hallucinations, and nightmares. They also may feel great distress when certain things remind them of the trauma, such as the anniversary date of the event.

Avoiding: The person may avoid people, places, thoughts, or situations that may remind him or her of the trauma. This can lead to feelings of detachment and isolation from family and friends, as well as a loss of interest in activities that the person once enjoyed.

Increased arousal: These include excessive emotions; problems relating to others, including feeling or showing affection; difficulty falling or staying asleep; irritability; outbursts of anger; difficulty concentrating; and being "jumpy" or easily startled. The person may also suffer physical symptoms, such as increased blood pressure and heart rate, rapid breathing, muscle tension, nausea, and diarrhea.
Looking over that list, the idea of experiencing those kinds of symptoms after seeing someone become super popular by taking my ideas seems pretty plausible, if I were someone doing that kind of thing professionally and hadn't achieved the same level of success when I tried it myself. Is it bombastic to actually describe it as "symptoms of PTSD?" Arguably, sure, but that's no reason to give the guy shit for being stressed out. To us this is just another argument on the internet; to Ooshima it's serious business (not used sarcastically for once).
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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I have to admit I almost experienced a bit of PTSD upon reading this, simply because it traumatizes me with the sheer stupidity of the claim.

While I haven't been following anime much over the last several years for a number of reasons, including severe burn out. I am one of those people who can truthfully say I was "into anime, before it was cool in the US, even in the geek set", I will also probably retain some interest in it despite the cycling of it's popularity until I die.

One thing just about anyone should be able to tell you is that the idea of huge, elaborate, boarding schools where the student council somehow manages to wind up wielding more power than most national leaders, is an ancient trope, as is the student council being the bad guys and it's leaders needing to be confronted for some slight/murder/crime/etc. The "boarding school" is popular because it's a way of generally removing adults and family attachments mostly from
the picture, allowing for a greater suspension of disbelief in having an entirely (or almost entirely) young cast which matches the primary target of a tween/teen audience.

Unless there is more to this case than what we're seeing reported, you could argue everyone has been plagerizing everyone else for decades, though really I see it as being more a matter of inspiration in what has always been a fairly incestuous community of artists and studios. At one time I used to follow things seriously enough to real translated periodicals about who was working with who and what collaberations were happening and sponsored by which studio. In general it seems like it would be a headache for anyone to claim ownership of almost anything on an "Intellectual Property" type level, which is in part why I suspect some studios and creators have gotten so draconian in defending their specific art designs since it's one of the few things that can be considered concrete.

Based on what was said here, you could probably argue that both of these guys wind up plagerizing "Revolutionary Girl Utena" which probably predates both works by a substantial margin, and most importantly was contracted to be shown in several different countries, giving it the all important documentation (who has what first isn't as important as the first person to have the idea legally recognized). Of course that's weak in of itself because those tropes were around long before Utena.

Oh sure, in the actual details neither show is much like Utena at all, but the details being mentioned are. I mean we have a surrealistic school isolated from just about everything else that seems to make most cities look small. One small "hidden" area of it is apparently larger enough to have a ginormous staircase/elevator bordering on a space elevator that leads to a platform with an inverted castle above it (though the finale reveals this is actually the result of the principals' personal holodeck-type technology... but well... trying to make sense out of this particular series will fry your brain as it was intended to be surreal and metaphorical from the get go). We have plotlines in this show with the personal mansion-housing of some students is shown to have burned down leading to vengeful ghosts, horses and race cars moving through the halls at various points, and all kinds of other huge scale insanity. The student council are the apparent bad guys for 99% of it and seem to be involved in some kind of plot to destroy the world for lulz, and are indeed shown to have godlike power in regulating other students in terms of assigning housing and such, a point which comes up when the title character makes enemies of them and sees her status varying greatly depending on whether or not she has control of the "Rose Bride" at any given point.

In short it's nothing at all like "Kill La Kill"... but it matches the points being disputed. :)

Unless more news comes up clarifying this, I'd pretty much just ignore it. Sounds like some Japanese creator on the outs trying to get some quick attention.
 

