We have An elective subject called glorious games where we learn game programming, I start it next term.
Many video games have succeeded in giving sophisticated deep narratives. Epic debate.
- Thread starter InconceivableTruth
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I have yet to see one good rebuttal to my points. Cody brought up a good point about the stigma attached to games though (i.g., the need to always have a quest).Deshara said:
As I've said, each medium has its own strengths and weakness, but they have all achieved thematic depth and good narrative at some point.InconceivableTruth said:
Not to be arrogant, but I totally pwned this thread.
Finally! I picked up on the difference of view point about over 9000 posts ago (in the first couple of posts). It was like watching a slow motion train wreck.PayJ567 said:
Oh well, I suppose you've both moved on by now.
OT: Yes, I think the idea of reviewing/analysing games in a highschool course is an awesome/valid idea.
No I don't think it should be it's own course.
I think that if you're told to do an essay deconstructing the narrative/story of a book or film and given the choice of anything once it's passed by the teacher that a game would be an awesome and valid medium to use for that essay, within reason.
I don't think forcing someone to play games is a good idea. I don't think that I, personally, would enjoy this class unless it went like this:
Teacher: Blah blah, essay, blah blah, either book or film etc, blah, you pick and run it by me.
Me: Hey Teach. how about this game it's got the following........
Teacher: I've not played it, I'll see if one of my colleages knows anything about it then I'll get back to you.
Teacher asks colleage who's played it and looks at the task and agrees that the game provides content that could fill the criteria of the assignment. Game is good to go.
That would be awesome. I don't think you should force a kid to play a game they don't like. Reading a book you don't like it bad enough, but at least it's easy.
Is there actually any point arguing with you? You seem pretty set on these ideas. I have a feeling even the most rational argument won't sway you.Just for the record I'm not saying games can't be artistic, if you can say it's art it's art. They aren't art for arts sake though. What I do believe is that there are no games that can match good lit in terms of narrative, and it's not an ideal subject for school.
Okay here goes.
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1. Games have just as good a narrative as movies and could exist without the gameplay part.
2. Gameplay is of crucial importance to the narrative
3. You should separate gameplay and narrative
4. You should use cheat codes to skip through the gameplay.
The problem with games is while they differ in method they can't tell a story that can't be told in a movie or in a book. You think that an RPG morality system is the only was to show moral ambiguity? Because of the need to incorporate gameplay, something for the player to actually play, a game can never tell the same story as a book.
You're probably going to hate me for saying this but they have no cultural significance. Not yet at any rate. I suppose it's conceivable one day they do. There is no Citizen Kane of video games. Australia created it's own identity surrounding the early colonial writings and art. Jules Verne predicted apparently everything. Someone may not read but they still experience the lasting cultural effect of these mediums. Games have just influenced other games. Gamers to but I would argue not in anyway unique to the genre.
I still think it's impractical for a school subject. Due to these reasons and the ones I stated before. One day maybe but I don't think the time is now.
Okay here goes.
You could be right. You clearly have a much greater appreciation for games than I do. I just like playing them. Or maybe I just have a greater appreciation for other media. I'm a english/linguistics major so I'm probably bias since I enjoy books and language more as an art form than I do a video game. Though I will say that good gameplay =/= good story telling. I have doubts that an RPG especially could tell a narrative as effectively as a book. Especially since in order to make key events line up there can't be extreme divergences. And there's definitely no character development. You're playing as you! Any actions you take are conscious and you're removed from the gaming world no matter how immersive the game is.InconceivableTruth said:
Yeah I'm not doing that. I started but the combination of yellow on black plus the fact that I've never played that game. Also that's not an essay. At least as far as I can tell. It's in note form...
I could do that for Eternal Darkness, Shenmue, or whatever, but the reason I don't is because I believe a discussion is enough.
[/quote]
You realise there that you suggested that
1. Games have just as good a narrative as movies and could exist without the gameplay part.
2. Gameplay is of crucial importance to the narrative
3. You should separate gameplay and narrative
4. You should use cheat codes to skip through the gameplay.
The problem with games is while they differ in method they can't tell a story that can't be told in a movie or in a book. You think that an RPG morality system is the only was to show moral ambiguity? Because of the need to incorporate gameplay, something for the player to actually play, a game can never tell the same story as a book.
