Mass Effect 3, Indoctrination theory (new and extended)

[Kron_the_mad wants to be deleted]

There are currently three big problems with indoctrination theory:

1. EAoware has dismissed it completely already. They've outright denied that's what they were aiming for with the ending which is a shame because it's the only way to may sense of the garbled mess they've released.

2. Even if it were true, it's still not what was promised and would mean that the game actually managed to ship, not just with a bad ending, but somehow got released without an ending at all. There is still a war to fight after all, the reapers aren't giving up because 1 space Canadian woke up from a bad dream.

3. It simply isn't what was promised. Where are the multiple diverse endings? Where's all the weight from my decisions gone? Why is an annoying glowing kid dictating nonsense at me in a dream sequence?

 

[Bat Vader]

Has Bioware said if the IT theory is false or have they not commented on it? They must know about how big the theory is and if they don't plan on doing anything with it should just say it is false.

 

[Vault101]

"Most people" think that indoctrination is cool?

I would love to see the polls you have backing this up.

...Id say a fair number of fans think ti would be better than taking the ending at face value, weather its true or not...

There are currently three big problems with indoctrination theory:

1. EAoware has dismissed it completely already. They've outright denied that's what they were aiming for with the ending which is a shame because it's the only way to may sense of the garbled mess they've released.

have they?

Has Bioware said if the IT theory is false or have they not commented on it? They must know about how big the theory is and if they don't plan on doing anything with it should just say it is false.

I thourght they were remaining neutral on it...or at least being very vauge, it may not have been their original intention but at this stage I dont think we can completly say what they are planning

EDIT: not saying anything anythign eather way right now would be wise of Bioware

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

No, no it doesn't. It's still tripe, even if it's anal, minutia-laden tripe.

Come on, folks. Pro or against the indoctrination theory, just admit: Bioware doesn't make good stories. Your expectations were built up in your head and NOTHING can compare.

So you're admitting you didn't watch something but still denouncing its' legitimacy in pure ignorance of the material.

You're pretty much a textbook hater...

If you actually watch it you'd see there are legitimate points. You're like that lady on Fox News who called Mass Effect a chauvinistic sex simulator and then admitted she never played it.

 

[Kron_the_mad wants to be deleted]

There are currently three big problems with indoctrination theory:

1. EAoware has dismissed it completely already. They've outright denied that's what they were aiming for with the ending which is a shame because it's the only way to may sense of the garbled mess they've released.

have they?

Yup it was part of the announcement for the extended cut DLC, along with telling us we still won't be getting the promised diverse endings just an explanation of why they think it all made sense.

 

[Vault101]

Yup it was part of the announcement for the extended cut DLC, along with telling us we still won't be getting the promised diverse endings just an explanation of why they think it all made sense.

sorry to be a pain but links? the thing I read for the extended cut was vauge enough...it besically said add a few cutscenes

without IT I wonder how a few cutscnes are suposed to fix anything

 

[pure.Wasted]

"Most people" think that indoctrination is cool?

I would love to see the polls you have backing this up.

...Id say a fair number of fans think ti would be better than taking the ending at face value, weather its true or not...

Well, that's the problem with using yourself as an example. I could just as well say "and I don't think that's true, I think most people don't like it," and we're left at an impasse.

But I'll make this easy: I agree. On the condition that we get an extended cut from Bioware that explains what the hell happened, where all the foreshadowing we missed was hiding, what precisely happened and why and how and when, it will be a better ending than what we have.

But it won't be brilliant, mindblowing, or genius. That's the key thing here to keep in mind. It won't be great, it won't even be competent, because they had to step back into the ring and, basically, do what a magician is never supposed to do: reveal his secrets.

You can like it, and that's fine! I'm not trying to tell you to stop having fun guyz! just because I'm petty or upset. I like plenty of stuff that wasn't expertly written, and maybe the fact that it's poorly made is part of its charm, or maybe I simply overlook the flaw(s). But there are objective scales on which art can be judged, and the indoctrination ending cannot be made to be mechanically, dramatically competent, because for it to be competent, they would have to change more than the ending, they'd have to change the rest of the game(s) to properly set up this ending.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

ok...I sort of get it

but what would they need to change?

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

The problem is, we know (with variable specificity) how Saren, the Collectors, and The Illusive Man were indoctrinated. It's not a mystery. They all physically came in contact with the Reapers' shells.

Shepard had no such unique opportunity. Every time that Shepard spoke with a Reaper, someone else was with him, and they should be indoctrinated too. In ME1 he had two squadmates with him on Virmire. In ME2 he had two squadmates with him when he retrieved the IFF and when he fought the human Reaper, and the entire ship was exposed to the IFF when it was brought aboard.