Therumancer

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Cybylt said:
likalaruku said:
I've been reading manga since the 90s. I can't even beging to tell you how many times I've felt like I've already read something before. It's all large collections of tropes that imitate eachother. For example:

*Dragonball Z + Yu Yu Hakusho = Hunter x Hunter.
*Hunter x Hunter + .hack// + Diabolo = GetBackers.
*Hunter x Hunter + food porn = Toriko.
*Slayers + gender swap = Gokudo & Orphan Revenge.
*Slayers + ecchi = Dragon Half.
*Petshop of Horrors + Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro = Black Butler.
*Legal Drug - CLAMP + guns & smoking = Wild Adapter.
*Marmalade Boy + Chou Gals = Peach Girl.
*Fist of the North Star + Devilman = Zero Apocalypse.
*Gunsmith Cats + outer space = Dirty Pair & Project A-Ko Battle Versus.
*Cutie Honey + violence = Devilman Woman.
*Yu-Gi-Oh + Pretear = Card Captor Sakura.
*DNA 2 - ecchi + homoerotic tension = DNAngel.
*Azumanga Daioh + all boy's school = Sukigake Cramortie High.
*Sukigake Cramortie High + Great Teacher Onizuka - Onizuka = Gukosen.
*Kino no Tabi + gender swap = King of Bandit Jing (moreso in the anime version).
Pretty much. Anime's been getting increasingly insular since the later 90's, on top of a lot of stuff being very formulaic. So I don't get why this guy is crying foul in an industry where "genre" pretty much means almost exactly the same show.

It's not like he made something out of the box or original in the first place either. As others pointed out, Utena was the ur-example of this particular subgenre and both Noise and KlK have a lot in common with it.

Hell you don't see Akira Toriyama bitching that Bleach and Naruto are plagiarizing Dragon Ball or DBZ.
You don't hear about Go Nagai or Ken Ishikawa claiming PTSD after watching Gundam, Eva, or a Magical Girl show. I mean, Ishikawa isn't going to be claiming much of anything what with being dead, but still.
Lol, yeah I wrote a response mentioning Utena myself before I realized how many other fans were thinking exactly the same thing. Kind of regret writing my previous post now. Truthfully though I don't think Utena invented a lot of those tropes, it just helped to popularize them.

As far as the specific list quoted above goes, it makes the point, but has some of the order wrong. I also believe "Devilman" (and Devilman Woman) were done/created by Go Ngai, who also had the rights to the Cutie Honey, he didn't invent the character but did relaunch it in the 1990s as the "new" Cutie Honey, which he also crossed over with some of his own work (the new Honey's supporting cast were pretty much from his "Yashabiri" family anime... I think I have the name right, it's been a long time, and Grandpa Danbai can be seen flying by in the backround in a scene from Kekko Kamen as well... he seemed to enjoy crossing over his own work in weird ways). "The Dirty Pair" was originally a set of novels (and by that I don't mean Manga) if I remember, that happened to later get adapted into visual mediums. The "Project A-Ko Vs." series (Blue Side, Grey Side) actually spoofed a number of other animes including "The Dirty Pair" if I remember, but then again such references were arguably always the point of A-ko from the very beginning.
 

Therumancer

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Korolev said:
Even if it is Plagarism, good luck proving it. A lot creative works borrow from each other - there's very little new under the sun and if we crucified every single new bit of media that resembled something else, we'd be crucifying darn near everything.

I've never seen Kill La Kill and I've never read whatever Manga Ooshima claims it rips off of, but I've watched a lot of movies and I've read a lot of books and the thing Ooshima is complaining about - taking the basic premise and themes from a work of fiction and using parts of them to make a new work of art - is INCREDIBLY common. As common as dishwater.

Is Pacific Rim "plagiarizing" Evangelion? Are The Hunger Games "plagiarizing" Battle Royale? Is the recent Tomb Raider game "Plagiarizing" the Uncharted games? Are the Uncharted Games "plagiarizing" from the older tomb raider games?

Ooshima might be right that the creators of Kill la Kill saw his earlier work and decided to make something similar, but that is NOT plagiarism. At the very worst it's creatively bankrupt, but not evil and in reality it's usually a pretty standard, normal thing that artists do. Many, many great books, films, games and shows have used earlier works to inspire them.
As I said in another post the whole anime industry seems to be fairly incestuous to begin with. If I had to guess the guy making the complaints is probably upset over "Kill La Kill" because it's done by people he worked with, perhaps off the record, and he feels they are stealing his ideas. With something this basic it would be insane (as I've explained at great length) but there might be more to the story. If he plans to take this to court, it makes a degree of sense that he wouldn't be putting all his cards out in the public eye at this stage.

