Yeah, Poe's Law works both ways. This is hardly the most absurd position I've seen someone claim to hold, even just on these forums.RedDeadFred said:
Marvels Jessica Jones is just extreme feminism and blaxploitation (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Telefonegun
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*reads OP, blinks, laughs, reads again, still laughs*
Well, not much to add to the responses, but I'm throwing my hat in the ring with I absolutely disagree with the OP in pretty much every way possible. I laugh only because the OP is ridiculously over-the-top, and if serious I've no words or energy or care to argue against the position. Jessica Jones is a great series, well directed and written and as I've said in other posts back when it was released, somewhat personally touching on (minus the obviously fiction plot points) things I've dealt with either directly or indirectly, so much so that I had to stop watching for a bit to reexamine a few personal things.
Well, not much to add to the responses, but I'm throwing my hat in the ring with I absolutely disagree with the OP in pretty much every way possible. I laugh only because the OP is ridiculously over-the-top, and if serious I've no words or energy or care to argue against the position. Jessica Jones is a great series, well directed and written and as I've said in other posts back when it was released, somewhat personally touching on (minus the obviously fiction plot points) things I've dealt with either directly or indirectly, so much so that I had to stop watching for a bit to reexamine a few personal things.
I read about this recently about people who were paid to go to major websites and sort of argue and start trouble based on scripted talking points. Kind of paid trolls of sorts. It sounded a little strange but this kind of seems like that. This being the first post?
I'm one of those people who gets constantly annoyed when there is some sort of way to on the nose activist messaging in my entertainment(See:FemThor GamerGate References [http://i.imgur.com/ssVLXlN.png]) . Despite that, I loved Jessica Jones. She was a good character, and so were the others. Although absolutely yes you could read this whole thing as a kind of hyper feminist propaganda piece it's well directed to the point where I can't tell really which means to me that this is done well. It was a good show, and if all the things in it really annoy you, then you're being just as overly sensitive as the people you're criticizing and you should stop.
I'm one of those people who gets constantly annoyed when there is some sort of way to on the nose activist messaging in my entertainment(See:FemThor GamerGate References [http://i.imgur.com/ssVLXlN.png]) . Despite that, I loved Jessica Jones. She was a good character, and so were the others. Although absolutely yes you could read this whole thing as a kind of hyper feminist propaganda piece it's well directed to the point where I can't tell really which means to me that this is done well. It was a good show, and if all the things in it really annoy you, then you're being just as overly sensitive as the people you're criticizing and you should stop.
can I have a link to where you got this information from? I would love to see it.Kameburger said:
So it turns out that since I read this, it was debunked as a hoax, it had been a while so I had forgotten where it was from. It was a reddit post that was otherwise discredited as a creative writing piece. Makes my post seem a little like a conspiracy theory, and most of the sites that have articles detailing this kind of thing seem to be not very reputable, or at least not very big outlets.tf2godz said:
But this was the thread:
r/offmychest - I get paid to chat on reddit [https://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/3gk56y/i_get_paid_to_chat_on_reddit/]
Anyway if you start reading around on it, it makes a lot of sense. Creating the illusion of controversy can be a good tactic to drive sales of something. I get suspicious for instance when people report on controversy for black actors playing white roles etc. I'm sure there are cases where this happens but on the other hand I can't prove anything. But this criticism seems like one of those things that's kind of designed to push SJW (Pardon the term) buttons, almost like it was made with a template.
Same here, I hear the accusation for political parties and countries, like Russia planting trolls on English news sites to derail conversations about their foreign policy, there's little proof for how widespread this practice is, but enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that the practice at least exists.tf2godz said:
I can't really see anyone wasting money to pay people to complain about a T.V. show though.
The only plausible thing I can think of would be the studio itself paying people to trash talk the series to draw in curious people that want to see what kind of show would draw that level of ranting. Even then, that seems to be stretching it, that's a massive risk to take for very little return. Much like the viral marketing campaigns that are often exposed and mocked on the internet, I don't think a private company would put traceable money towards that kind of advertising.