I'm not saying it's physically impossible for Bioware to up and say that Sovereign could have gone after all three but FOCUSED on Shepard, maybe to... make sure it stuck. Or maybe because the others didn't matter. Or that the Reapers have new ways of indoctrinating people that we've never even heard of, and they used one of these on Shepard! Off-camera, no less! Between ME1 and ME2. Whatever. It's all absolutely possible.

What I'm saying is this wouldn't be brilliant storytelling. That should have been self-evident from the fact that when people saw the ending, they didn't say "Oooooh, so much suddenly makes sense, it's like all the pieces just fell into place." If it had been a masterful twist, the majority would be saying that.

When's the last time someone said they didn't "get" the Bioshock twist? That was a competently executed plot twist.

Shepard has had more contact with Reaper tech than just about any other person in the Galaxy, and we've been told time and time again that Shepard in somehow "special" to the Reapers and that they have a higher purpose for him. The "slow, methodical, and patient" Indoctrination that is brought up in the Codex entry about the subject would fit the symptoms Shepard goes through in ME3, kind of like everything is finally catching up to him.

If that DOES turn out to be what they intended, it would show they at least did what they did with a purpose. What happened in ME3 wasn't just "for the spectacle" and I think would be kind of nice to know they at least had a plan for the series from the beginning and weren't just flying by the seat of their pants

I think they popularity of the theory is because it IS kind of unexpected. Shepard is seemingly invincible through the Series, but in ME3, just about all the "non-shooting" parts are about how weak he feels. Indoctrinated Shepard would be the ultimate victory for the Reapers as well as the ultimate defeat for Shepard. He seems immune to Reaper influence through the series, but now it shows that he really isn't. It's always been there in the back of his mind, clawing away at him. It just taken til now, at a point where the whole galaxy is counting on him, to really start wearing him down.

That's just my two cents about it at least. I think it would be a pretty good read if it was put into a book.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Well, if this new ending DLC does disprove the Indoctrination Theory I'll be sad.

But the second best theory out there is the Lost Island Theory (Which I came up with)

Which states that after the Normandy gets hit by the shockwave it crashes on the Island from Lost (Lost being another series with a terrible ending, so correlation there.)

This theory also fills in all the plot holes (Not only in the ending but for the rest of the game to) Because after Joker and Co. find the Vault it's only a matter of time before they find the magic nuke that sends them back in time where they can make sure everything that didn't make sense in ME 3 happen according to Canon.

Also the Dharma Initiative being the precursor to Cerberus would fill in a bunch of plot holes From Lost.

I don't have an hour and a half long Youtube video to prove it, but it's a solid theory.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

I agree theres no reason shepard should be imune to indoctrination (hey...what if those cybernetics in shepard are like "recivers" or "antenne" for the indoctrination?..ok long shot I know)

I highly doubt though this was Bioware plan from the start...that its just too mcuh of a long shot

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

[snip.

I agree theres no reason shepard should be imune to indoctrination (hey...what if those cybernetics in shepard are like "recivers" or "antenne" for the indoctrination?..ok long shot I know)

I highly doubt though this was Bioware plan from the start...that its just too mcuh of a long shot

There was a theory back in ME2 that Shepard COULD have been rebuilt with experimental Reaper tech. Not sure how that hold up, but it's interesting to say the least.

 

[RedDeadFred]

[b/]*MASSIVE BIG FLAMESHEILD*[/b]

I know you guys don't want anymore Mass effect 3 threads, I know the horse no longer exists but instead has been sumoned and destroyed in every spiritual/physical way and that it is no longer a horse but a horse shaped black hole that is sucking everything in around it

but there is one reason, and that is this guy made a 90 minute "documentry" (almost) explaining an analysing indoctrination theory

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

mabye your sold in indoctrination theory

mabye your not

mabye you don't know what it is but I'm just going to leave this here


its a long one so grab some pop-corn (I dont know about anyone but I find this stuff facinating)

See the number one problem with the indoctrination theory is that if you had a low reputation meter (or whatever it's called) at the end you will only have the destroy option.
Why would the Reapers give you the only option that lets you win? Especially since it's under the circumstances that you technically have the least amount of willpower.
If you got all three choices no matter what then I would be willing to except the theory as plausible.
I really wanted to believe that they had secretly been building towards this ending when I saw the first video. I wanted to believe their writers were geniuses.

But because of that one big flaw in the theory, I cannot believe it.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Well, if this new ending DLC does disprove the Indoctrination Theory I'll be sad.

But the second best theory out there is the Lost Island Theory (Which I came up with)

Which states that after the Normandy gets hit by the shockwave it crashes on the Island from Lost (Lost being another series with a terrible ending, so correlation there.)

