Mass Effect 2: Arrival DLC (Confirmed release date and new screens)

[Scorched_Cascade]

Argh! The day I delete my ME DLC from my memory stick they announce more. To re-download I go.

Undercover operative? They may as well have just said "Kaiden/Ashley". You know, the ones that were working for the military undercover back in that colony.

 

[DVS Storm]

Holy shit I just jizzed my pants. I can't wait!!!

 

[Kingsnake661]

The DLC seems pretty good, but at the same time "Mass Effect 2" received very mixed reception from the actual gamers, who became a lot louder about Bioware's design trends with "Dragon Age 2". "Mass Effect 2" sold well because of the first game, and a lot of people making the complaints about it had already purchused it, so their numbers didn't really affect sales, also, assuming it was a "one off" thing, the rage wasn't quite as extreme.

I'm not going to argue about the mechanics, and whether they were good or bad, however I expect EA/Bioware to push "Mass Effect 3" back from the time frame they had so far presumed. The insert in "DA 2" was before "Dragon Age Rage" which has included a lot of criticisms over "Mass Effect 2" as well.

Good news on the DLC, but I wouldn't be holding your breath for the third game, I'd actually be expecting it late next year instead of late this year. I have no evidence to support this at the moment, but I'd imagine Bioware realizes it can't afford another rage incident and needs to make sure the game is of decent quality, and what the consumers actually want.

Ah, this whole dragon rage thing is being really over blown. And, from what i can tell, it's not hurt DA's sales much, if at all. It's a sucesses. And ME2, i think there were mermers of discontent a bit when it was relased because of the changes, but, it's sold very well, won, tons of awards, and made most people top games of 2010 lists. I can't see see bioware delaying it for any other reason then they need too to make a quality game. The fans are still buying there product. And even though i hear DA2 was a rush job, from the reviews i've read, it's more then "decent" in quality.

I do love how, if you make a sequal too much like the original, your just trying to cash in on it's sucess and need to be more creative, but if you try and make improvements and change it too much, you've "ruined" or "sold out" your product. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. *shrug*

Right now we're in a situation where most of the sales for a game take place right after the release. "Slow burn" successes are not really all that much of a factor anymore. A game gets promoted, released, and then it's success or failire is determined by that numbers, and then they move on to their next game in the pipe.

The problem with this is that when your dealing with a big franchise, with a lot of promotion, even a bad game that is not being well received can move a lot of copies and make a lot of money. This is why some truely awful games that were promoted well have sold well enough to get sequels in defiance of all logic.

The situation with games like "Mass Effect 2" and "Dragon Age 2" is that the people who are complaining are people who already bought the game (and on PC can't return it). Bioware has their money already, and thus when looking at their sales they don't see the "paid for the game, but didn't care for it" demographic. Just like situations where a sucky game can sell tons of copies, but then see most of them turned in used in record time. I seem to remember youtube videos of guys in the back room of a gamestop building houses and such from stacks
of unpopular games that have been returned within 48 hours.

It comes down to questions why a game that has a positive critical reception won't get a sequel, but something that was highly promoted trash with a gimmick like the "50 Cent" games do get sequels. The Escapist has covered this in the past.

The point is that gaming companies that go entirely by sales, and don't pay attention to what people who bought their product are saying, wind up hurting themselves. To be honest I think part of their problem was that they convinced themselves that "Mass Effect 2" really was received that well, and tried to make "Dragon Age 2" more like it, along with the rather sloppy design this wound up blowing up in their face because they only listened to what they wanted to hear.

Whether I'm right or not in my predictions is something only time will tell.

Mass Effect 2 sold like hotcakes it's first 2 weeks, but, like you said, people *may* have bought it and regreted it. But, it rerelased a full year later on the PS3 and it's sales were really pretty good at that time too. One would figure if it wasn't that well recived, it wouldn't have sold that well on the PS3 relase a year after people had time to let the newness ware off. Not to mention, i've yet to really read a bad review of it. And the list of awards its won is, impressive.

I think your oversetamating how many people were angry over it. It's easy to do on the internet, most people really only take the time to go and rant and rave on a companys website when they are unhappy. Forums / fan sites make bad indecatiors of how a game is being recived by the public. They make it seem like everyone hates the product, when, in reality, the few houndred people on them sights make up a tiny fraction of the games total market.