Inspiration and plagiarism are always a touchy subject in creative fields, especially ones that start out being very open, but then gradually become ruthlessly corporate with everyone hoarding every IP they can in order to get an edge over the competition. The increasing international success of anime seems to have actually made it a lot less pleasant of a business than it was a couple decades ago.

I'll also say that giant robots were around a long time before Evangelion, to really plagiarize that you'd basically need to use the gimmick of a living, organic, war machine being disguised as a robot, which is actually being piloted by a guy sitting in a cybernetic implant.... that's the "twist" that actually makes Evangelion unique, and as such it would actually be pretty defensible. People simply linking to machines and piloting them was around long before Evangelion. Indeed one of the reasons the term "mecha" exists is because originally it was intended to differentiate between a war machine simply piloted by someone, and one that the pilot merges with. The idea being that cybernetics is when you replace yourself with machines, where mecha is a method of enhancing yourself with machines using a temporary interface to become one with it. Cyberpunk fiction used to get into this difference, and it was a key concept in things like the original "Bubblegum Crisis" (going by expanded materials), the idea being that the Knight Sabers were so much better than the AD police, because they basically blended with their machines and they became an extension of their bodies when they used their suits, as opposed to the police mech pilots who were basically driving a humanoid car. RPGs like "Shadowrun" and "Cyberpunk" also used versions of this, albeit more based on the writings of western Cyberpunk writers to a similar effect, with "Riggers" basically using cybernetics to become one with their vehicles. "Pacific Rim" actually has more to worry about from other giant robot franchises (western and Japanese) than Evangelion if someone actually wanted to pursue it... which I doubt anyone will, because it might as well be public domain at this point.

When it comes to "Battle Royale" and "The Hunger Games" you might as well bring "Lord Of The Flies", "The Running Man", and "The Long Walk" (I think that was the name of it) into it, two of the three which happen to be Steven King's works I believe, and it occurred to me a while ago that he would be able to sue. "The Long Walk" being a story about a future in which the government forces a bunch of kids to walk and when they stumble or cannot go any further they shoot them, the survivor at the end pretty much gets massive rewards, it's a compulsory thing if I remember done for largely the same reasons as "The Hunger Games" or "Battle Royale". It's like someone took that premise, combined it with "The Running Man" to make it more political as opposed to being about the media, and turned it into a story (in "The Running Man" there were political overtones, but one thing you might remember in both the story and the movie... they weren't supposed to use political/military prisoners specifically because of what happened in the story when they did it anyway for ratings).

"Tomb Raider", "Uncharted" and their ilk are more or less safe. They are largely ripping off "Indiana Jones" which itself was ripping off tropes from vintage 30 and 40s era adventure stories. The ironic thing is that they set out to make "Indy" politically correct by having him recovering treasure for museums. Originally most of the similar pulp adventurers did it largely for their own reasons, like Lara or Nathan. In a pulp story for example some adventurer might say go heading out in the jungles to find a golden idol so he could sell it, or to just display in his trophy room (being already rich) to show off how awesome an adventurer they were. It really wasn't much about respect for cultures, or shared global history. The ironic thing is that at the time, the places that inspired these stories and had the real adventurers running around didn't much care either. One of the reasons why I have so little respect for restoring treasures to their "rightful" owners in Egypt and stuff, when in reality these nations were literally jumping all over each other to attract treasure hunting expeditions and such so they could make money off of them. I find a certain degree of irony in nations demanding things back, after they gladly took the money and assisted with the looting at the time... now they want the gold too? I've always kind of wanted to see some of these nations hit with a bill (adjusted for inflation and hefty interests) for the expenses of the expeditions that found this stuff before they can get anything back... but I'm getting off track more than usual. :)


None of this matters of course, I'm just rambling. I pretty much agree with you that when it comes to some things your just not going to come up with fair ownership of the idea at this point.
 

EyeReaper

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Here: An anime about an MMO that involves putting on headgear that, if you die in the game, serious bad stuff happens to you in real life.
Now, Did I just describe Sword Art Online or .Hack//?

Basically my point is, A lot of anime share a lot of similarities, Mr. Mangaka who I am sure is reading this post.
 

Kittyhawk

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I hear where he's coming from, but I don't think its plagarism. Its clear enough to me that KLK takes influences from those old 70/80's anime like Sukeban Deka, Kekkou Kamen, Project A-ko, Utena etc. When I first watched a few eps of KLK, the first thing I thought of was Project A-Ko, the very anime I purchased at the age of 12, that got me into anime so much.

