Many video games have succeeded in giving sophisticated deep narratives. Epic debate.

[InconceivableTruth]

I know there are classes for ludology [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludology] (sort of like literary theory but for interactive art - games), but I'm talking about having a core class for video game analyses at college. It could serve as a substitute for a literature class.

I'm playing Persona 2: Innocent Sin right now, and I'm noticing a bunch of allusions to Carl Jung's philosophy. I actually own one of his books, so I might as well read it while playing it...

Just imagine writing analyses of Deus Ex, ICO, Shadow of the Colosseus, Planescape: Torment, and etc. It'd be awesome. These games have powerful, deep narratives, dude. I'd say they're on the level of a lot of good lit.

Digital Devil Saga, for example, is like the Bhagavad Gita in video game form. Why not play that and read the Bhagavad Gita alongisde it?

Oh, all Video Game 1101 classes must cover Earthbound too. Check out my friend's essay on it [http://phoenixicsepehr.blogspot.com/2009/10/art-guest-essay-on-earthbound.html] for example. It's a prime example of a game with great thematic depth!

I could give more articles like that, even better ones, but you get my point. I feel pretty awesome for being a scholarly video gamer. It reminds me of Red from Pokemon Gold, "Pokemon is serious business. Too busy for mom."

Similarly: "Video games are serious business. Too busy for life."

[EDIT] - I'm not claiming games are a better medium than film, sequential art, or literature. I'm saying all of them are capable of having deep, sophisticated narratives. Each of them have their own strengths and weaknesses though.

 

[Motti]

I remember hearing about a course in videogame at the UTS in Sydney, but whether that was about the overall games themselves or the more computerised aspects to it I'm not exactly certain.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

Video games still aren't a medium comparable with literature or film. So stop pushing it.

Yes, they are! Here's something I posted in another thread dealing with this:

I believe we have to look at this question empirically. I am not going to provide a ludological theory on how a game's narrative progresses while employing a high level of player agency, for I find this unnecessary for such a topic. If we agree on only ONE game possessing an intricate, deep narrative, then by virtue of this fact, we must agree the medium, itself, has the potential to express meaningful and thematically deep narratives. Of course, there are limitations within all mediums in terms of story-telling; for example, Alan Moore frequently states how he created V for Vendetta and Watchmen to be irreproducible in other formats. Similarly, games are able to employ many devices outside the scope of film and sequential art, but this also works the other way too (i.g., films and sequential art possessing commonly used devices outside the reach of games). However, we are looking at one facet of games: whether the narrative may be deep and meaningful. Yes, this is empirically proven and unfalsifiable. Granted, there is a subjective element, but to state a game cannot provide sociological criticism or thematic depth is absurd. Perhaps, prose may explore aspects of this universe more efficiently than interactive art, but interactive art should not be regarded as "poor man's trash for intellectual food".

I gave some examples of thematically deep video games.

Also, don't tell me to stop pushing it! I push it to the limit!

 

[Maverick Siragusa]

id make sure i study

 

[InconceivableTruth]

No, I play games to escape and have fun. The minute I'm forced to play them so I can do some pointless school assignment I probably won't have as much fun.

As much as all of you people like to argue Video games still aren't a medium comparable with literature or film. So stop pushing it.

Yes, they are! Here's something I wrote on another thread:

I believe we have to look at this question empirically. I am not going to provide a ludological theory on how a game's narrative progresses while employing a high level of player agency, for I find this unnecessary for such a topic. If we agree on only ONE game possessing an intricate, deep narrative, then by virtue of this fact, we must agree the medium, itself, has the potential to express meaningful and thematically deep narratives. Of course, there are limitations within all mediums in terms of story-telling; for example, Alan Moore frequently states how he created V for Vendetta and Watchmen to be irreproducible in other formats. Similarly, games are able to employ many devices outside the scope of film and sequential art, but this also works the other way too (i.g., films and sequential art possessing commonly used devices outside the reach of games). However, we are looking at one facet of games: whether the narrative may be deep and meaningful. Yes, this is empirically proven and unfalsifiable. Granted, there is a subjective element, but to state a game cannot provide sociological criticism or thematic depth is absurd. Perhaps, prose may explore aspects of this universe more efficiently than interactive art, but interactive art should not be regarded as "poor man's trash for intellectual food".

I gave some examples of thematically deep video games.

Also, don't tell me to stop pushing it! I push it to the limit!

Notice how I said "still" I'm aware they can be a medium on par with literature and film but they are not. Also funny how I said exactly what you said only with less pointless words.

Video games are not on par at the moment. I don't see why they have to be at the moment. It's a medium still finding it's feet by appealing to the douche bag generation. When it has fully found it's feet then yes it probably will.