I think it time this will prove to be the case with DA2. I think, with time, it'll be show that yeah, there were people who didn't like it, but, the majority of players will approve of it. The only places i really see DA2 hate is here, and a few other bioware related forums. Again, not really a good indecator of how the public at large is really reacting to the game. And it seems to be dieing down a bit, around about the time the game is topping charts in the UK, i belive. *shrug* Like you said, time will tell forsure.

 

[Jimbo1212]

What the hell happened to good old days where devs would either:
a) Release the game completed
b) If not, then release an expansion pack with everything else on it for a reasonable price.

All the ME2 DLC is probably worth more then the game itself now...

 

[Therumancer]

I suspect that the message might have gotten through this time, because it's hard to ignore. Only time will tell what happens, but I would not be surprised if ME3 is pushed back. I doubt they will turn it into a massively hardcore RPG, but I think they are at least going to be looking for some middle ground between 1 and 2.

What message? All I saw was a few people whining with the same old same old shit like 'dumbing down' and 'it's a TPS, not an RPG'. And surprise surprise, those are the same people that complained about DA2, even to the point of actually raging about it. I don't think BioWare really cares about those people anymore. They obviously don't like their products, and yet there are more than enough people who do. Why would they cater to the first group?

I have no doubt they will try to accomplish the best balance of features from both ME1 and 2 and implement that into ME3. But they will do that because they want to make the best game they possibly can, and not because you or anyone else sent any kind of significant 'message'.

Well yes, it will be done because of the message the community sent about what the best possible game is.

I'll also say that your correct, that it is a lot of the same people that were involved in both sets of complaints. It's a matter of how those people have been being perceived. Bioware and a lot of people who genuinely liked the changes would have you believe that they represent a tiny minority of trolls and contrarians. That only a few people are opposed to them dumbing down the game, and going in that direction. Right now I think we're seeing a demonstration that it's not a small group of people, and it's quite likely they have the numbers entirely wrong based on what they wanted to see. A lot of the opposition were laid back compared to the "I luv Mass Effect 2, I luv Bioware" fanboys that they listened to, few went out to do anything overt. With Dragon Age 2 though, being ignored convinced a lot of people to step it up, and you see how the numbers break down by the user ratings for the game being tanked. What's more after the whole "Hawke" thing, I think your also dealing with a situation where a lot more people were bracing themselves to express their displeasure.

The current situation is one where the game has sold pretty well, but then again the people making a lot of the complaints are people who bought the game and didn't like where it went. The sales figures don't show what the actual reception of the customers who bought it thought, and that's why so many bad, but well promoted games get sequels (which has been explained on The Escapist before). You know, people wonder "why did they ever decide to make a second 50 cent game?" the answer to that is that the game sold, and the numbers don't account for the number of people who swamped gamestop with returns shortly after purchuse. As I mentioned in another response, there have been jokes about this with gamestop employees taping themselves doing stupid things with the sheet number of copies of some terrible games that saw massive returns while they still had a decent trade in value.

On an unrelated note, I think that's also a part of the used game business that the gaming industry frequently doesn't look at when it whines about how much money it's losing. One of the big risks is that when a crummy game is released, Gamestop buys them back for used sales, and typically there is a window before their administration realizes what is going on and sets the buyback price at the level of dirt. A lot of money can be lost by buying back games that just don't sell.

 

[TilMorrow]

The Arrival? Arrival of what? Hmmm...
The Arrival of "I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favourite store on the Citidal."
Or am I getting it wrong and it's really the Reapers coming to chill with Shepard over a bag of red sand?

I also want to fight another 'Shadow Broker'. Back to creating a new ME2 save!

 

[Therumancer]

Mass Effect 2 sold like hotcakes it's first 2 weeks, but, like you said, people *may* have bought it and regreted it. But, it rerelased a full year later on the PS3 and it's sales were really pretty good at that time too. One would figure if it wasn't that well recived, it wouldn't have sold that well on the PS3 relase a year after people had time to let the newness ware off. Not to mention, i've yet to really read a bad review of it. And the list of awards its won is, impressive.