Ooshima should do the smart thing and watch a few episodes of KLK, perhaps then judge it with such strong notes of ire.

Studio Trigger will state their influences for KLK and all of this will blow away. For Ooshima to think its just him alone is also reaching a bit. Trailers can also be misleading.

Oh anime, this is what happens when you lack originality and go all Ouroborous on yourself. Just as well KLK is doing well because the anime industry needs a hit now and then.
 

Danial

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Had a quick Google image search to compare as I don't really care about either (read; hadn't heard of until today)and can safely say the only similarities between the two shows is also shared with a load of other random anime and other mangas for years past, hell the example the anime news network people show looks like a character from Bleach, which im sure looks like 30 other characters from a million different anime and manga's i haven't read.


Oh and PTSD? oh Fack off. Call me when you wake up crying and don't know why.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Azkar Almsivi said:
Izanagi009 said:
I was just going to mention Infinite Stratos given your avatar but you beat me to it (WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE IT, WHY DID I WATCH IT, it's generic, cliche, and the times I laugh are outweighed by the amount of times I smack my head at how stupid it is or how predictable it gets. the only good thing is that the exosuit designs are pretty good if a bit copied from gundam designs.)

back to the whole plagiarism allegation, given the lack of actual research, overreaction and the fact that his partner is saying otherwise, the mangaka is just trying to hop on and get popularity by being attached to one of the big anime of the year

P.S. WATCH KILL LA KILL, if you love over the top crazy action combined with surprisingly good characters and drama with a bit of a brain behind the imagery and the like, watch it

Edit: i know that if i say this that any credibility as an advocate against cheap generic anime and for anime as an art from will be destroyed but Houki and Char are kind of tied in my mind for "best girl"
IS2 exists for waifu wars. As for KlK I think I'll get around to it, I'm finishing Azumanga Daioh ATM. All aboard the late train.
When a beam type weapon destroys multiple IS frames with a single shot and then gets a direct hit on a single frame with next to no/no shields left and all it does is make the pilot spit out a lot of saliva... well.
One can only handle so much plot armor.

It's good that you recognize the glory of France... wait, what? Tied with Houki?
shut up, I'm a giant otaku/mild weeaboo so yamato nadeshiko is somewhat appealing to me. I see it like this, Char is cute and sweet, Houki is elegant with a bit of iron.

also, an anime can have both cute girls with an actual plot, IS2 fails in having a plot and the light novels are crawling at a snails pace (speaking of the light novels, how on earth do they handle the world purge storyline)
 

Loop Stricken

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Azkar Almsivi said:
So does that mean all the harem style anime with a single, dense beyond reality male character without an ounce of social etiquette or a single clue about the opposite sex getting mindlessly pursued by every female within his school/job/war/battle to avenge grandpa/SAVE THE WORLD FROM EVIL WITH FRIENDSHIP AND/OR DETERMINAAAAATION!!!!11...
Goddamn it Ichiga you dense sisterfucker, what is WRONG with you? Just go bang Houki and let me have Laura.

Izanagi009 said:
Edit: i know that if i say this that any credibility as an advocate against cheap generic anime and for anime as an art from will be destroyed but Houki and Char are kind of tied in my mind for "best girl"
 

Azkar Almsivi

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Izanagi009 said:
Shut up? That's mean.

I feel sorry for Houki.
She HAS to win, she can be sacrificed to the infuriating MC and let the rest of the girls be free. Shame he only pitches his tent for his sister...
Reasons for Houki sacrifice:
Japanese.
Tsundere.
IS has swords.
Lots of screen time.
Best girls aren't tsundere.

Reasons she might lose:
Ichika's sister is even tsun'er tsundere than her.
Usually comes 4th or lower on Japanese poles as to who is best girl.

Come on Houki, take it for the team!

Loop Stricken said:

I loathe shipping and the yaoi/Sonic/Naruto gorging fanbase that usually permeates it but I would nod my head and Gendo Ikari pose up a storm at a Charlotte/Laura ending. It would make up for all the weak sci fi and pure torture that is Ichika interacting with people of the opposite sex.

"HE IS SHY WITH GIRLS LIKE ME BUT ALSO A HERO LIKE I WANT TO BE WHO GETS ALL THE GIRLS! YAY!" Oh Japan, why do you do this to yourself...

OT: Plagiarism is totally bad, but this isn't an example of it. In my opinion.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Azkar Almsivi said:
Izanagi009 said:
Shut up? That's mean.

