I'm pretty sure that's why Martial Arts are called martial arts. They are skills for war.Lieju said:'Art' can be used to mean 'skill', as in 'the art of making friends', or 'The art of war'.
I'm pretty sure that's why Martial Arts are called martial arts. They are skills for war.Lieju said:'Art' can be used to mean 'skill', as in 'the art of making friends', or 'The art of war'.
Perhaps I did misunderstand; I certainly didn't think of social normality (and to be honest I consider what society thinks in this regard to be somewhat irrelevant in this respect). I assumed that 1) you think art should be able to elicit emotions in onlookers (or you wouldn't have brought it up) and 2) that you consider dance a form of art (and therefore able to elicit emotions in onlookers). I know these assumptions are potentially problematic, because you haven't explicitly said that you endorse these viewpoints.barbzilla said:I think you mis-understand me. The reason I say it is questionable is because it wouldn't be considered socially normal to have martial arts elicit emotion in a non-participant. This doesn't mean that I don't think that martial arts are not a form of art. Every other qualifier I can think of is present in martial arts to be considered as such.Jordi said:I never really understand the discussions about what is art and what isn't. First of all, why does it matter? I don't consider being in the same category as painting stuff and making music to be necessarily a good thing. And it's all about your definitions anyway.
It seems a bit strange to claim that books, TV, films and music are art, but video games aren't. Just like it seems strange to claim that martial arts aren't art if you think that dance, gymnastics and theater are. But if you're consistent about your opinions, I have no problem with that.
It seems to me that most art forms have rules though, especially in competitions. Painting is (generally) done with paint, brushes and on a canvas. Writing is done with letters on a two-dimensional surface; you can't really deviate from that (and even if you can, most authors don't). When you perform katas/pumses/tuls in a competition, you cannot deviate from the prescribed techniques, but the way in which you do them is your own. But in other aspects of the sport (e.g. sparring and demonstrations) you are very free in what you do.
Different things elicit emotions in different people. I don't give a crap about paintings or many other traditional arts. But if dance can elicit emotions, then why can't martial arts? You can appreciate the beauty of the practitioners' movements and I'd say fighting is pretty emotional to begin with.barbzilla said:The one questionable aspect of Martial Arts being art is how does it effect the emotion of the onlooker...
It looks like most sports are art as well.barbzilla said:Good news, I don't hate the topic. I do not, however, agree with you on it. Many Martial Arts do fall under the sport category (though more western than eastern as you seem to think), but they are still arts in and of themselves. They are art in the fact that they are interpretive and each artist has his own techniques and moves. Advanced artists utilize many different techniques from different styles found all around the world to achieve a style that is as unique to them as Van Gogh's brush strokes are to him.craftomega said:Its time for another topic that few will accept and many will hate.
I wanted to point out this distinction many classic martial "arts" are in fact not, they are martial sports. Most Asian Martial "Arts" are guilty of this; Taekwondo and Karate are great examples. Art involves the creation of something; it involves imagination and the ability to adapt. Sport involves a pre-created set of rules that one must follow in a physical activity.
Since Many Asian martial arts are based upon a pre-created set of rules that allow for no original ideas or imagination; they cannot be art.
If you want to see a true martial arts look at Krav Maga or western martial arts.
*Note:
Western martial arts have no official title, they are simply a conglomerate of medieval and renaissance style combat that has no fixed rules but only general ideas.
The one questionable aspect of Martial Arts being art is how does it effect the emotion of the onlooker...
The word art comes from the Latin 'Ars, Artis', and at its most basic definition means skill or craft.craftomega said:Its time for another topic that few will accept and many will hate.
I wanted to point out this distinction many classic martial "arts" are in fact not, they are martial sports. Most Asian Martial "Arts" are guilty of this; Taekwondo and Karate are great examples. Art involves the creation of something; it involves imagination and the ability to adapt. Sport involves a pre-created set of rules that one must follow in a physical activity.