I think your oversetamating how many people were angry over it. It's easy to do on the internet, most people really only take the time to go and rant and rave on a companys website when they are unhappy. Forums / fan sites make bad indecatiors of how a game is being recived by the public. They make it seem like everyone hates the product, when, in reality, the few houndred people on them sights make up a tiny fraction of the games total market.

I think it time this will prove to be the case with DA2. I think, with time, it'll be show that yeah, there were people who didn't like it, but, the majority of players will approve of it. The only places i really see DA2 hate is here, and a few other bioware related forums. Again, not really a good indecator of how the public at large is really reacting to the game. And it seems to be dieing down a bit, around about the time the game is topping charts in the UK, i belive. *shrug* Like you said, time will tell forsure.

The factor your considering here, and an aspect of this whole "Dragon Age Rage" thing is information control. A company is going to present their product as being successful and well received to convince people otherwise not aware of it to buy the product, even if it's really failing. You never see advertising saying "our product is hated by 90% of users, but come buy it anyway, it's actually really good... honest". That's why there is so much contreversy over game companies paying off professional reviewers, and companies using shills to increase user ratings. Someone who researches a product by looking at the reviews and scores (which massive numbers of people do) can be lead to a totally differant impression than what the case actually is.

The PS-3 success of "Mass Effect 2" involves a lot of things. For one, there is whole console rivalry aspect of things and the PS3 crowd simply being happy to get a much-hyped game that was previously a console exclusive. What's more a lot of them aren't following the details of the conflicts when they game was first released, because it had nothing to do with them, they are an after-market. What's more given the passage of time, a lot of people who were originally upset have moved on to other games, and aren't all that excited about rushing off to badmouth the game for another console. Especially seeing as with "Mass Effect 2" the opposition was fairly laid back about things, ignoring them is part of why the current "Dragon Age" situation has so many people being more aggressive this time. If DA2 was held back form a market, and released after the fact, I think the rage would follow it a lot more than the criticisms of ME2.

Honestly, I admit I haven't followed ME2 on the PS-3. I'm sure people will say it's been being well received, but at the same time to know I'd have to be immersed in that community. Bioware can claim whatever they want, and for those of us who aren't there, we pretty much have to take their word for it, and that's part of the problem.

The PS-3 community also never had the first game to my knowlege, so as a result it also isn't in a position where there are many dedicated users who could compare the games.

 

[PixieFox]

Excellent, another reason for me to take another replay. Also I should grab Overlord at some point, I suppose, since I've got the others. The non-story DLC does not interest me.

YES. Seriously, if you have not yet played Overlord, you really must. I was skeptical about the DLC, too, initially, but it is so worth it. I cried at the end of that mission; it is so deep, and that particular side-story really enriched my playing experience.

 

[Evilsanta]

Bioware already ownds my soul so I am forced[/] compeled to buy this.

As long as it is as good as the Lair of The Shadow Broker I am happy.

 

[Bags159]

Wait, bioware charges for DLC? I guess I'm just spoiled from playing VALVe games, but that seems a bit evil.

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

Pffffffffffft. Arrival of what? Giant, sentient spaceships that were waiting in dark space for thousands of years? We have dismissed that claim.

You fool the attack on the citadel was not an isolated attack, when will the council learn!

 

[Nimcha]

I suspect that the message might have gotten through this time, because it's hard to ignore. Only time will tell what happens, but I would not be surprised if ME3 is pushed back. I doubt they will turn it into a massively hardcore RPG, but I think they are at least going to be looking for some middle ground between 1 and 2.

What message? All I saw was a few people whining with the same old same old shit like 'dumbing down' and 'it's a TPS, not an RPG'. And surprise surprise, those are the same people that complained about DA2, even to the point of actually raging about it. I don't think BioWare really cares about those people anymore. They obviously don't like their products, and yet there are more than enough people who do. Why would they cater to the first group?

I have no doubt they will try to accomplish the best balance of features from both ME1 and 2 and implement that into ME3. But they will do that because they want to make the best game they possibly can, and not because you or anyone else sent any kind of significant 'message'.

Well yes, it will be done because of the message the community sent about what the best possible game is.

