Mass Effect 3 ending SPOILERS!

[SajuukKhar]

Maybe that's my problem. I don't assume that in a universe filled with all these different alien races more technologically advanced than us, all those races, humans included, are stupider than us here on earth. I'm not going to respond to every single one of your points, because every single one of them is as filled with fallacies as the next.

Unfortunately for you and your argument the series had set up this game 1 when they showed that race after race after race for millions of years failed to move beyond the reapers pre-set limits, and that is was the Mass Relay system that caused them to be limited.

This is Game 1 material I am talking about here.

In the REAL world things *might* be different yes, although there are NUMEROUS examples in the real world where this has happened, but the Me universe isn't based on our universe and expecting to hold the same logic as our is a flawed train of though.

You claim my arguments are full of fallacies when yours are more so, the irony is almost edible.

And make no mistake, to even begin accepting any one of your points, you first have to accept the premise that everyone in Mass Effect is exceedingly stupid by Earth standards.

Countless Humans in the real world suffer from this problem daily, I wouldn't be surprised if you suffer from some lesser version of this. there are countless things we have today that we believe we need to exist as is that the thought of losing them is terrifying.

Also the fact that the Asari laughed off a matriarch who suggest that they build their own relays, and have outright banned most study of the relays shows that they are that afraid of losing them.

 

[Still Life]

-snip-

I can't say that I liked the endings, but I can't say that I disliked them. For me it goes deeper than that; in a way that makes me consider the story on a philosophical level rather than an absolute. There's comfort getting straight answers to something that you've become emotionally invested in (like myself) and leaving the trilogy on a deeply philosophical, but final note is a surefire way to upset a lot of people who have preconceived notions of what an 'appropriate' conclusion constitutes.

Honestly, I admire the balls Bioware have in wrapping the trilogy up in the way they did and I'm satisfied with it. It has made me consider my morality and ethics in a way no other game has. It has sparked debates allover and I think that is a success unto itself.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

It didn't spark debate. It sparked furious outbursts because the ending made no sense at all. It is logically fallacious, it is poorly written. It is a cowardly cop-out that makes no sense for the universe of Mass Effect if you payed any fuckin' attention to the pervious 2 games.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

I loved Mass Effect 3, hell it may be my favourite game of all time.

But the ending sucked, I dont know what to say, I still love Mass Effect, Im just kind of annoyed that of all the possible ways they could've ended the series, they chose.. that.

What really made it all such a kick in the balls was how just before the final part, you walk through London, talking to your squad, present, and former along the way. I just cant believe the ending, especially after that. I really hope theres some sort of "Broken Steel" esque DLC that gives a different ending, because god knows ill buy it.

I respect you Bioware for trying to do something unexpected, and uncliched. But it didnt work

 

[SajuukKhar]

It didn't spark debate. It sparked furious outbursts because the ending made no sense at all. It is logically fallacious, it is poorly written. It is a cowardly cop-out that makes no sense for the universe of Mass Effect if you payed any fuckin' attention to the pervious 2 games.

Except I just explained how it did make sense.

Ill do it in shorthand so you understand it this time
-Reapers build relays to control evolution
-Reapers use controlled evolution to kill organics
-Reapers kill organics because they, by nature, end up building machines that kill ALL organics
-Shepard ends up at Reaper control
-Reaper control says "well you got here the cycle is broken forever"
-Reaper control also says "now that someone other then me is here other options are available"
-Shepard chooses option
-Option breaks the cycle
-Option ALSO breaks Mass relays freeing civilization from the technological limits placed on them because said limits are no longer needed.

 

[Kahunaburger]

In the REAL world things *might* be different yes, although there are NUMEROUS examples in the real world where this has happened,

[citation needed]

but the Me universe isn't based on our universe and expecting to hold the same logic as our is a flawed train of though.

Mass Effect occurring in an alternate universe where people are stupid would explain a lot. I doubt, however, that this was intended by the writers.

 

[Still Life]

It didn't spark debate. It sparked furious outbursts because the ending made no sense at all. It is logically fallacious, it is poorly written. It is a cowardly cop-out that makes no sense for the universe of Mass Effect if you payed any fuckin' attention to the pervious 2 games.

With all due respect, everything Bioware does makes a cross-section of their 'Fandom' rage. You can't please everyone, so that fact is immaterial to my point. Going through this thread validates what I've said about the conclusion sparking existential debate.

