Mass Effect 3 Plot Holes (Explanation?)

[Distance_warrior]

I would like to point out that while the Geth are friendly the Quarians most certainly aren't and it is most likely the organics fault that synthetics wipe things out and in my mind it would always be pre-emptive self defence that is completely justifiable. Robots are reasonable at all times as the Geth proved while organics not so much as proved by the Quarians(they didn't even try negotiating they just assumed the Geth would hate them).

Another thing was is that it never explained what the catalyst was and the Protheans could have very well figured out how to interfere with the catalysts systems and that it was the catalyst alone that could activate the citadel.

I also believe that the reapers and the catalyst did have organic civilisations best interests at heart but in the warped sense that people tend to get when they are removed from the physical world where they assume that their values are more important than others because they are superior. I'm drawing this from the conversation on Virmire when seen with hindsight, mainly the "salvation through destruction" and "we are beyond your comprehension". In my mind this would cause the catalyst to value the way that species flourish when they get to the galactic stage without interference and they probably leave the mass relays because it only values their civilisation at the apex of its glory.

Edit: when you think about it if i was given the choice between letting humanity continue for a another couple hundred years before being destroyed entirely or storing the essence of what we are as a species in a giant metal squid thing to live on for all eternity I'd choose the squid thing that way humanity could never die.

 

[honestdiscussioner]

1. It is entirely possible that The Catalyst had some sort of safety switch in its programming that prevented it from opening the relay itself as a measure in the case it may go rouge and to prevent a early false start on the invasion

I don't know if I could buy this. VI's go rouge, AI's don't. They merely "change their minds", like humans do. I don't think an entity that believes itself to be smart enough to completely shape the entire galaxy would install such a limitation on itself, especially given it was so quick to alter course. Besides, why would it trust the reapers more than it would trust itself?

2. Making peace with the Geth does not prove anything for or against the catalyst's reasoning. There is no evidence that the peace will last, that the Geth wont go evil one day, that some future synthetic race could be reasoned with, that THOSE synthetics wont try to kill everything, so on and so on. All the Geth peace shows is that peace with the Geth was made because they had a common enemy to fight. Admittedly The Ctalyst provides no proof to to his point, but the games offer no proof against it eiather.

This I also have a problem with. EDI's entire arc was dedicated to the fact that she was an AI that was entirely benign and just wanted to get a long with everyone. The way to make the Geth have peace was not to force it upon them, but to force the Quarian's to just stop fucking shooting at them for 60 seconds and the Geth just handed them their planet back, with lots of free help. There's nothing in the entire ME universe that would suggest that AI's will always rebel against their creators, not in this cycle at least. The whole game, when discussing AI's, was all about how they were all life forms with equal rights, then all of a sudden "nope, bad guys that created the need for civilization to be wiped out every so often".

3. As explained in ME1 by vigil The Reapers harvest races and materials from worlds to keep themselves alive during their 50,000 year stasis. The amount of matierals they need to stay alive when in sleep mode is quite large.

Keeping the reapers constantly active as a police force would cause an exponential increase at the rate in which habitable worlds need to be drained for more resources. This exponential increase in resource harvesting would mean habitable worlds would become uninhabitable significantly faster and would eventually cause a war between Organics who want said resources and The Reapers who need them to keep going, which would require the Reapers kill mot organics anyways.

Not only that but leaving organics at a technological level were they could remake AI quikcly means the rate at which new AI is made is drastically increased, and as such the rate in which said AI race might beat The Reapers is also increased.

What they do is the most resource efficient method and causes he lowest probability of what they are trying to stop form happening.

This I have a little bit of an easier time swallowing. It makes a bit more sense at least. I still think that if they were able to keep the Mass Relays running 24/7 with no maintenance for millions of years, they should be able to do the same with the reapers. Why they needed organic life to create a police force is beyond me. Seemed well within their capability to design them without that need.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I don't know if I could buy this. VI's go rouge, AI's don't. They merely "change their minds", like humans do. I don't think an entity that believes itself to be smart enough to completely shape the entire galaxy would install such a limitation on itself, especially given it was so quick to alter course. Besides, why would it trust the reapers more than it would trust itself?

You are acting like the catalyst created itself.

 

[KingofMadCows]

I think they pretty much stopped caring about having the story making sense after they finished ME2. There are a ton of huge plot holes long before the ending stretching back to "The Arrival."

