Mary Sues! *Shakes fist*
- Thread starter Froggy Slayer
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QFTTakerFoxx said:
Pretty much worthless as a protagonist from the end of the second book on. The only interesting character in the rest of the series was Nicci, and then they stuff her in the corner for the epilogue. Great, real great.
It's sad, because I still love the first book. Even like the second book to a degree. After that it's just Goodkind jerking off.
I still think the pages upon pages of moralizing was worse though. Yes, I get it, Atheists = good, religion = bad. You don't have to spend 50+ pages EVERY BOOK banging on about that.
*sigh* such a waste of a series... In capable hands it could have been so good.
I don't really see how Max Payne is a Mary Sue, considering that he constantly fucks up at every turn and is so flawed that his imperfections far outweigh his actual merits.Binnsyboy said:
He's basically the exact opposite of a Mary Sue.
I know it's probably to early to call, but I'm gonna call it anyway. I can't resist... sorry.
They still have a chance to prove me wrong.
They still have a chance to prove me wrong.
DON'T YOU BRING THAT EVIL IN HERE! Why would you bring that up? Argh it's horrible.Eclpsedragon said:I know it's probably to early to call, but I'm gonna call it anyway. I can't resist... sorry.
They still have a chance to prove me wrong.
To quote Spoony, 'BEETRRAAAYYAAAAAALLLL! BE-TRAYAL! THEY BETRAYED ME! THIS GAME SUUUUUUUUUUCKS!
I don't know, she's kind of a ***** and other characters acknowledge her as such.Devoneaux said:
I'm surprised he's not in here sooner, if any character fits the definition both classic and otherwise it's him.Froggy Slayer said:
Superman? ...I haven't read much Superman recently, the most recent Superman thing I've seen is Superman and Batman Apocalypse, but certainly in the Christopher Reeve series and the reboot/remake thing, he more or less exactly fits the bill, right? I mean sure he's an orphan of a different world and Kryptonite is like bad-stuff-don't-touch, but... that's not a character flaw.
I did read the New 52 Justice League, though, now that I think about it, and his major flaw seemed to be that he was a Mary Sue. So that invalidates that I s'pose.
Thing is, "The Doctor" is not one character, but rather eleven characters. Sure they have sort of an arc, but mostly Mary Sue-ness is attributed towards any one incarnation of the Doctor - or rather, one incarnation of the Doctor. David Tennant's. I'd agree if the Doctor was the same character over forty plus years and was, as you analogize, "leveling up," but to stick with the metaphor, the Doctor really does just re-roll each regeneration. As far as I'm (and fanfiction) is concerned, the Doctor is eleven different characters and "Mary Sue-ness" should be applied to each incarnation separately where applicable.
I did read the New 52 Justice League, though, now that I think about it, and his major flaw seemed to be that he was a Mary Sue. So that invalidates that I s'pose.
Then David Tennant happens and his Sue-ness is reinstated.FalloutJack said:
Thing is, "The Doctor" is not one character, but rather eleven characters. Sure they have sort of an arc, but mostly Mary Sue-ness is attributed towards any one incarnation of the Doctor - or rather, one incarnation of the Doctor. David Tennant's. I'd agree if the Doctor was the same character over forty plus years and was, as you analogize, "leveling up," but to stick with the metaphor, the Doctor really does just re-roll each regeneration. As far as I'm (and fanfiction) is concerned, the Doctor is eleven different characters and "Mary Sue-ness" should be applied to each incarnation separately where applicable.
This shows the difference between an escapist character and a blatant Mary Sue. Yes, Original Dante was ridiculous sometimes, but he was well characterised enough for you to sympathise with him. New Dante is just a blatant author avatar.Eclpsedragon said:I'm surprised he's not in here sooner, if any character fits the definition both classic and otherwise it's him.Froggy Slayer said:
Overpowered (he's an angel/ demon half-breed, at least the original had some human thrown in)
Blatent self insertion
Well, it's kind of generous to call the Courier an actual character, because it has no backstory (apart from that one thing in Lonesome Road and a couple of dialogue options) and no set personality.Combine Rustler said:
Okay, what you said is true, but most player characters in any game are starting to resemble gods when they're getting closer to the maximum level.
Not really. I mean yes, ostensibly he is perfect, but at least in the newer series' he is very scaled back so that others can get some screentime and therefore when he Stu-s it up you're not sick of it and it's awesome.Andy of Comix Inc said:
Also helps that he's so damn stubborn about being wrong on Megatron.
Optimus: Megatron can totally be reformed and we can end this peacefully.
Everyone else (even Starscream): Optimus for f-
Optimus: REFORMED! PEACEFULLY!
I've generally given up on there being any interesting main protagonists. The other characters are often far more interesting.