 

[SajuukKhar]

The ME universe is based on our universe. "Based on" doesn't mean "is". The humans of said universe are supposedly the same humans that painted drawings on their caves, built pyramids, burned a lot of jews and created the atomic bomb. To expect anything other than at least the same level of intelligence we have achieved now would be utterly disingenuous and defeat the whole idea of a galactic community.

All the mass relays ever did was open up new pathways of technology (and the galaxy). Technological progress that isn't dependent on it certainly couldn't have halted for no reason, and stuff like biotics, the new weapon and shielding technology didn't fall into anyone's hands. I don't know why you keep talking about hitting a wall when even between the different installments of the franchise there has been clear advancement in technological understanding, at the very least when it comes to military technology (since this isn't a civ game).

Please, I'm not the one who started this off by saying the mass relays do no-one any good.

As a side-note, I'm having a hard time understanding why people think "well this isn't our universe!" holds any water when it comes to straight up logic. And this train of thought is pervasive in a lot of genres concerning fantasy. Do you honestly believe this is anything more than a carte blanche to excuse bad writing?

1. Yes and all of those thing happened in situations were said peoples were not dependant on a more advanced outside technology light years beyond their own to get said things done. The situations you mentioned and that are in the game are entirely different.

2. And all those advancement were made within The limits set-forth by the Mass relay system. Where you are getting technological stagnation beyond a certain point = total technological stagnation of all technology levels before it, I don't know. But it hasn't been stated or implied so I don't know why you are bringing it up.

Beyond that, if you failed to notice, most technology all the various races have made have been almost identical except in appearance and some minor necessary racial adaptatiions. This is because of the forced evolutionary path The Reapers set using the Mass Relay network, and that sovereign mentioned on virmire on ME1.

3. I said the Mass Relays, as in the Mass relays currently in existence now, the ones built by The Reapers, the ones The Reapers by their own admission in game 1 stated were built to limit civilization, do no one any good. I never said, implied, or even remotely hinted at that Mass relay type technology in general is bad. I would like it if you choose to constitute this discussion you don't claim I said or implied thing I didn't.

4. Why? because there have been so many series with universes vastly different then our own that have done exceedingly well.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

1. The reapers are gone. Stop bringing them up if you have the slightest ounce of common sense.
2. Logic gap. If it's possible to rebuild the mass relays, it's possible to understand them without so much as touching them, rather through arriving at the technological understanding by oneself.

And the third point is the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in this thread. How the fuck do you arrive at a conclusion that the technology that allows for the traversal from one end of the galaxy to another does no good for anyone?

The Mass Relay system worked to limit the races of the galaxy even when The Reapers were not physically present. thier death means nothing to the overall function of the relay system.

They WANTED the races of the galaxy to use The Mass relay technology as it is, and base thier technology off of it, because they knew it ultimately lead to a path, which is to say a dead end one, which is to say their own.

Why would we want to continue to use a technology built by a race we "beat" if said technology was designed to limit us?

There isn't a reason, it is silly, pointless, and only means the races of the galaxy would be salves to a master who is long dead.

Now you might bring up the question of "wouldn't they just continue to move past the Mass Relay system?", or something similar, which, in a perfect world, would be true.

However in the Mass effect universe even attempting to study the inside of a Mass Relay, the Keepers, or the Citadel for that matter is so forbidden its practically the worst sin one could commit, worthy of heavy imprisonment or death, and anyone who even attempts to suggest they build their own Mass relays gets laughed at.

The races of the galaxy have lived so long with the though that these things will always be here that they have become unreasonably terrified of ANYTHING that could alter the mass relays. Which is EXACTLY what the reapers wanted.

The relays as they are keep the races complacent of what they have, and so terrified of losing it, that said races don't ever try to learn about these things and possibly make them better, which is The Reapers worst fear.

This trend of terror has gone on for so long that civilization as is couldn't be convinced to let go of it. The destruction of the Mass relays forces them to do what they normally wouldn't and psychologically couldn't, which is to say do it themselves.

And by doing things themselves they have the ability to move PAST The Reaper's pre-set limits because by making it themselves they know about what it is they use, how it is built, how to make more, and more specifically they know how to make it BETTER.
.
.
.
It is an exceedingly basic psychological tactic.

Make something so dependent on you and your things that they don't every try to let go of it. And the only thing that the dependance leads to is stagnation.