Games of today have terrible b-movie plots. The character development of a bazooka joe comic and the emotional depth of a episode of hollyoaks.

I'm aware that some day games break this barrier and that even today some games are breaking some of these barriers but overall it is a medium plague with the fact it's trying to run before it has even walked.

But I'm telling you there are many games that are on par with some literature. Your post was full of contradictions such as, "I'm aware they can be a medium on par with literature and film but they are not," and "I'm aware that some day games break this barrier and that even today some games are breaking some of these barriers." Either they are or they are not capable of powerful narratives, and I gave actual specific examples of games that accomplish this feat. Ludology is a huge field, and the consensus is a good narrative may have as much depth as a good book. Of course, they're both more efficient at accomplishing certain aims (as my last post indicated), but the essay of Earthbound, and the other games I referenced, indicate video games are capable of thematic depth.

You need to play less mainstream games if you're seeking sophisticated narratives. I can name at least 20 video games, a lot of indie, with sophisticated narratives. Also, please stop with the ad hominem attacks such as, "Also funny how I said exactly what you said only with less pointless words." In comparison to me, you've said relatively nothing, not trying to sound rude.

I could generalize any medium. Most films, comic books, and etc. as cliched and uninspired based off a current contemporary trend, but the good ones are rare and stand out. If I say films suck because year 200X had mostly pop trash, then I am being ignorant of all the other good films which preceded that year. You're saying games have a "bad footing" because of one vague (and poor) generalization of current trends.

As I said, video games are a serious business.

 

[Cody211282]

But I'm telling you there are many games that are on par with some literature. Your post was full of contradictions such as, "I'm aware they can be a medium on par with literature and film but they are not," and "I'm aware that some day games break this barrier and that even today some games are breaking some of these barriers." Either they are or they are not capable of powerful narratives, and I gave actual specific examples of games that accomplish this feat. Ludology is a huge field, and the consensus is a good narrative may have as much depth as a good book. Of course, they're both better at accomplish certain aims, but the essay of Earthbound, and the other games I referenced, indicate they are capable of thematic depth.

You need to play less mainstream games if you're seeking sophisticated narratives. I can name at least 20 video games, a lot of indie, with sophisticated narratives. Also, please stop with the ad hominem attacks such as, "Also funny how I said exactly what you said only with less pointless words." In comparison to me, you've said relatively nothing, not trying to sound rude.

I could generalize any medium. Most films, comic books, and etc. as cliched and uninspired based off a current contemporary trend, but the good ones are rare and stand out. If I say films suck because year 200X sucked, then I am being ignorant of all the other good films which preceded that year. You're saying games have a "bad footing" because of one vague (and poor) generalization of current trends.

As I said, video games are a serious business.

I hate to say it but I agree that games have shit for narrative right now, even games with good/decent writing are few and far between, most just set up good atmosphere that is rather easy to do in a game. Honestly if games want to be taken seriously they need to start pushing a few products that make you think and get you emotionally invested.

 

[GnomeThief]

This idea is pretty similar to the GameOverthinker (MovieBob's other internet show over on Screwattack). I'd like to see some school system try it out someday, though to be honest I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

But I'm telling you there are many games that are on par with some literature. Your post was full of contradictions such as, "I'm aware they can be a medium on par with literature and film but they are not," and "I'm aware that some day games break this barrier and that even today some games are breaking some of these barriers." Either they are or they are not capable of powerful narratives, and I gave actual specific examples of games that accomplish this feat. Ludology is a huge field, and the consensus is a good narrative may have as much depth as a good book. Of course, they're both better at accomplish certain aims, but the essay of Earthbound, and the other games I referenced, indicate they are capable of thematic depth.

You need to play less mainstream games if you're seeking sophisticated narratives. I can name at least 20 video games, a lot of indie, with sophisticated narratives. Also, please stop with the ad hominem attacks such as, "Also funny how I said exactly what you said only with less pointless words." In comparison to me, you've said relatively nothing, not trying to sound rude.

I could generalize any medium. Most films, comic books, and etc. as cliched and uninspired based off a current contemporary trend, but the good ones are rare and stand out. If I say films suck because year 200X sucked, then I am being ignorant of all the other good films which preceded that year. You're saying games have a "bad footing" because of one vague (and poor) generalization of current trends.

As I said, video games are a serious business.

I hate to say it but I agree that games have shit for narrative right now, even games with good/decent writing are few and far between, most just set up good atmosphere that is rather easy to do in a game. Honestly if games want to be taken seriously they need to start pushing a few products that make you think and get you emotionally invested.

Let's focus on the good games rather than the bad ones. There are many games with sophisticated narratives. It's a young medium, but there are a lot of good stuff out already.