This theory also fills in all the plot holes (Not only in the ending but for the rest of the game to) Because after Joker and Co. find the Vault it's only a matter of time before they find the magic nuke that sends them back in time where they can make sure everything that didn't make sense in ME 3 happen according to Canon.

Also the Dharma Initiative being the precursor to Cerberus would fill in a bunch of plot holes From Lost.

I don't have an hour and a half long Youtube video to prove it, but it's a solid theory.

If this was actually the case and it created one super ending from two stories that I absolutely loved but was incredibly let down by their endings, I would literally cry with happiness.

Fuck it. If their new ending content still doesn't make sense, I'm just gonna make my own ending in my head that will go along with yours.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

if you have "low" galactic rediness..and destruction is your only option...does shepard "wake up" (you know the shot..shepard surround by concrete/rubble and a *gasp*..I haer that only happens if you choose destruction)

because if he/she doesnt..then mabye that indicates shepard dies while in his/her reaper-fever dream, mabye from the indoctrination attempt itself or sraty enemies, injurys or god knows

wild guessing there..but still

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

[snip.

if you have "low" galactic rediness..and destruction is your only option...does shepard "wake up" (you know the shot..shepard surround by concrete/rubble and a *gasp*..I haer that only happens if you choose destruction)

because if he/she doesnt..then mabye that indicates shepard dies while in his/her reaper-fever dream, mabye from the indoctrination attempt itself or sraty enemies, injurys or god knows

wild guessing there..but still

You ONLY get the "Shepard's Alive" scene if you choose destruction AND have the sufficient amount of War Assets/Galactic Readiness.

 

[Alhazred]

Really, indoctrination is just a way of softening the blow of the indescribably awful ending. It all comes down to Shepard's behavior and motivations.

If the savior of humanity blindly and unquestioningly follows the orders of an ancient AI and fucks over the galaxy, thats character defilement of the highest level. Especially when you consider that catalyst's reasoning that sentient life can't play nicely together was blown out of the water by Shepard's actions in the past three games.

However, if we take Shepard's actions as the result of Reaper indoctrination, then it exonerates Shepard. Instead of a moron who didn't think to question the creator of the omnicidal cosmic horrors, Shepard becomes a victim, a tragic hero who thought he was saving the galaxy when instead he was playing right into the Reapers' hands.

In the end, just what was going through Shepard's head when he stepped into those beams of light is immaterial. Whether a fool or a puppet, the horrific consequences of his actions still happened.

 

[RedDeadFred]

[snip.

if you have "low" galactic rediness..and destruction is your only option...does shepard "wake up" (you know the shot..shepard surround by concrete/rubble and a *gasp*..I haer that only happens if you choose destruction)

because if he/she doesnt..then mabye that indicates shepard dies while in his/her reaper-fever dream, mabye from the indoctrination attempt itself or sraty enemies, injurys or god knows

wild guessing there..but still

If you have high galactic readiness and you choose destroy, Shepard will live. Destroy is the only option that defeats the Reapers according to the theory. So why is it that if you have a low galactic readiness, the destroy option is the only one you get? If the Reapers were really putting you in a forced dream where they give you multiple options (two resulting in them winning, destroy resulting in them losing) why would they on the low galactic readiness occasion only give you the choice that kills them?

 

[razer17]

IT's a ridiculous conspiracy theory. Trying to bend the facts to fit some sort of truth that only you can see. Yes, it's a nice theory in that it explains why the ending sucked, but it's not the real ending and never will be. Why on earth would Bioware make such a cryptic story anyway? They couldn't even concieve of something this fucking complex.

The fact that someone has made an hour and a half documentary about this is incredibly sad, may I add. Whoever the creator of that video is needs to get a life, and a different hobby. MAybe a job. What a waste of human endeavour.

In summary - Indoctrination theory IS NOT THE REAL STORY. And if Bioware add it in the DLC, which I highly doubt and if they do I'll eat my Xbox, it's purely because of the people saying it's true and how it explains stuff. And then the people who first said it will think it's evidence that they were right.

 

[Vault101]

[snip?

but (as Ive just been told) even though destroy is the only option if you have "low" galatic readyness...you dont get to see shepard survive

(If Im going to put on my tin foil hat) mabye thats saying for whatever reason not having high enough galactic readyness means shepard can't survive eather the indoctrination attempt istelf or the battle ranging on outside (mabye a brute steped on his/her head because there weren't enough forces to prevent that)

I did wonder as to why they would give you the destroy option in the first place if they are constructing this seaqunce...but perhaps because shepard is so strong willed he/she has to be carfully guided and they cant outright force the indoctrination, it is obvious that the starchild is "perseuding" you to choose synthasis/controll...and as I've said those options (particually synthasis) seem "correct" for a paragon or somwhat genre savvy player, eather way it all goes agaisnt the pattern weve played in game