It always feels better to think that such opinions must be some sort of fake ruse or trick, that nobody could possibly genuinely believe such things. I don't know if the OP is genuine or not, I don't want to make baseless accusations on only a few posts, if the OP never posts again that will likely be somewhat telling. Speaking as someone that has met people that share beliefs similar to the OP, and by meet I mean face-to-face, not on the internet, I can say that there is at least a very real chance the OP is honest in his opinion, if perhaps a bit hyperbolic.
Spoilers for the full show follow. I tried to be pretty vague in late episode stuff, barring a few of the villain's extra victims:Telefonegun said:
Well the entire story of Jessica Jones is structured around how Kilgrave turns normal people into paranoids shells of themselves, even without directly affecting them. So, Simpson is fairly normal, or at least tries to be, until Kilgrave shows up.
Ambulance driver.
Bus driver.
The family Kilgrave first moves in with.
Hope's father.
The gay couple Kilgrave mind controls.
Now you could argue that the family/couple aren't main characters. But Hope's father is rather important in that episode, as is the Bus driver.
Malcom's whole character arc is about finding redemption, yeah. He falls back on it so many times because he is flawed. He struggles. Jessica forces him into detox.
Now I'm sorry, but if you're watching a story focused around a female heroine in low income and violent area of New York (as established in Daredevil) for normal (I'm assuming you mean Steve Rogers type) white males, you're watching the wrong show. No one is normal around Kilgrave - he emphasizes flaws. And yeah, Luke's the friendly neighborhood bartender. He also has one hell of a violent side (bus driver scene) and a past likely to be explored in his story - notice his eagerness to evade the police. In addition, the blaxpoliation genre of films isn't noted by a lack of "normal white males" - it was noted for using a twisted firm of black 60s/70s culture and black actors in majority of roles to sell tickets to that market. It had nothing to do with archetypes. All of the ones you listed are valid in any form of Cinema - they're story and action tropes, not limited to skin color.
Also, you want a rape scene in the show? Why? What would it add? That is the definition of a wasted, unnecessary scene.
It's pretty clear what happens, and would server only for shock value and wasted minutes. Kilgrave's established as one hell of a disgusting ass by the end of episode 6.
So what if the sex scenes are between consenting adults practicing healthy sex lives? I'd argue they put in a few too many scenes (again, wasting minutes, especially the 3-4 cross episode sequence). It just turns out that sometimes the woman in those events likes being on top.
In addition, you're wrong. The first Luke/Jessica scene has Jessica on the bottom as they banter about whether he'll break her if he goes faster. Jessica isn't in control in that scene. She thinks she is because she has superpowers, but she doesn't know about Luke's condition by that point.
And it's not like the non white male cast has it easy. There's a very dirty and flawed divorce case. Kilgrave even takes a side in it. There's a whole family issue with Kilgrave. Patsy goes throw hell and back.
Ambulance driver.
Bus driver.
The family Kilgrave first moves in with.
Hope's father.
The gay couple Kilgrave mind controls.
Now you could argue that the family/couple aren't main characters. But Hope's father is rather important in that episode, as is the Bus driver.
Malcom's whole character arc is about finding redemption, yeah. He falls back on it so many times because he is flawed. He struggles. Jessica forces him into detox.
Now I'm sorry, but if you're watching a story focused around a female heroine in low income and violent area of New York (as established in Daredevil) for normal (I'm assuming you mean Steve Rogers type) white males, you're watching the wrong show. No one is normal around Kilgrave - he emphasizes flaws. And yeah, Luke's the friendly neighborhood bartender. He also has one hell of a violent side (bus driver scene) and a past likely to be explored in his story - notice his eagerness to evade the police. In addition, the blaxpoliation genre of films isn't noted by a lack of "normal white males" - it was noted for using a twisted firm of black 60s/70s culture and black actors in majority of roles to sell tickets to that market. It had nothing to do with archetypes. All of the ones you listed are valid in any form of Cinema - they're story and action tropes, not limited to skin color.
Also, you want a rape scene in the show? Why? What would it add? That is the definition of a wasted, unnecessary scene.
It's pretty clear what happens, and would server only for shock value and wasted minutes. Kilgrave's established as one hell of a disgusting ass by the end of episode 6.
