Mass Effect 3, Indoctrination theory (new and extended)

[Vault101]

So is this video trying to show that indoctrination is true?
Because we already know from comments by the devs that it is not (how can you plan something like this if you don't know that the ending will even be, it's not possible) and the last video on it wasn't convincing. A big point was Object Rho knocking Shep out, but Shep might not even do Arrival, stuff like that.

well the fact that the original end was suposed to be somthing else entirly....I'm just really looking forward to see how they attempt to fix this it jsut makes no sense

 

[pure.Wasted]

There is one very simple reason why the Indoctrination Theory could not possibly be true.

Mass Effect is a space opera. Not for an instant of its 3-lengthy-games spanning lifetime has it been subtle.

That's not to say it isn't smart or clever, it has been both those things many times over, but it wants your attention every step of the way. It wants you to know how smart and clever it is, not because it's boasting, but because it's fully aware that you being aware of its smartness and cleverness will add to your enjoyment of the game. It's essentially the closest thing we have to Chris Nolan in video games.

Remember the ending to Inception? Sure, we don't really find out the answer right then and there, but the spinning top is still in the middle of the screen. That's how Mass Effect would have done Indoctrination, if that's what they were going for. Maybe leaving room for doubt, maybe leaving questions unanswered, but in the middle of the screen, front and center. Not with a few vague sound effects.

 

[RatRace123]

I'm not sure I'm gonna look at it, but damn, the fact that someone made a goddamn movie about the theory is impressive in a really insane sort of way.

I do agree though, that the theory itself is fascinating, and possibly the greatest thing to come out of Mass Effect 3.

 

[Vault101]

Why keep him as a prize? That is an organic idea. Just kill him off would have been the most logical.

Mass Effect 1's whole story was that he had amazing willpower. The fact he wasn't indoctrinated at arrival is a point against indoctrination theory.

The dream sequence using reaper sounds was simply Shepard's traumatized mind. Its a thing.

Shepard could survive the destruction ending because the bionic enhancements were done a year ago. His body would have healed and he may not even need them anymore.

higher function indoctrination is a gradual process, not instantanious

because I guess the Idea goes that "key" figures are indoctrinated, its infiltration...some say the illusive man has been indoctrinated for years..and look at how he managed to fuck things up for everyone, the reapers might as well "try" and indoctrinate shepard beofre outright killing him/her

I never said the dream seaquences are out of place...quite the oposite, without IT it still amkes sense..shepards got alo of stuff on his/her mind (but then again why would renegade shepard be feeling that much guilt?)

the dreams also HAPPEN to fit VERY well with the Idea of indoctrination, when interpereted (though I don't know much about the dark matter oroginal plot/ending...so perhaps shepard and the kid burning could somhow be interperated as that as well...like "no matter what youre screwed")

and..seriously....an explosion..probably as big as a nuke..and re-entry to earth?....a few little cybernectics aint gonna do shit for that (ok..assume shepard is on the citadel then...ignoring the fact that all looks like concrete, mabye the citadel wasnt destroyed,I dont know)

 

[Vault101]

I'm not sure I'm gonna look at it, but damn, the fact that someone made a goddamn movie about the theory is impressive in a really insane sort of way.

I do agree though, that the theory itself is fascinating, and possibly the greatest thing to come out of Mass Effect 3.

exactally..people seem to think this just a bucnh of angry/crazy fans who cant get over it..its not that at all, if you like stuff then digging deeper and analysing it is fun (and this video does bring up a few newpoints)

 

[Vault101]

I believe it.

Even if it's mostly because I don't wanna believe the current... "canon" ending...

But it is a really cool way to go.

I'm more "I really want to belive but remaining neutral due to the fact that its too good to be true"

even if its not true we can always pretend it is

 

[chadachada123]

I think that it's pretty clear that they *intended* for indoctrination to play SOME part in it, or at least had it very heavily considered as an option.

There are just too many things that wouldn't make sense to have without indoctrination.