Since Many Asian martial arts are based upon a pre-created set of rules that allow for no original ideas or imagination; they cannot be art.
If you want to see a true martial arts look at Krav Maga or western martial arts.
*Note:
Western martial arts have no official title, they are simply a conglomerate of medieval and renaissance style combat that has no fixed rules but only general ideas.
Ever heard of ballet, its and art that involves a series of pre set moves that one must follow in a physical activity. Most of the standard ballets are using the exact same choreography as they did 150 years ago. The steps used in swan lake today are the same as when it was first staged. Ballet is an art so why not martial arts?craftomega said:Its time for another topic that few will accept and many will hate.
I wanted to point out this distinction many classic martial "arts" are in fact not, they are martial sports. Most Asian Martial "Arts" are guilty of this; Taekwondo and Karate are great examples. Art involves the creation of something; it involves imagination and the ability to adapt. Sport involves a pre-created set of rules that one must follow in a physical activity.
Since Many Asian martial arts are based upon a pre-created set of rules that allow for no original ideas or imagination; they cannot be art.
If you want to see a true martial arts look at Krav Maga or western martial arts.
*Note:
Western martial arts have no official title, they are simply a conglomerate of medieval and renaissance style combat that has no fixed rules but only general ideas.
I'm sorry but how?! Yes, I know that Krav Maga is probably one of the best conglomerates of techniques going, but I very much doubt many could call it an 'art' in the typical definition of the word. It's brutal, efficient, practical and deadly... and having said that, just as rule bound as any other martial form because of what its precepts are. And 'western martial arts'? Please, lemme tell you about the first fully codified martial arts manuals, the 'Fechtbuechen', they are just as 'do this, and in this way, with this mindset with your hands like that and feet placed like so' and analogy filled as their Asian counterparts. Difference? Uh, none whatsoever except the language. Even down to the holistic and philosophical elements of why one should practise with a greatsword.craftomega said:If you want to see a true martial arts look at Krav Maga or western martial arts.
craftomega said:Its time for another topic that few will accept and many will hate.
I wanted to point out this distinction many classic martial "arts" are in fact not, they are martial sports. Most Asian Martial "Arts" are guilty of this; Taekwondo and Karate are great examples. Art involves the creation of something; it involves imagination and the ability to adapt. Sport involves a pre-created set of rules that one must follow in a physical activity.
Since Many Asian martial arts are based upon a pre-created set of rules that allow for no original ideas or imagination; they cannot be art.
If you want to see a true martial arts look at Krav Maga or western martial arts.
*Note:
Western martial arts have no official title, they are simply a conglomerate of medieval and renaissance style combat that has no fixed rules but only general ideas.
So much this. Without context, nothing means anything.rob_simple said:I wish people would stop declaring what is and isn't art based on their arbitrary conclusions about a subject with so many different definitions.
Ok, but what if you beat someone with two metal-plates artfully welded together, and do so artfully as well?Jack the Potato said:Martial Arts just rolls off the tongue better than "martial sports." And I'm going to take the "reality-inducing douchebag" route here and say if two bits of sheet-metal welded together at oblique angles can be defined as art, so can punching someone in the face. As long as you do it, ya know, ritzy or whatever.
But I'm generally opposed to defining anything as art, because art is entirely subjective in every respect. Art is dumb.
Okay I guess I will have to make this crystal.Jordi said:Perhaps I did misunderstand; I certainly didn't think of social normality (and to be honest I consider what society thinks in this regard to be somewhat irrelevant in this respect). I assumed that 1) you think art should be able to elicit emotions in onlookers (or you wouldn't have brought it up) and 2) that you consider dance a form of art (and therefore able to elicit emotions in onlookers). I know these assumptions are potentially problematic, because you haven't explicitly said that you endorse these viewpoints.barbzilla said:I think you mis-understand me. The reason I say it is questionable is because it wouldn't be considered socially normal to have martial arts elicit emotion in a non-participant. This doesn't mean that I don't think that martial arts are not a form of art. Every other qualifier I can think of is present in martial arts to be considered as such.Jordi said:I never really understand the discussions about what is art and what isn't. First of all, why does it matter? I don't consider being in the same category as painting stuff and making music to be necessarily a good thing. And it's all about your definitions anyway.