The main plot hook of "The Arrival" is a plot hole. The Reapers have always tried to hide their existence. They make sure that no one can learn of their existence so no one can prepare for their invasion. If it wasn't for the Prothean Beacon, no one would know about the Reapers. In fact, much of the first game was about Saren/Sovereign trying to stop Shepard from learning about the Reapers. So why would the Reapers leave behind an artifact that not only revealed their existence but also gave information on their secret back up plan to invade the galaxy?

Not to mention how the Reaper invasion of earth is a plot hole. It's revealed in ME1 that the Reapers can shut down the Mass Relay network with the Citadel. In fact, in the final ME1 mission, Saren had shut down the Relays and Shepard had to turn the Relays back on to let the Alliance reinforcements through. So why didn't the Reapers just shut down the Relays to prevent the Victory fleet from attacking?

As for the whole organics vs. synthetics thing, I have to say that it's likely that the Star Child has a lot more experience. After all, just because the Quarians and Geth made peace doesn't mean the peace will last forever. It's entirely possible that the creator of the Reapers have seen such alliances break down in the past.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Not to mention how the Reaper invasion of earth is a plot hole. It's revealed in ME1 that the Reapers can shut down the Mass Relay network with the Citadel. In fact, in the final ME1 mission, Saren had shut down the Relays and Shepard had to turn the Relays back on to let the Alliance reinforcements through. So why didn't the Reapers just shut down the Relays to prevent the Victory fleet from attacking?

As I recall a fan asked Patrick Weekes this very question and got an answer

Apparently the Keppers were resisting the Reapers attempts to shut down the network.

Probably due to having their signal altered I would guess.
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http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/Unofficial-Interview-with-Patrick-Weekes-conducted-by-a-fan-at-Pax---UPDATED-11154234-1.html
How did the Reapers storm the Citadel? Why didn't they shut down the relays as per their original plan once they had control?

Originally we planned to have a cutscene of Reapers taking over, Reaper monsters punching buttons, et cetera. But we cut it, partially for resource reasons and partly because it disrupted the pacing.

The Reapers didn't shut down the mass relays because the Keepers interfered with that.

 

[KingofMadCows]

Not to mention how the Reaper invasion of earth is a plot hole. It's revealed in ME1 that the Reapers can shut down the Mass Relay network with the Citadel. In fact, in the final ME1 mission, Saren had shut down the Relays and Shepard had to turn the Relays back on to let the Alliance reinforcements through. So why didn't the Reapers just shut down the Relays to prevent the Victory fleet from attacking?

As I recall a fan asked Patrick Weekes this very question and got an answer

Apparently the Keppers were resisting the Reapers attempts to shut down the network.

Probably due to having their signal altered I would guess.
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http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/Unofficial-Interview-with-Patrick-Weekes-conducted-by-a-fan-at-Pax---UPDATED-11154234-1.html
How did the Reapers storm the Citadel? Why didn't they shut down the relays as per their original plan once they had control?

Originally we planned to have a cutscene of Reapers taking over, Reaper monsters punching buttons, et cetera. But we cut it, partially for resource reasons and partly because it disrupted the pacing.

The Reapers didn't shut down the mass relays because the Keepers interfered with that.

Except that explanation is wrong since Saren was able to shut down the Relays in ME1.

 

[Vault101]

This I also have a problem with. EDI's entire arc was dedicated to the fact that she was an AI that was entirely benign and just wanted to get a long with everyone. The way to make the Geth have peace was not to force it upon them, but to force the Quarian's to just stop fucking shooting at them for 60 seconds and the Geth just handed them their planet back, with lots of free help. There's nothing in the entire ME universe that would suggest that AI's will always rebel against their creators, not in this cycle at least. The whole game, when discussing AI's, was all about how they were all life forms with equal rights, then all of a sudden "nope, bad guys that created the need for civilization to be wiped out every so often".
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yeah...the quarians were being jerks

when I acutlaly first heard that they had launched their campagn against the geth I was like

are you fucking kidding me?...REAPERS people

 

[Something Amyss]

Indoctrination theory makes everyhting makes sense[....]
none of this david lynch crap

It is hilarious to see those in conjunction.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Except that explanation is wrong since Saren was able to shut down the Relays in ME1.

Except Saren wasn't a reaper, nor a full husk, also he shut down ONE relay, which is vastly different then shutting them ALL down.