I feel sorry for Houki.
She HAS to win, she can be sacrificed to the infuriating MC and let the rest of the girls be free. Shame he only pitches his tent for his sister...
Reasons for Houki sacrifice:
Japanese.
Tsundere.
IS has swords.
Lots of screen time.
Best girls aren't tsundere.

Reasons she might lose:
Ichika's sister is even tsun'er tsundere than her.
Usually comes 4th or lower on Japanese poles as to who is best girl.

Come on Houki, take it for the team!

Loop Stricken said:

I loathe shipping and the yaoi/Sonic/Naruto gorging fanbase that usually permeates it but I would nod my head and Gendo Ikari pose up a storm at a Charlotte/Laura ending. It would make up for all the weak sci fi and pure torture that is Ichika interacting with people of the opposite sex.

"HE IS SHY WITH GIRLS LIKE ME BUT ALSO A HERO LIKE I WANT TO BE WHO GETS ALL THE GIRLS! YAY!" Oh Japan, why do you do this to yourself...

OT: Plagiarism is totally bad, but this isn't an example of it. In my opinion.
apologies, just thought the little gif you used was a bit much even for a disagreement, also it's surpassing for Houki to be 4th or worst. Usually, Japanese audiences pick girls that encompass traditional Yamato Nadeshiko qualities of timidness, loving, gentile but with a bit of iron. Examples are how Japan likes Rei Ayanami over Asuka while the States are the otehr way around or how Bleach's Hinamori is loved in Japan but hated in America because she seems sexist in the states but loyalty and gentile feminine nature is loved in Japan

Also, I doubt that Houki will lose, the light novels have pretty much been setting her up as the victor compared to the others. Honestly though, I have no idea why the "shy dense guy gets all the girls" is still made since most know it's a stupid fantasy and it's getting generic.

Also the thing with the sister is somewhat explainable, children at a young age typically attach onto parental figures with affection and care. Since Chifuyu was the only one around, he latches onto her. As for why they seem like husband and wife according to the ova, there is a concept in Japan call "amae" or dependency on indulgence". Basically, person A solicits something from person B who accepts the wishes of the other person. This, however, has the expectancy of reciprocity which means that if Person B needs something, person A has to accept it and fulfill it. In addition, Japanese tend to have high empathy to the point that one does something to help another without even being asked. So to use the two examples in the ova, Ichika at birth solicited care from Chifuyu (coincidentally, amae is modeled after the mother/child relationship) and so Ichika is expected to accept the wishes of Chifuyu back whenever something is needed. In addition, because they have gotten to the point of helping without being asked, it would look like a husband tending to his wife even though the amae paradigm is common throughout all relationships.

Note: this whole rant about amae is based on a semester of Japanese culture I took in college, if anyone knows about the amae paradigm better and can elaborate on it, that is much appricated. Also, while Japanese culture influences anime to a significant degree, my whole thesis on amae in Infinite Stratos may be completely wrong and may just be a otaku/weaboo (yes, I admit it gets a bit much) overthinking things.
 

Loop Stricken

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Azkar Almsivi said:
Loop Stricken said:

I loathe shipping and the yaoi/Sonic/Naruto gorging fanbase that usually permeates it but I would nod my head and Gendo Ikari pose up a storm at a Charlotte/Laura ending. It would make up for all the weak sci fi and pure torture that is Ichika interacting with people of the opposite sex.
I too would be very okay with that. Why else would they put that (whatever kind of food it was that I don't remember) scene in? Why?!
 

Legion

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Oct 2, 2008
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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Legion said:
The sheer amount of anime's that seem to be based around "Highschool club is going to be closed unless students do X" would suggest that originality isn't exactly it's strong point. Like the Triple A gaming market and Hollywood, if a concept is popular, it will be bled to death.

The fact that one of the other people working on it doesn't see the connection suggests the claims are somewhat tenuous.
That is entirely not the premise of Kill La Kill. Kill La Kill revolves around a girl dressed in a magical talking stripper outfit beating up magical clothing powered students in order to find her fathers killer. It in no way has to do with a girl trying to do something so her school club isn't closed.
I never claimed that it was. I have replied to another person who said the same thing on page 2 I believe, as to why I brought it up.

To re-iterate, I was pointing out that anime frequently use the same basic premise in their shows (the after school club example being extremely common), so unless things are outright taken from his work, plagiarism is a bit of an exaggeration.