For example, take Deus Ex or Earthbound (read the essay). You don't need convoluted dialogue in order to have a sophisticated narrative. Furthermore, there are some games with convoluted plots such as Xenogears (not saga) and Planescape: Torment. Planescape: Torment's dialogue is pretty good and immersive.

Also, thematic depth could be expressed through simple yet powerful scenes: take Shadow of the Colossus for example; the game leads the player to question Wander's endeavor during each colossi's dramatic downfall. It gives the mammoth colossi a "humanistic look" as they fall to their deaths; it makes the player question his pursuit as being hedonistic or justified. As you can tell, the interactive element adds a whole other element into the experience of the art.

Or, if you want a really mind-bender, look at Killer 7. The game has different layers of interpretations. These include a psychological, political, and even theological interpretation:

Here is a massive plot analysis courtesy of James Clinton Howell:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/562551/38193

I interpreted the game as being a polemic about the East vs West mentality with some psychological elements spread throughout.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

The fact that the best games you can name are not mainstream PROVES that video games AT THE FUCKING MOMENT are not a medium on par with literature or film. The mainstream of cinema once it had found it's feet was amazing the same goes for books and literature. It's the fact that gaming mainstream is so shit proves to us all how it is not on par AT THE MOMENT.

I honestly don't like your tone and the indignation actually fuels me to make this long post.

1) Persona 2
Allusions to Carl Jung's theory. The collective unconscious plays a huge role in both EP and IS. The urban setting and its cool plot devices, such as rumors becoming a reality, make for a gripping experience. There are a ton of allusions to mythologies also, and the ending with Philemon is very, very symbolic and memorable. The game is like a huge cesspool of the collective unconscious and the narrative is gripping.

2) Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne
The game deals with 4 philosophical ideas of how the new world should be formed. It uses a minimalistic narrative style in order to convey huge philosophical ideas. For example, Shijima's world resembles a Buddhist utopia.

3) Deus Ex
No explanation needed really. The game delves into our preconceptions and how things truly are. You have a huge choice at the end...

Spoiler

Ultimately, the game leaves it up to the player to formulate his own commentary from the events. In the end you have a choice to...

A) Plunge the world into a new dark age by destroying global communication networks, yet reveal the truth
B) Join forces with the Illuminati and influence world affairs from the background
C) Assimilate your mind with a super computer AI and rule the would as a benevolent dictator

Deus Ex does not condemn you for any of those choices with a moral spectrum implemented in the game's code.

4) Soul Revear series
They are known for their high quality voice acting and great stories.

5) Planescape Torment
HAS A TON OF DIALOGUE! Is considered to be a book literally packaged in a game. You'll spend more time reading the incredible dialogue. I recommend this over everything else I recommended.

6) Grim Fandango
I may direct you to a ton of references if you want them.

7) Killer 7
A post-modern story with multiple layers of interpretation.

8) Earthbound
Read the analysis. It's like a Miyazaki film. Do you like Miyazaki? yeah.

9) Shenmue 1 & 2
What a beautiful game. It's more like a game you should experience.

10) ICO
No need to explain why this is here.

11) Shadow of the Colossus

12) Alan Wake
I can link another essay and stuff. We know this one has a good narrative.

13) Silent Hill
I have a friend into Thomas Ligotti and Silent Hill. He believes both have good merit.

14) Xenogears
Heard too many good things to pass this one up.

15) Fallout 2
This is more like "narrative through gameplay". I'm pretty sure Dragon Origins deserves to be here too with its high level of player agency. I can't comment on that one because I haven't played it, but I find Fallout 2 to do a good job showing the moral ambiguity of actiosn. Your actions are portrayed as morally ambiguous rather than good or bad, such as in KoTOR. Rather than the game judging your actions with a moral spectrum (e.g., light and dark side), societies in the games judge you. Sometimes they may even put a bounty on your head or hail you as a saint. Each society has its own ethics, so depending on the specific town, some actions may be condoned whilst others condemned. Rather than a rigid system defining your actions as good or bad, you have society to think of when committing an action. The reinforcer is society, NOT some sort of moral spectrum implemented into the game. The rigid moral dichotomy simply alienates the player's unique set of ethics. Moreover, Fallout 2's Karma system does not indicate morality. It is more of a indication for your current standing in a specific society.

... and so forth.

 

[JEBWrench]

I hate to say it but I agree that games have shit for narrative right now, even games with good/decent writing are few and far between, most just set up good atmosphere that is rather easy to do in a game. Honestly if games want to be taken seriously they need to start pushing a few products that make you think and get you emotionally invested.

You're right. The games that continuously get praised for having the "best writing" do not have the caliber of story that would compare to other media, which is perfectly acceptable for a medium still in its childhood.

For example, take Deus Ex or Earthbound (read the essay). You don't need convoluted dialogue in order to have a sophisticated narrative. Furthermore, there are some games with convoluted plots such as Xenogears (not saga) and Planescape: Torment. Planescape: Torment's dialogue is pretty good and immersive.