So what if the sex scenes are between consenting adults practicing healthy sex lives? I'd argue they put in a few too many scenes (again, wasting minutes, especially the 3-4 cross episode sequence). It just turns out that sometimes the woman in those events likes being on top.
In addition, you're wrong. The first Luke/Jessica scene has Jessica on the bottom as they banter about whether he'll break her if he goes faster. Jessica isn't in control in that scene. She thinks she is because she has superpowers, but she doesn't know about Luke's condition by that point.
And it's not like the non white male cast has it easy. There's a very dirty and flawed divorce case. Kilgrave even takes a side in it. There's a whole family issue with Kilgrave. Patsy goes throw hell and back.
It's a story about recovering from trauma, even in the face of it. Going past every established boundary to succeed. So yeah, it makes sense that it features a frail looking woman rising as a private eye. And that it heavily explores themes of PTSD, both from sexual assault and military, without needing to show those events directly (good storytelling). And that it focuses on the problems of minorities in a challenging world. Or that the successful lesbian lawyers are female because it's nice to show someone else can succeed (and avoids immediate Matt Murdoch comparisons). But Hope's story is one of complete tragedy.
Yeah, it's feminist, but in the fact that it has a female character be the main one. Honestly, the writing is vague enough and hero with super strength could have taken the spot, they just used Jessica because they could.
You want the spunky, "normal white male" main character? Watch Daredevil.
The absence of one (which is a false accusation) doesn't make Jessica Jones bad. It makes it different.
And different can be okay.
So yeah. TL;DR You're wrong.
God, you're reaction to Luke Cage Season 1 is going to be hilarious.
I've always found it kind of funny that the group of people screaming about "teh sjw's" and the "pc police" have to reach so far and read too much into things to find stuff to be offended by. Sometimes I guess its really hard to carry around such a huge persecution complex.
Or to put it simply, I'm a hetero white male. I didn't bother to check who was on the creative team behind the show. I didn't look into the backstory of the character to make sure there weren't any "feminist themes" that could trigger me. In short, I wasn't LOOKING for something to be offended by. So what did I see? Another pretty good Marvel miniseries. Because I DON'T have a persecution complex. Because I know there ISN'T any "sjw/feminist conspiracy" trying to... uh, take my balls? (whatever paranoid people think their fairytale antagonist is trying to do, it seems to change from crazy to crazy.)
It's just funny they can't see the (in the incorrect sense anyway) irony. They think some people are TOO easily offended. And yet they strain reality trying to find every little thing they could possibly be offended by. Yes, there are feminists, yes some can be assholes about it. A person CAN however chose not to be bothered by it, considering how every crowd has its share of assholes. Not bothered enough to try and find every single thing that "triggers" their persecution complex.
Or to put it simply, I'm a hetero white male. I didn't bother to check who was on the creative team behind the show. I didn't look into the backstory of the character to make sure there weren't any "feminist themes" that could trigger me. In short, I wasn't LOOKING for something to be offended by. So what did I see? Another pretty good Marvel miniseries. Because I DON'T have a persecution complex. Because I know there ISN'T any "sjw/feminist conspiracy" trying to... uh, take my balls? (whatever paranoid people think their fairytale antagonist is trying to do, it seems to change from crazy to crazy.)
It's just funny they can't see the (in the incorrect sense anyway) irony. They think some people are TOO easily offended. And yet they strain reality trying to find every little thing they could possibly be offended by. Yes, there are feminists, yes some can be assholes about it. A person CAN however chose not to be bothered by it, considering how every crowd has its share of assholes. Not bothered enough to try and find every single thing that "triggers" their persecution complex.
So the show is feminist extremism and terrible? I don't think I'm the target audience, and it doesn't bother me. It shouldn't bother you either, unless Jessica Jones is your fav girl and you were hoping for an actually good show (at which point your arguments would seem strangely misaligned).
There are shows that I like, there are shows that religious conservatives like, there are shows that islamist jihadis like; why not a show that radical feminists like? As long as noone tries to shoehorn that crap into the other categories (which seems unlikely for as long as capitalism is a thing), what's the problem?
(That last question may have seemed rhetorical but it wasn't, I actually want to know what the problem is here).