Is having a strong resolve really a negative? I mean maybe he's right about Megatron, huh? He could, like, just have his wires in backwards or something. Totally a thing, by the way. I'm super-versed in Transformers lore. (Well. I've played the first half of War for Cybertron. ...shut up.)Amethyst Wind said:
But I accept that if he's out of the spotlight so much then that reduces the impact of his perfectosity and makes it more interesting when he's on-screen being perfect. Kinda like how Captain Planet only shows up at the end of each episode and stuff. I can't attest to the validity of your claim that he's scaled back, but I'll agree with it. He seems more like a reluctant leader in War for Cybertron anyway, like a less-than-perfect guy who wants to do the best damn job he can, so... yeah, okay, I'll trust that.
Actually, I think Captain Planet counts as a big fucking Mary Sue.
Yeah I'm going with Captain Planet.
Jesus and Superman. ?Nuff said.
Son Gokuu from Dragon Ball is because, no matter how many progressively selfish and idiotic decisions he makes, it?s always dismissed because ?aww, that?s just how naïve, energetic Gokuu is!? and it always miraculously works out in the end. Seriously, look at the shit he pulls in the Boo arc, yet he still gets to put the finisher on Boo with the Genki-Dama, a technique that?s never fucking worked until then.
Batman is definitely not a Mary Sue because it?s repeatedly made a point of that, despite his ?no killing? rule, he?s a psychologically disturbed man who dresses up as a bat and fights criminals as a method of venting out his rage and frustration over his parents? deaths.
*SPOILERS*
In the second film, he inadvertently ends up killing his father and dooming his mother to be married to abusive bully Biff due to his own greed. Not to mention that, in all three films, he has a temper, especially whenever Biff calls him a ?chicken? or ?yellow belly?.
And remember that he?s uneducated, had family problems, and fell right down the ladder back to his house in Philadelphia in Rocky V.
Son Gokuu from Dragon Ball is because, no matter how many progressively selfish and idiotic decisions he makes, it?s always dismissed because ?aww, that?s just how naïve, energetic Gokuu is!? and it always miraculously works out in the end. Seriously, look at the shit he pulls in the Boo arc, yet he still gets to put the finisher on Boo with the Genki-Dama, a technique that?s never fucking worked until then.
Batman is definitely not a Mary Sue because it?s repeatedly made a point of that, despite his ?no killing? rule, he?s a psychologically disturbed man who dresses up as a bat and fights criminals as a method of venting out his rage and frustration over his parents? deaths.
Not really. He?s just a normal teenage boy who?s out of depth and, before going back in time, didn?t have confidence in his band?s performance at his school.SirBryghtside said:
*SPOILERS*
In the second film, he inadvertently ends up killing his father and dooming his mother to be married to abusive bully Biff due to his own greed. Not to mention that, in all three films, he has a temper, especially whenever Biff calls him a ?chicken? or ?yellow belly?.
Rocky isn?t a Mary Sue because he?d always been an underdog whose cornerstone of his success was his insane durability and the fact that his coach (the old guy played by Burgess Meredith) revealed in Rocky III that he?d been pitting him against weaker opponents so he?d uphold his title. And remember that he lost against Apollo in their first match, and only won against Drago in Rocky IV because he got a lucky shot in that cut his eye and temporarily stunned him.SirBryghtside said:
And remember that he?s uneducated, had family problems, and fell right down the ladder back to his house in Philadelphia in Rocky V.
I'm going to requote bothe of you because it needs to be said.Alterego-X said:
Some people define perfect author insert characters as Mary Sues, others define characters which are implausible, others define any character who wins in the end (Come on guys, most Western stories fit this one), others define one without any character flaws (The worst definition for it I've seen used).
There's no way this doesn't devolve into long chains of trying to work out what a mary sue is why everything isn't one.
As even TVTropes says: "TV Tropes Wiki doesn't get to set what the term means; the best we can do is capture the way it is used. Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature. "
Also, come on. Ash Ketchum, The Doctor, and Marty McFly clearly aren't. #1) Is there even enough of a setting to describe it as all about him? Nevertheless, he's got clear flaws and tends to fail. Yes, the heroes usually prevail. That's generally what happens. It sucks, but underdogs aren't what they're talking about.
#2) Maybe the later ones could sort of be counted... I guess? But if you've ever seen any of the earlier ones from the original run, hardly. And, as many have pointed out, characters becoming more and more powerful or vital to a setting is not Author-insertion OP nonsense. NEXT!
#3) Really? Marty McFly?
1) Story: Not really focused on him. The tendancy of these things is that the MS is the focus of the story, and all story driven events. Most of us can probably agree that that's not really the case here.
2) Special plot powers: Nope.
3) Perfect? I don't see how he's depicted as perfect. Not having blatent character flaws != Perfect.
Remember: This term originally described a character inserted into a familiar setting, whilst incongruent with the setting in specific ways, and generally having the story arcs specifically revolve around them. So calling Mary Sue on characters that were written with a setting's going to be pretty hard...