It seems a bit strange to claim that books, TV, films and music are art, but video games aren't. Just like it seems strange to claim that martial arts aren't art if you think that dance, gymnastics and theater are. But if you're consistent about your opinions, I have no problem with that.
It seems to me that most art forms have rules though, especially in competitions. Painting is (generally) done with paint, brushes and on a canvas. Writing is done with letters on a two-dimensional surface; you can't really deviate from that (and even if you can, most authors don't). When you perform katas/pumses/tuls in a competition, you cannot deviate from the prescribed techniques, but the way in which you do them is your own. But in other aspects of the sport (e.g. sparring and demonstrations) you are very free in what you do.
Different things elicit emotions in different people. I don't give a crap about paintings or many other traditional arts. But if dance can elicit emotions, then why can't martial arts? You can appreciate the beauty of the practitioners' movements and I'd say fighting is pretty emotional to begin with.barbzilla said:The one questionable aspect of Martial Arts being art is how does it effect the emotion of the onlooker...
I was saying that if dance can elicit emotions in onlookers, then why can't martial arts? Since fighting is generally fairly emotional (mostly filled with anger and fear)[footnote]Many people will say that the (professional) fighters themselves should suppress those emotions to stay focused, but that doesn't apply to onlookers. Personally, I'd say the fighters themselves should channel their emotions for maximum effect, but they should definitely control them.[/footnote], I'd say that this should transfer to the onlookers (as they tap into their own life experiences). And if emotion isn't elicited through this kind of empathy, onlookers can still feel awe at the beauty and skill of the practitioners' techniques.
I followed you up till the end, in practicing martial arts your mind is not reflecting, it is either empty or projecting. I think most sports are art as well. In fact I think just about anything can be classified as art, provided that art was its intent. Intent is one of the things that truly confuses me about art, and it makes me feel like a hypocrite at times. I think that art should be intentional, otherwise it is just an accident, but I also think things can be perceived as art that were not intended as such. I know that statement makes me look like a moron, but I just can't think of any other way to explain it. It is a very dual natured statement.Coppernerves said:It looks like most sports are art as well.barbzilla said:Good news, I don't hate the topic. I do not, however, agree with you on it. Many Martial Arts do fall under the sport category (though more western than eastern as you seem to think), but they are still arts in and of themselves. They are art in the fact that they are interpretive and each artist has his own techniques and moves. Advanced artists utilize many different techniques from different styles found all around the world to achieve a style that is as unique to them as Van Gogh's brush strokes are to him.craftomega said:Its time for another topic that few will accept and many will hate.
I wanted to point out this distinction many classic martial "arts" are in fact not, they are martial sports. Most Asian Martial "Arts" are guilty of this; Taekwondo and Karate are great examples. Art involves the creation of something; it involves imagination and the ability to adapt. Sport involves a pre-created set of rules that one must follow in a physical activity.
Since Many Asian martial arts are based upon a pre-created set of rules that allow for no original ideas or imagination; they cannot be art.
If you want to see a true martial arts look at Krav Maga or western martial arts.
*Note:
Western martial arts have no official title, they are simply a conglomerate of medieval and renaissance style combat that has no fixed rules but only general ideas.
The one questionable aspect of Martial Arts being art is how does it effect the emotion of the onlooker...
In a sparring competition, the audience (or onlooker) is the crowd of spectators.
In a fight, the audience is whoever you're defending yourself from.
In practice, (especially with internal styles), the audience is yourself.