Thus the Keepers wouldn't have recognized his as a Reaper and the alterations of the Keeprs signal wouldn't have mattered to him.

 

[KingofMadCows]

Except that explanation is wrong since Saren was able to shut down the Relays in ME1.

Except Saren wasn't a reaper, nor a full husk, also he shut down ONE relay, which is vastly different then shutting them ALL down.

Thus the Keepers wouldn't have recognized his as a Reaper and the alterations of the Keeprs signal wouldn't have mattered to him.

Except Saren was about to transfer control of the Citadel to Sovereign so that Sovereign could open the Citadel Relay to call the Reapers from Dark Space. Sovereign had already attached to the Citadel and was about to gain control. The Keepers did nothing to interfere.

And if the Keepers can't recognize this as Reaper tech:

They're not going to detect husks.

Also, even if they do detect Reapers and Husks, how exactly would they stop them? Keepers don't have weapons and they can't fight. Plus why didn't they prevent the Reapers from gaining control of the Citadel's other systems? The Reapers were using the Citadel to harvest people and they were able to close its arms. Having access to those systems would allow the Reapers to easily eliminate any Keeper interference.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

What I think they should have done was have you meet another Prothean VI. That would have been something. Remember, the Prothean team got to the Citadel, but they were never heard from again. What if they managed to construct a VI that took the Star Child's place? That way, we don't have to get a lame excuse for the Reapers (personally I didn't even want one), a super weapon being ready to go is no longer a stretch because these science guys poured their last days into getting things set for the next cycle, and the VI's belief in destroying ALL machines no longer sounds crazy because the Protheans had their own problems with machines, and by the end of the game, even after everything you've done, Javik is still leery of EDI and the Geth.

I would like to point out the ending that the original writer of Mass Effect had planned. Remember that sun on halestrom? It was part of a dark energy crisis that was slowly building up over millions of years and would eventually destroy the milky way. The Reapers are trying to stop it, but they have failed to discover a way to. So they harvest the strongest races of the galaxy, pooling their combined intellect into trying to find a way to prevent the dark energy crisis. Because of Humanity's genetic diversity, the Human Reaper was the Reapers best hope for stopping the crisis, but you blew it up.

Is that what Haestrom was all about? It's always nagged me that there was this big mystery in Mass Effect 2, something that seemed like it was really important, and then it's never touched on in Mass Effect 3. I checked the Codex but found nothing. Where did you hear this?

 

[SajuukKhar]

Except Saren was about to transfer control of the Citadel to Sovereign so that Sovereign could open the Citadel Relay to call the Reapers from Dark Space. Sovereign had already attached to the Citadel and was about to gain control. The Keepers did nothing to interfere.

And if the Keepers can't recognize this as Reaper tech:

They're not going to detect husks.

Also, even if they do detect Reapers and Husks, how exactly would they stop them? Keepers don't have weapons and they can't fight. Plus why didn't they prevent the Reapers from gaining control of the Citadel's other systems? The Reapers were using the Citadel to harvest people and they were able to close its arms. Having access to those systems would allow the Reapers to easily eliminate any Keeper interference.

Yep Saren and organic was gonna transfer the systems to sovereign. It wasn't sovereign getting the systems himself.

All we know about the Keepers is that they keep The Citadel functioning.

Vigil states that the reliance on the Keepers prevents organics from learning of the Citadel's Mass relay functions, that is probably the thing they control along with doing the general maintenance.

Furthermore that the citadel council can close the arms at their leisure shows that the Keepers functions probably dont involve controlling the physical movement of The citadel or the arm closing parts of The Citadel.

 

[honestdiscussioner]

I don't know if I could buy this. VI's go rouge, AI's don't. They merely "change their minds", like humans do. I don't think an entity that believes itself to be smart enough to completely shape the entire galaxy would install such a limitation on itself, especially given it was so quick to alter course. Besides, why would it trust the reapers more than it would trust itself?

You are acting like the catalyst created itself.

Not quite. The Catalyst said it was HIS plan [gender assumed]. He created the Reapers as well, or at least started them, then gave them control of when the Citadel relay opened.