I'll also say that your correct, that it is a lot of the same people that were involved in both sets of complaints. It's a matter of how those people have been being perceived. Bioware and a lot of people who genuinely liked the changes would have you believe that they represent a tiny minority of trolls and contrarians. That only a few people are opposed to them dumbing down the game, and going in that direction. Right now I think we're seeing a demonstration that it's not a small group of people, and it's quite likely they have the numbers entirely wrong based on what they wanted to see. A lot of the opposition were laid back compared to the "I luv Mass Effect 2, I luv Bioware" fanboys that they listened to, few went out to do anything overt. With Dragon Age 2 though, being ignored convinced a lot of people to step it up, and you see how the numbers break down by the user ratings for the game being tanked. What's more after the whole "Hawke" thing, I think your also dealing with a situation where a lot more people were bracing themselves to express their displeasure.

You keep saying there are so many people displeased, and there are indeed a lot of people raging on these forums. The problem is, they just don't have any substantial arguments. 'Dumbing down' is already such a tiresome cliché that is has lost all its value. The point for me is, it is ok to dislike changes made to a sequel opposed to its predecessor. What's not ok is proclaiming the changes to be 'dumbing down' the game just because you need to feel superior somehow. It's almost completely a matter of opinion, but by belittling the people who do enjoy the changes you're trying to make it seem like that's not the case and that you're the 'smart' one. That is my major gripe.

 

[Kingsnake661]

Mass Effect 2 sold like hotcakes it's first 2 weeks, but, like you said, people *may* have bought it and regreted it. But, it rerelased a full year later on the PS3 and it's sales were really pretty good at that time too. One would figure if it wasn't that well recived, it wouldn't have sold that well on the PS3 relase a year after people had time to let the newness ware off. Not to mention, i've yet to really read a bad review of it. And the list of awards its won is, impressive.

I think your oversetamating how many people were angry over it. It's easy to do on the internet, most people really only take the time to go and rant and rave on a companys website when they are unhappy. Forums / fan sites make bad indecatiors of how a game is being recived by the public. They make it seem like everyone hates the product, when, in reality, the few houndred people on them sights make up a tiny fraction of the games total market.

I think it time this will prove to be the case with DA2. I think, with time, it'll be show that yeah, there were people who didn't like it, but, the majority of players will approve of it. The only places i really see DA2 hate is here, and a few other bioware related forums. Again, not really a good indecator of how the public at large is really reacting to the game. And it seems to be dieing down a bit, around about the time the game is topping charts in the UK, i belive. *shrug* Like you said, time will tell forsure.

The factor your considering here, and an aspect of this whole "Dragon Age Rage" thing is information control. A company is going to present their product as being successful and well received to convince people otherwise not aware of it to buy the product, even if it's really failing. You never see advertising saying "our product is hated by 90% of users, but come buy it anyway, it's actually really good... honest". That's why there is so much contreversy over game companies paying off professional reviewers, and companies using shills to increase user ratings. Someone who researches a product by looking at the reviews and scores (which massive numbers of people do) can be lead to a totally differant impression than what the case actually is.

The PS-3 success of "Mass Effect 2" involves a lot of things. For one, there is whole console rivalry aspect of things and the PS3 crowd simply being happy to get a much-hyped game that was previously a console exclusive. What's more a lot of them aren't following the details of the conflicts when they game was first released, because it had nothing to do with them, they are an after-market. What's more given the passage of time, a lot of people who were originally upset have moved on to other games, and aren't all that excited about rushing off to badmouth the game for another console. Especially seeing as with "Mass Effect 2" the opposition was fairly laid back about things, ignoring them is part of why the current "Dragon Age" situation has so many people being more aggressive this time. If DA2 was held back form a market, and released after the fact, I think the rage would follow it a lot more than the criticisms of ME2.

Honestly, I admit I haven't followed ME2 on the PS-3. I'm sure people will say it's been being well received, but at the same time to know I'd have to be immersed in that community. Bioware can claim whatever they want, and for those of us who aren't there, we pretty much have to take their word for it, and that's part of the problem.

The PS-3 community also never had the first game to my knowlege, so as a result it also isn't in a position where there are many dedicated users who could compare the games.