You're probably going to hate me for saying this but they have no cultural significance. Not yet at any rate. I suppose it's conceivable one day they do. There is no Citizen Kane of video games. Australia created it's own identity surrounding the early colonial writings and art. Jules Verne predicted apparently everything. Someone may not read but they still experience the lasting cultural effect of these mediums. Games have just influenced other games. Gamers to but I would argue not in anyway unique to the genre.
I still think it's impractical for a school subject. Due to these reasons and the ones I stated before. One day maybe but I don't think the time is now.
Speak for yourself. Reading the Great Gatsby was torture and that book sucked and it was very hard to do maybe one of the hardest. Sorry, literature fans but that was like the time I kinda HAD to watch Triple X due to friends or like trying to play Resident evil 1 again on PS1. (I quit 10 mins in - no outside influence there just nostalgia.)StBishop said:
I would say that special effects have ruined the mainstream cinematic artisic appeal. I don't even watch many movies out there today. In the same way that many posters in this thread criticize gaming media, the same arguement can be made toward modern day cinema. The question is, when a medium has reached the threshold as being an acceptable socialogical artform can it ever lose that staus? The answer is no, specifically because "good ones do exist" and I feel that today's modern film should have to lose this right if video games are going to be excluded from it. A good story is a good story.
This is exactly how it should work. Compiled footage of the game. The class room would not have you be required to play it yourself. All the middle action would be cut out as it is only applicable in survival horror mostly, maybe some RPG's. But this can be skimmed over with mention of it so that it has an impact. No need for footage though. If you want to see it, go home and play the game. This in no way should be a hands on course unless the student wants it to, in their free time. No you dont get extra credit for playing the same game at home either. This class already has potential as a bird course as much as any film or literature course does. And yes film and literature courses are easy as hell so long as you actually do the material because it is almost impossible to have a wrong answer without deliberatley doing so and a good bullshitter can easily get on the teachers pet list.Bellvedere said:
I see this class as no less valid than any modern literature or film class and don't understand the scrutiny behind its validity outside of media elitism. I would not run this course alongside Shakespearean literature or classical literture. This is a modern medium and should be ran alongside such. Using classical literature to overshadow this is just being a dick elitist and cockblocking the industry. I hardly doubt Halo, GoW, or COD will make the cut.
Hello OP.
I'm sorry that people do not understand what you are writing... The part about video games having potential rather than actually having already achieved the same level as other mediums(Books, films).
I actually pity that. People can be incredibly infuriating sometimes.
I agree with you, having played the westerns games you mention. The games show promise, and I both think and hope that more mainstream games will become more focused on a good narrative and story, rather than cater to the "douchebagger"-crowd.
I find, for instance, the fact that Mass Effect 2 was massively dumbed down and made even less of an RPG than the first one, and focus even less on the story than the gameplay (compared to the first one) to be a real shame. Then I see potential when I realize Dragon Age: Origins is also released.
I would love to still have Black Isle and Troika around. Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick(I can't remember the title) a long with the aforementioned Planescape: Torment... Those games are, to me, as good as any half-decent movie. The narrative, dialogue and story in PS: Torment is superior to most movies I have seen.
The potential is definitely there, and we can hope games will blossom sooner rather than later. As time passes, eventually the "adult" generation will consist of gamers, and then I envision an awesome time-period.
I'm sorry that people do not understand what you are writing... The part about video games having potential rather than actually having already achieved the same level as other mediums(Books, films).
I actually pity that. People can be incredibly infuriating sometimes.
I agree with you, having played the westerns games you mention. The games show promise, and I both think and hope that more mainstream games will become more focused on a good narrative and story, rather than cater to the "douchebagger"-crowd.
I find, for instance, the fact that Mass Effect 2 was massively dumbed down and made even less of an RPG than the first one, and focus even less on the story than the gameplay (compared to the first one) to be a real shame. Then I see potential when I realize Dragon Age: Origins is also released.