I agree, those have good narratives for games. They're not stellar compared to other media.

Gaming is currently comparable to the "OH GOD THAT TRAIN IS MOVING! RUN!" era of film.

 

[King of the Sandbox]

I agree with OP.

It's as valid as any other medium where people make shit up.

Once I played Mario Bros, and laughed as I stomped a mushroom to death, it was art.

When I saw Aeris/Aerith die in Final Fantasy 7, the story became much more serious and emotionally involving, as it shocked and angered me and made me feel a need for revenge, all for a work of fiction, it was art.

When Red Dead Redemption made me care more about the characters of a video game than I have ever cared about the characters in a book or movie, it was art.

Regardless of what anyone says, if something moves you, emotionally, engages you in thought and philosphy, even magical whimsy, it is an art. Games are more like our imaginations than any other format available, as the interactivity allows us to be there, in the tale.

To say it's not art is as pedantic as people saying "Disco wasn't real music" in the 70's. Just because you don't like or understand something, DOES NOT mean that it doesn't move others on a personal level.

The fact that this conversation has been popping up again and again and again lately should lend more than credence than ever to the fact that there's something there, and more people are being moved by these games, their lives shaped in one form or another by engaging this medium. Tons of people, like myself, are associating these games and their impact on us as some of the most memorable moments of our lives. Does that not deserve the same attention and respect as someone whom was moved by Beethoven? Or Arthur C Clark? Or any other artist who has affected someone with their work?

 

[InconceivableTruth]

I agree, those have good narratives for games. They're not stellar compared to other media.

Gaming is currently comparable to the "OH GOD THAT TRAIN IS MOVING! RUN!" era of film.

Let's compare the narratives of games to films because they are the most similar (visual). I would say Deus Ex is better than any sci-fi film I've ever seen. Of course, there are more philosophically intensive prose, but as I've said, all mediums are better at accomplishing certain goals. There are many games with stories on the same level as "art-house films" and the old classics. For example, Persona 2 has power symbolic imagery alluding to a bunch of mythologies and so forth.

It's better to compare the narrative of films and games, and I say video games are not far behind. Soon there will be video game classes like there are film study courses.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I know there are classes for ludology [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludology] (sort of like literary theory but for interactive art - games), but I'm talking about having a core class for video game analyses at college. It could serve as a substitute for a literature class.

I'm playing Persona 2: Innocent Sin right now, and I'm noticing a bunch of allusions to Carl Jung's philosophy. I actually owns one of his books, so I might as well read it while playing it...

Just imagine writing analyses of Deus Ex, ICO, Shadow of the Colosseus, Planescape: Torment, and etc. It'd be awesome. These games have powerful, deep narratives, dude. I'd say they're on the level of Dostoevsky.

Digital Devil Saga, for example, is like the Bhagavad Gita in video game form. Why not play that and read the Bhagavad Gita alongisde it?

Oh, all Video Game 1101 classes must cover Earthbound too. Check out my friend's essay on it [http://phoenixicsepehr.blogspot.com/2009/10/art-guest-essay-on-earthbound.html] for example. It's a prime example of a game with great thematic depth!

I could give more articles like that, even better ones, but you get my point. I feel pretty awesome for being a scholarly video gamer. It reminds me of Red from Pokemon Gold, "Pokemon is serious business. Too busy for mom."

Similarly: "Video games are serious business. Too busy for life."

I remember hearing about a course in videogame at the UTS in Sydney, but whether that was about the overall games themselves or the more computerised aspects to it I'm not exactly certain.

Qantm College in Sydney I'm pretty sure does this, but it is a game design college so it makes sense.

 

[InconceivableTruth]

But you're straight faced honestly telling me that any one game off that list is better than the finest literature or cinema has to offer?

I don't mean to be rude, but you need to read my posts over again.

I SAID THEY ARE CAPABLE OF HAVING POWERFUL NARRATIVES. I never claimed they are better than the world's best writers.

I said each medium is better at accomplishing certain ends. For example, I didn't add Eternal Darkness on that list because I believe it ultimately failed. Yup, Lovecraft is incapable of being adapted into game format or film.

I have my reasons for this, but that requires a whole long essay about literary theory.

 

[Pegghead]

No, video games are for fun and entertainment, as long as there's gameplay that's what they will always be at their core and story, characters and pacing are entirely secondary.

Frankly there's nothing more pretentious I find than somebody going on about how Ico is strictly on par with citizen Kane and the day videogames are brought into classrooms for analysis rather than design is probably the day I stop going to school and start assisting the small legions of guerilla gamers, the pnly remnants of the bygone days when games were played for fun and were almost free of the poor mans over-analyzers.