I feel like they probably ditched it at the behest of that talentless lead hack. Probably.

 

[bullet_sandw1ch]

I don't know, even the ending they were "supposed" to go with, the dark matter ending, doesn't make any sense.

Let's just chalk it up to "videogame endings suck".

can you explain the original endings for me? what were they supposed to be?

 

[Something Amyss]

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

No, no it doesn't. It's still tripe, even if it's anal, minutia-laden tripe.

Come on, folks. Pro or against the indoctrination theory, just admit: Bioware doesn't make good stories. Your expectations were built up in your head and NOTHING can compare.

 

[Irridium]

Not so hot on the indoctrination ending.

To quote Shamus Young:

I think that would be better than the ending we got, but I don?t think it it was ever intended by the writers. This theory involves an incredible level of subtle symbolism, which goes against just how ham-fisted the rest of the story is. To wit: If these writers thought Shepard was indoctrinated in the last stage of the game, we would know it.

Still, love all the investigating and whatnot going into all this. Seeing so many people really get into a game's story and lore is great to see. Wish it happened more often, but I'm glad it's happening nonetheless.

 

[Vault101]

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

No, no it doesn't. It's still tripe, even if it's anal, minutia-laden tripe.

Come on, folks. Pro or against the indoctrination theory, just admit: Bioware doesn't make good stories. Your expectations were built up in your head and NOTHING can compare.

why?

with indoctriantion theory everything makes sense

without it...NOTHING makes sense

does that make it true? no of coarse not..does it make it interesting? damn right it does, the ending might be bad but it gave way to all this speculation, somthing "good" came out of it at least

liek I said, Im only "skeptical" becas=use I think its just that unlikley some so brilliant could be true, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy looking into it

and it has NOTHING to do with expectations, no matter how high low or normal your expectations were the ending jsut fucks with you in so many ways...the fact that it goes against lore as well...

...untill Bioware comes out with its DLC I just cant take the ending at facr vaule, its just too non-sensical

so in other words, why try and rain on people parade? (other than the fact yoru sick of ME3 threads)

 

[Vault101]

I think that it's pretty clear that they *intended* for indoctrination to play SOME part in it, or at least had it very heavily considered as an option.

There are just too many things that wouldn't make sense to have without indoctrination.

I feel like they probably ditched it at the behest of that talentless lead hack. Probably.

there was the poper ending involving dark matter (and I think th use of mass relays slowly destroying the universe) but they ditched that...so I dont know

 

[chadachada123]

I think that it's pretty clear that they *intended* for indoctrination to play SOME part in it, or at least had it very heavily considered as an option.

There are just too many things that wouldn't make sense to have without indoctrination.

I feel like they probably ditched it at the behest of that talentless lead hack. Probably.

there was the poper ending involving dark matter (and I think th use of mass relays slowly destroying the universe) but they ditched that...so I dont know

I totally forgot about that one.

That ending seems pretty good, but still somewhat misguided, since they are slaughtering billions in order to...save...billions...or something...

I liked reading about it though, heh.

 

[370999]

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

No, no it doesn't. It's still tripe, even if it's anal, minutia-laden tripe.

Come on, folks. Pro or against the indoctrination theory, just admit: Bioware doesn't make good stories. Your expectations were built up in your head and NOTHING can compare.

why?

with indoctriantion theory everything makes sense

without it...NOTHING makes sense

does that make it true? no of coarse not..does it make it interesting? damn right it does, the ending might be bad but it gave way to all this speculation, somthing "good" came out of it at least

liek I said, Im only "skeptical" becas=use I think its just that unlikley some so brilliant could be true, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy looking into it

and it has NOTHING to do with expectations, no matter how high low or normal your expectations were the ending jsut fucks with you in so many ways...the fact that it goes against lore as well...