That makes a metric fuckton of sense, but I still think the endings should have been different , for example

Shepard is on the Citadel, exhausted and near dead, Hackett radios in "The Crucible isnt firing, do something Shepard!".

A weary and tired Shepard gets up, and accesses the terminal, A VI pops up, it being a compilation of the intelligences of the millions of species that tried and failed to stop the Reapers. It explains to Shepard the using the Citadel as a Catalyst, the Crucible will destroy any predominantly Reaper based tech in the Milky Way, including the Mass Relays, in doing so, it will send all Species to their original homeworld (Considering the actual ending, id say people could forgive that bit of space magic).

Shepard sends out a call to every ship in the united fleet, the Reapers will be destroyed, but in return the galaxy may never be united again. Shepard activates the Crucible and as it fires off, holograms of Shepards crew, past, present, and even the dead ones appear before him. Its finally over. Shepard shares a tearful moment with his romance option, and promises eternal love or some crap (Thats if theyre an alien), and then turns the rest of his non human squad members, saying that while they may never meet again, it was an honour serving with them all.

The Mass Effect theme starts playing and then the credits roll. When theyre done theres a short video cutting from planet to planet. Morgan Freeman narrates, "With the threat of Reapers gone, and a millenia old cycle broken, the races of the galaxy finally know true peace. Though separated for now, each race knows that they will eventually meet the others, and that they are not alone in this Galaxy. As time goes on, no doubt change will occur, memories may be lost, but one man (or woman for Femshep players), will never be forgotten, his countless sacrifices, and undying heroism will never be forgotten, a man who stood tall in the face of certain destruction, a shining beacon in the darkness. Shepard, he will be remembered"


I know thats cliched as hell but to me at least it would be a much more satisfying ending, the Reapers are defeated, Shepard gets some closure with him love interest, theres a badass speech, Morgan Freeman, and theres still a ray of hope that the galaxy will unify once more, without all the depressing crap in the actual endings

 

[Kahunaburger]

4. Why? because there have been so many series with universes vastly different then our own that have done exceedingly well.

You mean series where everyone is an idiot? Like Twilight or Eragon? Truly this is the product that all true writers strive for.

 

[SajuukKhar]

You mean series where everyone is an idiot? Like Twilight or Eragon? Truly this is the product that all true writers strive for.

Actually those seires, twilight especially, have alot of our unvierses "laws" in them.

Nice try, but a try is all you got.

 

[SajuukKhar]

That makes a metric fuckton of sense, but I still think the endings should have been different

Well as long as you got it, that is all I was aiming for.

 

[kingcom]

-Reapers build relays to control evolution

Except you cant control evolution, the best you could ever do short of being all knowing is to direct it. They directly technological development to make use of the Mass Relays.

-Reapers use controlled evolution to kill organics

No they dont, they use the dependence on the Mass Relays, nothing outside this 'controlled evolution' has been used to kill an organic

-Reapers kill organics because they, by nature, end up building machines that kill ALL organics

Thats a statement based upon no fact. There is no evidence that organics by nature develop synthetics, nor that these synthetics then kill all organics.

-Shepard ends up at Reaper control
-Reaper control says "well you got here the cycle is broken forever"

Why? They can continue the cycle killing over and over, without the Cruible there is nothing to stop the Reapers repeating the cycle. The stated goal of the Deus Ex Machina kid is for the Reapers to prevent synthetics gaining dominance. Why does Shepard being there prevent that cycle from repeating?

-Reaper control also says "now that someone other then me is here other options are available"

Again why?

-Shepard chooses option
-Option breaks the cycle

The potential results depend upon whether the Deus Ex Machina Kid is correct. If he is correct that organics will inevitably product synthetics which destroy organics: Destroying or Controlling the Reapers will cause his stated goal and purpose of the Reaper/Cycle mechanic to fail as it would not prevent organics from creating synthetics and being destroyed. If they merge organic and synthetic into cyborgs, nothing prevent them from creating synthetics to for the same reason organics would (tools) and causing the plan to fail. Some number of variables involved in merging or not merging as to a cultures long-term outcome.

If the kid is not correct: Reapers purpose is already pointless anyway.

-Option ALSO breaks Mass relays freeing civilization from the technological limits placed on them because said limits are no longer needed.

Incorrect, Mass Relays never placed limitations on civilization. It rapidly expanded a civilization's options beyond what they would have access to otherwise. Any fear of adapting Mass Relay technology would be non-existant with the end of the Reaper threat.