There are shows that I like, there are shows that religious conservatives like, there are shows that islamist jihadis like; why not a show that radical feminists like? As long as noone tries to shoehorn that crap into the other categories (which seems unlikely for as long as capitalism is a thing), what's the problem?
(That last question may have seemed rhetorical but it wasn't, I actually want to know what the problem is here).
First thing I thought of when I saw this thread. I'm trying not to spoil the show for myself so I only skimread a few posts. I assume that tweet is correct though.
Yeah, basically.
I mean, all the characters have flaws, usually fairly huge ones, so it's not some Strong Female Hero show, but in a nutshell the tweet is 100% accurate.
I mean, all the characters have flaws, usually fairly huge ones, so it's not some Strong Female Hero show, but in a nutshell the tweet is 100% accurate.
Ah, no.
There are places where I'm willing to countenance the idea that a desire to promote a feminist ideal has weakened the over-all plot or characterization. Jessica Jones isn't one of them.
There are too many deeply flawed female characters for that to be a credible claim. Hogarth is a sociopath. Robyn is nuts- and the interplay between her and Reuben suggests that they're not merely twins, but two halves of a functional human being. Hope divides most of her screen time between near-catatonia and blaming the wrong people. Jessica Jones is a self-loathing, violent alcoholic.
Conversely, Luke Cage comes across as one of the more admirable and self-contained characters in the show, and Kilgrave's father, Albert, appears to be a thoroughly decent human being in the limited time we're allowed to spend with him.
The lead is female, the strongest and most consistent relationship is between that female lead and her best friend, and the villain is male. I don't think overlaying assumptions of sexism onto that has much basis.
There are places where I'm willing to countenance the idea that a desire to promote a feminist ideal has weakened the over-all plot or characterization. Jessica Jones isn't one of them.
There are too many deeply flawed female characters for that to be a credible claim. Hogarth is a sociopath. Robyn is nuts- and the interplay between her and Reuben suggests that they're not merely twins, but two halves of a functional human being. Hope divides most of her screen time between near-catatonia and blaming the wrong people. Jessica Jones is a self-loathing, violent alcoholic.
Conversely, Luke Cage comes across as one of the more admirable and self-contained characters in the show, and Kilgrave's father, Albert, appears to be a thoroughly decent human being in the limited time we're allowed to spend with him.
The lead is female, the strongest and most consistent relationship is between that female lead and her best friend, and the villain is male. I don't think overlaying assumptions of sexism onto that has much basis.
Honestly, I didn't even catch on to the feminist vibes until the last couple episodes. It's a great show with great characterization; the OP seems pretty knee-jerk (which everybody seems to agree on).
To people saying "Of course it's feminist, it's not for me, just don't watch it", I think you guys should at least give the show a chance. I mean, the word 'feminist' makes me grind my teeth, but I still greatly enjoyed it.
To people saying "Of course it's feminist, it's not for me, just don't watch it", I think you guys should at least give the show a chance. I mean, the word 'feminist' makes me grind my teeth, but I still greatly enjoyed it.
For me, the idea of equality between the sexes in regards to social and cultural biases is great. I'm just not personally interested in a story about a superheroine PI. But I was interested in seeing what this thread was all about. It seems to be an over-reaction, I guess. I'd suggest the OP just not watch this anymore, if they really feel that way about it.Vahir said:
Skimmed some of this thread. Its damn hard and painful to read.
What I took away from it is apparently David Tennant was the big bad guy? I'm always equally pleased and saddened to see the main villain is played by a Brit. Because on the one hand it guarantees solid acting roles for Brits but on the other...damn, guys, you really seem to have some hang ups on us Brits being the big evil doers. X-D
Is it the classy accents or what?
What I took away from it is apparently David Tennant was the big bad guy? I'm always equally pleased and saddened to see the main villain is played by a Brit. Because on the one hand it guarantees solid acting roles for Brits but on the other...damn, guys, you really seem to have some hang ups on us Brits being the big evil doers. X-D
Is it the classy accents or what?
You aren't the only one , i want the agree with everything you said. However, double standards and social rules stipulates that speaking against women,in any circumstance,such as a television show such as this one, with proper examples and valid arguments, is a big no-no and will be met with scorn and ridicule. Especially on this site full of holier-than-thou posters and white knights, your words will fall upon deaf ears.Telefonegun said:WARNING! Series spoilers of course. WARNING!