...untill Bioware comes out with its DLC I just cant take the ending at facr vaule, its just too non-sensical

so in other words, why try and rain on people parade? (other than the fact yoru sick of ME3 threads)

With indoc theory, what is the actual ending? Can you not see how horribly horribly inconclusive it is to not only say "It was all a dream" but to not even bother with that and just imply it, to end the story before the hero wakes up?

Everything only makes sense if you work on the premise that nothing will make sense because of indoctrination, it is entirely recursive and artificial, where it devolves into grabbing what fits and just using the blanket term of "indoctrination" to force everything to fit together.

So yeah, it's better then the actual ending. But it really isn't a good thing. It was all a dream should be avoided as much as possible.

 

[pure.Wasted]

Not so hot on the indoctrination ending.

To quote Shamus Young:

I think that would be better than the ending we got, but I don?t think it it was ever intended by the writers. This theory involves an incredible level of subtle symbolism, which goes against just how ham-fisted the rest of the story is. To wit: If these writers thought Shepard was indoctrinated in the last stage of the game, we would know it.

Still, love all the investigating and whatnot going into all this. Seeing so many people really get into a game's story and lore is great to see. Wish it happened more often, but I'm glad it's happening nonetheless.

I don't know who this Shamus Young person is, but that's exactly my point.

Which isn't to say that "ham-fisted" is necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. I'd argue that Chris Nolan is a very ham-fisted director, and that hasn't stopped him from producing some of the best films of the last decade.

 

[Vault101]

With indoc theory, what is the actual ending? Can you not see how horribly horribly inconclusive it is to not only say "It was all a dream" but to not even bother with that and just imply it, to end the story before the hero wakes up?

Everything only makes sense if you work on the premise that nothing will make sense because of indoctrination, it is entirely recursive and artificial, where it devolves into grabbing what fits and just using the blanket term of "indoctrination" to force everything to fit together.

So yeah, it's better then the actual ending. But it really isn't a good thing. It was all a dream should be avoided as much as possible.

I think the Idea is that shepard "wakes up" and then runs off to go do the REAL ending..(new ending DLC?)

the 1# I dont get is shepards "waking up" scene just before the credits roll

that said though, its still up in the air waether or nor this new "DLC" will do anything, all we can hope for is answers

 

[LHZA]

Bull fucking shit. The indoctrination theory is just mental gymnastics in a vain attempt to see something that isn't there.

1. Sound effects are sound effects.

2. Dreams are dreams. recurring nightmares are common.

3. Transitions are transitions. They are reused time and time again.

4. blurred eyesight is a common trope. Its atmosphere, a tactic to limit the draw on the computer.

5. The change in distance is just laziness.

6. a pre-determined armor at the beam is a time constraint. making different textures for the same armor is easy. Making it for the very end sequence would serve no purpose. It would be easier to say the paint was burned off. Even the GUNS are different in cutscenes. The dead bodies are a design oversight.

7. The bodies are there because the game itself explained they beamed the bodies up into the citadel. Not only that, but repeat models in piles are a common way to save time in development. Don't believe me? Look at the MANY piles of bodies in Left 4 dead 1 & 2. If valve cant make everything unique, then Bioware cant. You won't even notice it anyway.

Know what? I am going to stop right here. Its just fallacy after fallacy.

I mean really. Is it not sad enough that the ending of ME3 was bad? Must we pull conspiracy theories out of our collective asses so we may delude ourselves that it was something brooding and deep?

Must we be in denial?

Bioware dropped the literary ball on its series's defining moment. That's all there is to it. Now can we please move on?

Come on! I think the indoctrination theory is unlikely as well but I can still appreciate how well thought out it is. Also I think it's pretty cool people are debating it and such. People are really into it and whether Bioware intended for that to happen or not, it's still pretty cool, and I've never heard of this happening for any other game. Let the people who believe it have their fun. Why get so worked up about it?

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Cue thread covering the same stuff already covered ages ago.

Pretty sure the bloke who made the video should really just let it go.

Seeing as it's the length of the average movie I'm pretty sure he was making this during the very hight of the ending issue. Lucky for him people will still eat this stuff up.