You mean series where everyone is an idiot? Like Twilight or Eragon? Truly this is the product that all true writers strive for.

Actually those seires, twilight especially, have alot of our unvierses "laws" in them.

Nice try, but a try is all you got.

What do you mean by "laws"? Are you refering to laws of physics? Theromodynamics? What do these have to do with a character acting like a rational, logic being?

 

[Kahunaburger]

You mean series where everyone is an idiot? Like Twilight or Eragon? Truly this is the product that all true writers strive for.

Actually those seires, twilight especially, have alot of our unvierses "laws" in them.

But do people act like real people in those stories? Not really, no.

Nice try, but a try is all you got.

This sentence probably sounded better in your head.

 

[Cl0udz0r]

wow you guys went really far from ME3 with your arguing

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

-Being able to direct the evolution of every species for millions of years is so close to being true control the difference exists only in semantics.

-Dependance on the Mass Relay leads to adaptation of its technology as our own, adaptation of MR technology leads to all races developing along the relatively same technological and societal paths, controlling a species technology and society results in controlling its evolution. The Reapers used controlled evolution that dependance on MR based technology causes to kill organics. Saying the Reapers killed organics through controlled evolution and saying that they did it via dependance on the MR is saying the same thing. The former is caused by the latter and thus saying either the former or the latter is correct except saying the latter is just going one more step outwards, and totally unnecessary.

-It is based on the observations and experiences the makers of the Catalyst and The Reapers had, it is truth to them, truth to The Reapers, but may not be the truth to us, but the fact it is not truth to us does not make it not truth.

-The Reapers methods and purpose were based off of the information they had at the time of their original creation, which is to say the limits of their race, which is to say the belief that synthetics would end up destroying all organic life based on said races experience. That Shepard was able to get to The Catalyst shows that the information they been working on for millions of years, which was valid at the time of said creation, was no longer valid.

-See above

-As stated above his information was only valid until the point Shepard got to him, the Catalyst is a machine built with the limited knowledge of his creators. The fact that Shepard was able to get to him shows the information is no longer valid, all he can tell you is what he knows, and all he has known is what he was told when he was made, which as stated before is no longer valid.

Why people are treating his word like the literal infallible word of god, when it is merely the word of a machine and subject to limitations of knowledge is beyond me. It seems like a convent thing to ignore to say "it doesn't make sense".

-Incorrect the MRs as they were limited technological and societal growth by causing a dependance on their technology and things based off of their technology and causing stagnation due to a unwillingness to learn about said things out of a fear they might lose them.
--Hence why races from across the galaxy managed to make almost the exact same technology
--Hence why the study of the relays, The Citadel, and the Keepers was outright banned or extremely taboo, with punishments of death or imprisonment.
--Hence why the Asari, and other races, would laugh at anyone who suggested they build relays of their own

 

[Inkidu]

I'm as pissed as everyone here, but I don't think Bioware should release a new ending. I have reasons.

A.) You don't ask authors to write new endings when their book's blows. So why ask video game developers.
B.) Bioware is lauded for its writing. So, whoever came up with that should have the gall to stand behind his decision.
C.) Mostly though, I want it to be a black mark on their company forever. I don't want them to be able to fix it and say, "Lol, JK!". No, I want Bioware to look back on this for what it was. Lazy writing. Lazy writing with a poorly implemented way of choosing your ending. When I went into it all I saw was the central beam.

ME1: Dialogue choice.
ME2: Dialogue choice.
ME3: Fucking guess, asshole!

 

[Kahunaburger]

-Dependance on the Mass Relay leads to adaptation of its technology as our own, adaptation of MR technology leads to all races developing along the relatively same technological and societal paths, controlling a species technology and society results in controlling its evolution. The Reapers used controlled evolution that dependance on MR based technology causes to kill organics. Saying the Reapers killed organics through controlled evolution and saying that they did it via dependance on the MR is saying the same thing. The former is caused by the latter and thus saying either the former or the latter is correct except saying the latter is just going one more step outwards, and totally unnecessary.

So, if humans have discovered the mass relays in 1950, would they have failed to invent the three-blade razor with aloe strip?

-It is based on the observations and experiences the makers of the Catalyst and The Reapers had, it is truth to them, truth to The Reapers, but may not be the truth to us. but the fact it is not truth to us does not make it not truth.