 

[honestdiscussioner]

This I also have a problem with. EDI's entire arc was dedicated to the fact that she was an AI that was entirely benign and just wanted to get a long with everyone. The way to make the Geth have peace was not to force it upon them, but to force the Quarian's to just stop fucking shooting at them for 60 seconds and the Geth just handed them their planet back, with lots of free help. There's nothing in the entire ME universe that would suggest that AI's will always rebel against their creators, not in this cycle at least. The whole game, when discussing AI's, was all about how they were all life forms with equal rights, then all of a sudden "nope, bad guys that created the need for civilization to be wiped out every so often".
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yeah...the quarians were being jerks

when I acutlaly first heard that they had launched their campagn against the geth I was like

are you fucking kidding me?...REAPERS people

Yeah . . could not have picked a worse time. I really wonder what would have happened if the Alliance, Asari, Turians, Krogan, Quarians, Geth, Salarians, and Mercs all went after the Reapers at once, if the war could have been handled that way. Focus on taking out the destroyers, without them the ground forces are easy to handle.

 

[JamesStone]

Indoctrination theory makes everyhting makes sense

without it...well if they are going to keep the ending at face value then I want somone from Bioware to actually explain it

none of this david lynch crap

Yeah, "IT WAS ALL A DREAM" really makes sense, especially when it's a giant handwave/middle finger to the audience.

The indocrination theory is not " it as all a dream ". It says that the final scene when Shepard meets the Catalyst was actually Harbinger trying to turn Shepard around. The "implicit" good endings are basically the Reapers goals:
Make someone believe that they are capable of controlling them, getting them closer to the Reapers to then fall victim to indocrination, or combine organics with syntethics, that is, a eufemism for the Reaper creation. Shepard choosing the red ending (the ending the Catalyst spends 90% of the time convincing us that it was the worst) is him fighting the indocrination. That's why he wakes up in a pile of rubble. That's him arriving at the citadel after the dream sequence. I think that the Reapers don't want to preserve organics as a concept. They just need the harvests to survive. They are doing this because they are afraid to die, because they fear the question geth placed: "Does this unit have a soul?" The "salvation to destruction" speech is just a way to indocrinate the subject faster, making them believe the Reapers have higher goals behond survival. They extend their fear to other species. They create more Reapers to immortalize the species, protecting them from extinction by their own.

Hey, makes more sense than "magical AI thinks AI's are bad so he makes organic AI's to first kill the magical AI's creators and to repeat the Mass genocide every time someone creates an AI to avoid such AI to kill the creators"

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

Snip

I do agree that those plotholes are pretty stupid but the biggest one, and there are many many many many more i can think of but the biggest is the fact that the plans for the crucible even exist.

The plans are supposed to have been handed down over hundreds, thousands or possibly millions of cycles, with each cycle adding to the plan... If the Crucible is the only thing that can stop the reapers, why the fuck did the reapers not put a stop to it?

The ENTIRE thing about the Reapers was that they wiped out pretty much all evidence of the past cycles mysterious disappearance. Even if they missed out on the plans once, it just makes the reapers seem like complete idiots if they've forgotten to get rid of the plans for their own destruction millions of times.

 

[Zen Toombs]

What they should have done is have Shepard tell The Catalyst to F off then yell "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE"

And then have a giant robot appear out of nothing and just facepunch The reapers.

Also add in some "we will pierce through your methods and grab a hold of our own path" yelling in there.

because... no one has done that using the same plot..... right? /sarcasm

Bu-but that would have been a far superior ending

THROW LOGIC TO THE CURB AND DO THE IMPOSSIBLE, THATS HOW TEAM DAI GURREN SHEPARD ROLLS!! JUST WHO THE HELL DO THINK WE ARE??!

*ahem*
Every game should have an alternate Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann ending

YES.

THIS MUST HAPPEN.

Toombs approves +7

links?

http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/11064799/1

JessicaMerizan:


[2012/04/05][17:32:47]

[Translate]: @MrBlazenGlazen yes but with some sacrifices depending on the end you chose. Ending is never perfect but Shep/crew reunited is possible Also, it seems like the new endings may hint that the relays will be rebuilt.
http://i.imgur.com/jIbVP.png

Also, new playable content!
http://i.imgur.com/3Ufyr.png

the relay system coming back is an apparent possbility

She is a pretty cool lady. But I'm sorry, but she isn't what one would call a trustworthy source.
Best summarized by these responses to the post you referenced:

Pretty much anything she says can be easily dismissed. She once said she thought perhaps the Normandy had crashed on Mars at the end of the game. Mars. Seriously. She originally said Earth, and when fans disproved that... she said Mars. Pay her no heed and move on.