I would love to still have Black Isle and Troika around. Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick(I can't remember the title) a long with the aforementioned Planescape: Torment... Those games are, to me, as good as any half-decent movie. The narrative, dialogue and story in PS: Torment is superior to most movies I have seen.
The potential is definitely there, and we can hope games will blossom sooner rather than later. As time passes, eventually the "adult" generation will consist of gamers, and then I envision an awesome time-period.
I am actually reading your messages. The fact you didn't read the Earthbound essay is a bit ironic.Bellvedere said:
How many times did I state it depends on the INTENT of the game. I'm not going to mark down Halo for its cliched, uninspired story because the game does not aim at giving an in-depth sophisticated narrative. In this sense, the narrative is weighted lower in comparison to what is obviously the game's goal (e.g., fun gameplay, satisfying online player, and etc.) Now, in the case of Heavy Rain, I would lower down the score if I noticed plotholes and poor writing. This is because the game obviously aims or at least tries to give a good narrative.InconceivableTruth said:
For being a fan of linguistics and literature, is reading ONE PAGE painful? It is not in a TRADITIONAL essay format, but it is a very erudite and concise paper/
Let me improve these 4 points:
1. The narrative of a game should be looked at separately from the gameplay
2. Gameplay helps progress the narrative and may be used in innovative ways (such as letting go of your control of Poo in Earthbound -OR- having your comrades mock you for killing too many people in Deus Ex).
3. All components are interconnected (e.g., good prose helps someone enjoy a story more), but depending on the intent of the video game, certain categories should be held in higher regard, such as Heavy Rain example.
In this sense, a video game may succeed in having a sophisticated, thematically deep narrative. I pointed out several games that have succeeded in this such as Deus Ex.
As I've said, each medium has its strengths and weaknesses. Video games are very immersive and many small gameplay changes may produce small, yet not significant, changes to the main narrative. There are also many significant moment in games when your decisions effect the outcome and hugely effect the narrative, as we all know. This is not easily replicable in sequential art, movies, or prose. How could you reproduce the interactive element of games into other mediums?
Similarly, Alan Moore wrote his graphic novels specifically for the medium. This is why he does not like his film adaptations: he is exploring the potentials of his given medium and their uniqueness (i.g., sequential art), so he purposefully made them to be irreproducible in other mediums.
Neither can a film. I just said I don't think Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment is possible to faithfully adapt in any visual medium. I've read Tezuka's adaptation, watched a ~1979 Russian adaptation, and so forth. All of them sucked because they took out the psychological prattle, which is a huge aspect of the novel. To repeat myself, there are strengths and weaknesses of each given medium, but to claim one is better than the other is simply preference. However, all of them are capable, and have succeeded, in giving thoughtful, deep narratives.
People said this about sequential art and now look. My professor had to write a dissertation on Spiegelman's Maus in her pHD class.
I listed many games that have succeeded in delivering thoughtful, deep narratives. Maybe it's unwise to have people play the games, and instead they should watch videos or whatever, but to claim video games are not culturally insignificant, poor at delivering thoughtful, deep narratives, and so forth is ignorant. I gave empirical examples also, so I recommend reading over everything again before responding.
Just my opinion, but to me video games are far beyond books, art, and films. These mediums limit what one can experience, they are all lacking in certain areas. Books have story, art has experience, and films contain both. But what they all lack is interaction. With video games, it contains what the other mediums have, but it has interaction, you can interact with the characters, the story, the world, etc. However, like all forms of art, the quality of it is dependent on the creator. All mediums have their good works, and bad works.
On Topic: A class for video games would be cool, would of been much better than taking classes that teach stuff that will never be used, here's looking at you algebra.
On Topic: A class for video games would be cool, would of been much better than taking classes that teach stuff that will never be used, here's looking at you algebra.
All art helps people in their future.TheTim said:
I was introduced to pantheism and Hindu literature through Digital Devil Saga.
Also, YOU are the loser who can't see potential in a medium. The fact you generalized an entire GROUP of people as being lazy also reveals your stupidity.