Before anyone thinks me as a prime example of male chauvinist, I don't mind female protagonist when done right(femshep>maleshep). Marvels Jessica Jones protagonist isn't done right. More or less like the whole script/directing is just terrible exploitation.
The series has 3 white male main charaters that are all somewhat flawed or bad. The main antogonist Kilgrave is the "epithome of white male" a English man, a colonist, a person with no morality, who's victims are mostly women, homosexuals and colored. Next is Reuben a silly, bit retarded white male who is in love with the female protagonist and is totally dependent of the care of his sister (Quote from the series "He coulnd't even tie his shoelaces without me!") Then there is the white male "hero" Simpson who is basically first a good but bit simple cop that falls victim to Kilgrave. After surviving that he has the most sane and logical solution to end Kilgrave, but after the female protagonist messes up Simpon turns out to be a shady ex-blacops dopehead and murdering psychopath, who thinks he's doing good deeds by killing innocents. This all for the female watchers to feel superior and enpowered when every white male charater in the series are flawed.
The blaxploitation is just so obvious that it made watching Marvels Jessica Jones grinch whorty, a bad flashback to the heydays of 60-70's films with black protagonists. Every black character is either a victim of Kilgrave or hero or both. Malcom is black a heroic ex-victim that helps female protagonist and other victims of Kilgrave after Jessica helps him. Malcom is trustworthy and good person. Luke Cage is the main black hero, a trustworthy, good person who has superpowers and his blackwife Reva was also victim of Kilgrave. Clemons is a trustworthy and good black police officer that falls victim to first to Kilgrave and then to the white male "hero" Simpson.
The female characters are all somewhat positive that don't have much negative traits. Jessica Jones is the supertrong protagonist, a "ex-hero" whos main "flaw" is that she can't bring herself to kill Kilgrave and that creates more and more victims. Jessica is extremely white female, with black hair, black leather jacket,black boots and with black sense of humour. Jessicas best friend is white female Trish who is famous, successful and rich radiohost. Trish is also heroic (learns krav maga), ex-victim of Kilgrave and she is trustworthy person with good moral compass.
All the rest female characters(white or black) are more or less same: lesbian Hogarth a successful lawyer who falls victim to Kilgrave. Pam is female secterary who falls victim to Kilgrave. Wendy Hogarth a female doctor who is good samaritan that keeps a free hospital for poors. Wendy falls victim to Kilgrave, Do'h!. Robyn a female that takes care of his retarted brother and falls victim to Kilgrave.
Then there is the series main victim: Hope. She is innocent, beautiful, sporty country girl who ends up killing her parents, spending her time in the series at jail hell and in the end ends up hero killing herself so that the protagonist has strengt to finally kill the antogonist: A psychopath white male.
Somehow when checking the IMDB page for Marvels Jessica Jones it didn't surpise me that the series creator, most writers and the director are all female. I can't believe that I'm the only one seeing this?
Even when the creators have gone for more realistic New York look and feel, curse words like "fuck" don't show up even once. That isn't very realistic. Note that word "fuck" is often recarded as a mascular, male used, antifeminist and vulgar swearword. Also in the sex scenes a white male is never on top. It's always the female who is on top or the black male (Luke Cage).
Even when the antogonist rapes women, none of these scenes are shown only talked about. The sexual intercourse scenes in the series that are shown the female are always in total control. You can compare this to better written series like GoT.
edit. even the captcha was "yes, ma'am".
,
It's interesting this thread popped up a day or so ago. Last night I'm looking at twitter while NBC is airing "The Wiz." And I see several convo's popping up with Wiz hashtags. And there were ACTUALLY people calling NBC, the writers and producers, and the musical itself "racist."
That's right, because of it's all black cast... it's racist. I remember thinking to myself "there's a thread on escapist right now that reminds me of what I'm seeing now.
Mumble mumble, something something "don't wanna live on this planet anymore meme...
That's right, because of it's all black cast... it's racist. I remember thinking to myself "there's a thread on escapist right now that reminds me of what I'm seeing now.
Mumble mumble, something something "don't wanna live on this planet anymore meme...