This is starting to sound more and more like a conspesiry theroy. Information control? Your giving EA and Bioware to much credit. Yeah, they'll want to protray the best image of their product possible, what company wouldn't, but, if your product is total CRAP, it's going to get out. People will hear, reviews will surface that tell of it's suckyness, the word would spread. Sales would suffer, at some point. Be it when they rerelase a game on a different platform, the DLC for the game, whatever. So far, the facts for ME2 tend to show the game to be really sucessful and well recieved. It sold great at relase, it's rerelase sold well, and it's DLC sells good. If people really were expearincing the buyers remorce your talking about, it'd have impacted some of them sales numbers.

And again, time will tell with DA2. It got some of flack at launch. A few reviews i've seen basically give it a thumbs up, but hightlight the games shortcomings. Some reviews i've read stay it's a good game, but the original was better. The reviews in general seem positive but are far from the "BEST GAME EVER!!" you'd expect if bioware were buying everyone off.

 

[LawlessSquirrel]

Excellent, another reason for me to take another replay. Also I should grab Overlord at some point, I suppose, since I've got the others. The non-story DLC does not interest me.

YES. Seriously, if you have not yet played Overlord, you really must. I was skeptical about the DLC, too, initially, but it is so worth it. I cried at the end of that mission; it is so deep, and that particular side-story really enriched my playing experience.

Good to know. It seemed the weakest link to me when getting the DLC, and something had to give so I left it out. But Lair of the Shadow Broker and the Kasumi DLC were both excellent, and surprisingly touching, so I've been tempted to throw my sadly shallow pool of money at Overlord for another go through.

 

[Wadders]

Wait, bioware charges for DLC? I guess I'm just spoiled from playing VALVe games, but that seems a bit dickish.

Yeah you're spoiled

They've spent time and effort making it, why shouldnt they charge for it?

but yeah this looks frikken sweet! Adrmiral Hackett, Kadian/ Ashley probably returning (dont care for Kadian really though) and plenty else besides I'm sure.

The setting looks a bit dull though from the screens that have been released, but I'm sure it's not all drab gray metal...

 

[Kingsnake661]

I suspect that the message might have gotten through this time, because it's hard to ignore. Only time will tell what happens, but I would not be surprised if ME3 is pushed back. I doubt they will turn it into a massively hardcore RPG, but I think they are at least going to be looking for some middle ground between 1 and 2.

What message? All I saw was a few people whining with the same old same old shit like 'dumbing down' and 'it's a TPS, not an RPG'. And surprise surprise, those are the same people that complained about DA2, even to the point of actually raging about it. I don't think BioWare really cares about those people anymore. They obviously don't like their products, and yet there are more than enough people who do. Why would they cater to the first group?

I have no doubt they will try to accomplish the best balance of features from both ME1 and 2 and implement that into ME3. But they will do that because they want to make the best game they possibly can, and not because you or anyone else sent any kind of significant 'message'.

Well yes, it will be done because of the message the community sent about what the best possible game is.

I'll also say that your correct, that it is a lot of the same people that were involved in both sets of complaints. It's a matter of how those people have been being perceived. Bioware and a lot of people who genuinely liked the changes would have you believe that they represent a tiny minority of trolls and contrarians. That only a few people are opposed to them dumbing down the game, and going in that direction. Right now I think we're seeing a demonstration that it's not a small group of people, and it's quite likely they have the numbers entirely wrong based on what they wanted to see. A lot of the opposition were laid back compared to the "I luv Mass Effect 2, I luv Bioware" fanboys that they listened to, few went out to do anything overt. With Dragon Age 2 though, being ignored convinced a lot of people to step it up, and you see how the numbers break down by the user ratings for the game being tanked. What's more after the whole "Hawke" thing, I think your also dealing with a situation where a lot more people were bracing themselves to express their displeasure.

You keep saying there are so many people displeased, and there are indeed a lot of people raging on these forums. The problem is, they just don't have any substantial arguments. 'Dumbing down' is already such a tiresome cliché that is has lost all its value. The point for me is, it is ok to dislike changes made to a sequel opposed to its predecessor. What's not ok is proclaiming the changes to be 'dumbing down' the game just because you need to feel superior somehow. It's almost completely a matter of opinion, but by belittling the people who do enjoy the changes you're trying to make it seem like that's not the case and that you're the 'smart' one. That is my major gripe.

And like i say, a few hundred people on a game forum isn't nessessairly a good indecatior of how many people accually like or dislike a game. I think people forget a games target audicene number in the MILLIONS, and a few hundred loud detractors who frequenet messages boards and give a very missleading impression. Keep it in prospective.