Be nice to Jessica. She means well, but is generally ignorant of the goings-on inside of Bioware.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Spoiler: The indocrination theory is not " it as all a dream ".

It says that the final scene when Shepard meets the Catalyst was actually Harbinger trying to turn Shepard around. The "implicit" good endings are basically the Reapers goals:
Make someone believe that they are capable of controlling them, getting them closer to the Reapers to then fall victim to indocrination, or combine organics with syntethics, that is, a eufemism for the Reaper creation. Shepard choosing the red ending (the ending the Catalyst spends 90% of the time convincing us that it was the worst) is him fighting the indocrination. That's why he wakes up in a pile of rubble. That's him arriving at the citadel after the dream sequence. I think that the Reapers don't want to preserve organics as a concept. They just need the harvests to survive. They are doing this because they are afraid to die, because they fear the question geth placed: "Does this unit have a soul?" The "salvation to destruction" speech is just a way to indocrinate the subject faster, making them believe the Reapers have higher goals behond survival. They extend their fear to other species. They create more Reapers to immortalize the species, protecting them from extinction by their own.

Hey, makes more sense than "magical AI thinks AI's are bad so he makes organic AI's to first kill the magical AI's creators and to repeat the Mass genocide every time someone creates an AI to avoid such AI to kill the creators"

To the part I spoilered: as much as I like Indoctrination Theory, it does boil down to "the end was just a dream". It's more complicated than that, but it is what it is.

As for the rest...

Spoiler: I think I'll leave this here...

Relevant parts are panel 4 onward. TL;DR version is panels 4 & 5, then 10 onwards.

 

[Dogstile]

Indoctrination theory makes everyhting makes sense

without it...well if they are going to keep the ending at face value then I want somone from Bioware to actually explain it

none of this david lynch crap

Yeah, "IT WAS ALL A DREAM" really makes sense, especially when it's a giant handwave/middle finger to the audience.

The indocrination theory is not " it as all a dream ". It says that the final scene when Shepard meets the Catalyst was actually Harbinger trying to turn Shepard around. The "implicit" good endings are basically the Reapers goals:
Make someone believe that they are capable of controlling them, getting them closer to the Reapers to then fall victim to indocrination, or combine organics with syntethics, that is, a eufemism for the Reaper creation. Shepard choosing the red ending (the ending the Catalyst spends 90% of the time convincing us that it was the worst) is him fighting the indocrination. That's why he wakes up in a pile of rubble. That's him arriving at the citadel after the dream sequence. I think that the Reapers don't want to preserve organics as a concept. They just need the harvests to survive. They are doing this because they are afraid to die, because they fear the question geth placed: "Does this unit have a soul?" The "salvation to destruction" speech is just a way to indocrinate the subject faster, making them believe the Reapers have higher goals behond survival. They extend their fear to other species. They create more Reapers to immortalize the species, protecting them from extinction by their own.

Hey, makes more sense than "magical AI thinks AI's are bad so he makes organic AI's to first kill the magical AI's creators and to repeat the Mass genocide every time someone creates an AI to avoid such AI to kill the creators"

Except if I recall the reason you got the other options later was because they indoctrinated you more as you got more war assets, as this represented the time you were going around getting them.

Which is ruined by anderson mentioning that its been a few weeks since you left earth. Because I can get no war assets and he will mention that. It also doesn't make sense for war assets you get/don't get before the game.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

The biggest plothole in the starchild's reasoning for me is that he himself is an AI. A synthethic. Fuck that guy seriously.

Well tbf we don't actually know for sure what the hell he is. He's clearly not 'organic', but he doesn't look or act like any kind of AI/VI we've seen before, and at no point does he say that he himself is synthetic, so there's not much evidence to suggest that's what he is either. One thing that particularly puzzled me was the 'form' he takes to speak with you appears to have no origin. It's not being projected from anywhere that you can see, it just appears out of thin air, and appears to move just as fluidly and naturally as any solid entity would.

Of course this just substitutes one problem for another, the other being yet another layer of the ending that isn't fucking explained! I pray to God that the Extended cut can at least clear up some of this shit in a satisfactory fashion. I loved most every second up until the ending, so it won't take as much to satisfy me as maybe some others, but even I can't excuse what we have right now.