 

[Therumancer]

I suspect that the message might have gotten through this time, because it's hard to ignore. Only time will tell what happens, but I would not be surprised if ME3 is pushed back. I doubt they will turn it into a massively hardcore RPG, but I think they are at least going to be looking for some middle ground between 1 and 2.

What message? All I saw was a few people whining with the same old same old shit like 'dumbing down' and 'it's a TPS, not an RPG'. And surprise surprise, those are the same people that complained about DA2, even to the point of actually raging about it. I don't think BioWare really cares about those people anymore. They obviously don't like their products, and yet there are more than enough people who do. Why would they cater to the first group?

I have no doubt they will try to accomplish the best balance of features from both ME1 and 2 and implement that into ME3. But they will do that because they want to make the best game they possibly can, and not because you or anyone else sent any kind of significant 'message'.

Well yes, it will be done because of the message the community sent about what the best possible game is.

I'll also say that your correct, that it is a lot of the same people that were involved in both sets of complaints. It's a matter of how those people have been being perceived. Bioware and a lot of people who genuinely liked the changes would have you believe that they represent a tiny minority of trolls and contrarians. That only a few people are opposed to them dumbing down the game, and going in that direction. Right now I think we're seeing a demonstration that it's not a small group of people, and it's quite likely they have the numbers entirely wrong based on what they wanted to see. A lot of the opposition were laid back compared to the "I luv Mass Effect 2, I luv Bioware" fanboys that they listened to, few went out to do anything overt. With Dragon Age 2 though, being ignored convinced a lot of people to step it up, and you see how the numbers break down by the user ratings for the game being tanked. What's more after the whole "Hawke" thing, I think your also dealing with a situation where a lot more people were bracing themselves to express their displeasure.

You keep saying there are so many people displeased, and there are indeed a lot of people raging on these forums. The problem is, they just don't have any substantial arguments. 'Dumbing down' is already such a tiresome cliché that is has lost all its value. The point for me is, it is ok to dislike changes made to a sequel opposed to its predecessor. What's not ok is proclaiming the changes to be 'dumbing down' the game just because you need to feel superior somehow. It's almost completely a matter of opinion, but by belittling the people who do enjoy the changes you're trying to make it seem like that's not the case and that you're the 'smart' one. That is my major gripe.

Well, you see the thing isn't that the people complaining about the dumbing down don't have a legitimate point, it's that you disagree with them. Like it or not, a lot of RPG fans want deep mechanics and customization along with that storyline. To someone who doesn't want to have to compare the numbers on a magic sword to decide which one is better, or worse yet deal with situational "sidegrades" dumbing down the game is a godsend since they can focus on the story. For a lot of people though the mechanics and looking through all those glorious menus is a big part of the appeal.

It's one of those cases where both sides dismiss each other, as they are invested in what are mutally contridictory desires for the game. That's why situations like the one we're looking at are notable, since we're seeing a conflict moving beyond message board conforontations and actually affecting the ratings of a game to the point where the developers can't control them. That's what makes this notable to the point of it spreading accross most gaming sites. It also doesn't hurt matters that while not directly addressed it also points a big finger at the differance between professional reviewers and the customers and how out of sync they actually are... and that's before you get into scandals about EA's damage control.

See, you want to dismiss the other side as being idiots, but then again they want to do the same thing about you. Yet when push comes to shove and you see actual discussions on the matter like the one we're involved in right now, it's apparently nobody on either side of the coin are complete idiots.

To be blunt with you, I've mentioned what I think the compromise is beforehand. Simply put I think EA/Bioware's big problem is in trying to bring everything down to the level of introductory and casual RPGers, and more advanced, "serious" players. There is no reason why it has to be all one way, or all the other, a company, especially a BIG company can maintain multiple franchises. There is no reason why they can't have a deep RPG series, and a casual RPG series with less focus on mechanics, both with strong stories, co-existing on their line up. Indeed I think a lot of people thought when "Mass Effect 2" was turned into a glorified third persons shooter that this is what we were seeing, and that's why you didn't see quite this kind of reaction (though as I've said many times, sloppy design also has a lot to do with it).

I think back to the "golden age" of paper and pencil RPGs where it was selling pretty well, and TSR was maintaining "Dungeons and Dragons" and "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" simultaneously. Regular D&D being a much more streamlined version of the game compared to it's AD&D counterpart, where alignments only had one designation (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic) and you only chose one designation to define your character. Rather than say choosing a race, and then a class, races in basic D&D were classes themselves. For example an "Elf" was a whole character, and all elves were bassically warrior-mages, Fighters and Dwarves were differant things entirely with differant abillity sets, you didn't say for example have a Dwarven fighter. Some people preferred one version of the game over the other, but despite AD&D dominating basic D&D continued to survive throughout that era. Then of course everything came to an end, WoTC bought out TSR, then Hasbro brought out WoTC an well, it gets well off the subject.

The point I'm making is that I think a company like EA that is going to maintain multiple RPG franchises really should aim them at differant audiences, rather than trying to aim them both entirely at the same group of people. I'm sure the audiences will overlap and there will be people who will play both, but at the same time you'll do away with a lot of the fighting, due to all the games only being one way, and people not getting what they want.

 

[Korolev]

If it's as good as Shadow Broker, then colour me interested. If it's as generic as Overlord (which had its moments) then I'm not going to bother. BioWare make great games, but their DLC has been very hit-and-miss. I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the two Mass Effect 1 DLC releases.... they sucked. Sorry, but there it is - Bring Down the Sky and Pinnacle Station were awful disappointments.

But since Shadow Broker was awesome, I am mildly hopeful. Mildly.

 

[Korolev]

And.... already this thread has devolved into a slagging match between Old-RPG fans and Newer Fans of BioWare games.

Look - you two groups are never going to agree with each other. Personally, I though Mass Effect 2 was a vast improvement over Mass Effect 1, and Dragon Age II was a downgrade from the Original "Dragon Age Origins".

I can understand why some people would be disappointed. You're free to be disappointed. I'm not, and I don't care if you are! You're not me! If you don't like something, that has NO EFFECT AT ALL on my enjoyment, and vice versa. You're free to hate what you want to hate, we all are. I'm free to like what I like, again, we all are.

We're all different people with different tastes. Is that so hard to understand? If you don't like the direction BioWare is going in (and that's a very valid concern), don't buy their games! No one makes you!

I didn't like the way Square Enix went with FFXIII and FFXIV. I probably won't buy another Final Fantasy game. I know a lot of people really liked FFXIII, and if they did, more power to them.

But I know that my way of thinking is heretical to you folks. You see, I'm sane! I can tolerate different things existing! I can deal with disappointment and I can agree that others have different opinions than me!

What do they teach kids in school these days, one wonders.

 

[Therumancer]

Mass Effect 2 sold like hotcakes it's first 2 weeks, but, like you said, people *may* have bought it and regreted it. But, it rerelased a full year later on the PS3 and it's sales were really pretty good at that time too. One would figure if it wasn't that well recived, it wouldn't have sold that well on the PS3 relase a year after people had time to let the newness ware off. Not to mention, i've yet to really read a bad review of it. And the list of awards its won is, impressive.

I think your oversetamating how many people were angry over it. It's easy to do on the internet, most people really only take the time to go and rant and rave on a companys website when they are unhappy. Forums / fan sites make bad indecatiors of how a game is being recived by the public. They make it seem like everyone hates the product, when, in reality, the few houndred people on them sights make up a tiny fraction of the games total market.

I think it time this will prove to be the case with DA2. I think, with time, it'll be show that yeah, there were people who didn't like it, but, the majority of players will approve of it. The only places i really see DA2 hate is here, and a few other bioware related forums. Again, not really a good indecator of how the public at large is really reacting to the game. And it seems to be dieing down a bit, around about the time the game is topping charts in the UK, i belive. *shrug* Like you said, time will tell forsure.

The factor your considering here, and an aspect of this whole "Dragon Age Rage" thing is information control. A company is going to present their product as being successful and well received to convince people otherwise not aware of it to buy the product, even if it's really failing. You never see advertising saying "our product is hated by 90% of users, but come buy it anyway, it's actually really good... honest". That's why there is so much contreversy over game companies paying off professional reviewers, and companies using shills to increase user ratings. Someone who researches a product by looking at the reviews and scores (which massive numbers of people do) can be lead to a totally differant impression than what the case actually is.

The PS-3 success of "Mass Effect 2" involves a lot of things. For one, there is whole console rivalry aspect of things and the PS3 crowd simply being happy to get a much-hyped game that was previously a console exclusive. What's more a lot of them aren't following the details of the conflicts when they game was first released, because it had nothing to do with them, they are an after-market. What's more given the passage of time, a lot of people who were originally upset have moved on to other games, and aren't all that excited about rushing off to badmouth the game for another console. Especially seeing as with "Mass Effect 2" the opposition was fairly laid back about things, ignoring them is part of why the current "Dragon Age" situation has so many people being more aggressive this time. If DA2 was held back form a market, and released after the fact, I think the rage would follow it a lot more than the criticisms of ME2.

Honestly, I admit I haven't followed ME2 on the PS-3. I'm sure people will say it's been being well received, but at the same time to know I'd have to be immersed in that community. Bioware can claim whatever they want, and for those of us who aren't there, we pretty much have to take their word for it, and that's part of the problem.

The PS-3 community also never had the first game to my knowlege, so as a result it also isn't in a position where there are many dedicated users who could compare the games.

This is starting to sound more and more like a conspesiry theroy. Information control? Your giving EA and Bioware to much credit. Yeah, they'll want to protray the best image of their product possible, what company wouldn't, but, if your product is total CRAP, it's going to get out. People will hear, reviews will surface that tell of it's suckyness, the word would spread. Sales would suffer, at some point. Be it when they rerelase a game on a different platform, the DLC for the game, whatever. So far, the facts for ME2 tend to show the game to be really sucessful and well recieved. It sold great at relase, it's rerelase sold well, and it's DLC sells good. If people really were expearincing the buyers remorce your talking about, it'd have impacted some of them sales numbers.

And again, time will tell with DA2. It got some of flack at launch. A few reviews i've seen basically give it a thumbs up, but hightlight the games shortcomings. Some reviews i've read stay it's a good game, but the original was better. The reviews in general seem positive but are far from the "BEST GAME EVER!!" you'd expect if bioware were buying everyone off.

Yes, information control. That's why people buy reviewers, and we have things like the whole Gerstmann scandal. It's also why you have companies sending employees to "shill" in customer review sources (and this is hardly the first time it's happened). It's all part of their advertising and product promotion. It's not really a "conspiricy" when this kind of thing isn't really all that well hidden, everyone knows the ad game is full of manipulative rats.

You might not want to ackowlege the validity of what I'm saying, but that's fine. You can't convince everyone which is why so many things, especially on the internet comes down to having to agree to disagree. People sticking to defending one point of view for their own interests (whatever they might be) is why situations like the one we're discussing exist to begin with.

Again, the point is that people who havn't bought a product usually don't complain about it, other than to say why they didn't buy it (maybe). The issue in cases like this is never about sales, but about how well received the product was by those who already purchused it. Re-releasing a product to a whole new market also tends to work the same exact way, it's like starting from the beginning because critics don't usually follow a product around like stalkers all that much. I've explained my thoughts on the PS-3 market earlier.

You can argue about what's going on all you want, but that doesn't change what we're actually seeing here with the ratings and the reaction to DA2, or how a lot of this does
wind up being connected to their other franchise.

Only time will tell what is going to happen, however, I do suspect that ME3 will wind up being pushed up due to the reaction DA2 is getting. Come the end of the year, we'll see if it released on schedule. Being professionals, if it does get pushed up for the reasons I say, I doubt we'll ever hear it expressed like I am saying.


Oh and really, you might want to look into the antics of the video game industry when it comes to product promotion. It's not like EA and Bioware are being singled out. We've had scandals ranging from periodicals being forced to hold back reviews below a certain level so as not to hurt their initial release period (because of when most of the sales happen), to game reviewers being fired due to insisting on retaining integrity despite massive advertising dollars being tossed to their boss (Gerstmann), and all kinds of things. I get that you like the direction that they are going with the games, nobody is claiming these products are universally hated, just that they have displeased substantial amounts of the customer base. Claiming that these kinds of things are little more than a conspiricy theory because you happen to like the product being discussed actually does little for your case. Especially when EA *was* caught trying to pump up the user ratings for DA2 just recently.