Mass Effect - Is what the reapers have been doing really evil?
- Thread starter Shiftshaper
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Sovereign- ?We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.?
Harbinger- ?That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.?
From my perspective I feel that the Reapers are similar to farmers of some sort. They allow Galactic Civilization to evolve along a certain path so that when it comes time to "harvest their crop" it is in a usable form for them. And that they honestly believe that when they fuse the strongest species together to form a Reaper that they are uplifting them to perfection.
Harbinger- ?That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.?
From my perspective I feel that the Reapers are similar to farmers of some sort. They allow Galactic Civilization to evolve along a certain path so that when it comes time to "harvest their crop" it is in a usable form for them. And that they honestly believe that when they fuse the strongest species together to form a Reaper that they are uplifting them to perfection.
Honestly, the antagonists in Mass Effect are probably one of the series' weakest and strongest points. The reapers are so one dimensional and ripped off from Terminators and the Borg that they're almost perfect serving as the Macguffin bad guys.
With out the depth that's shown in the main characters (ex-Shepard) and the universe around them, this series wouldn't have gone far. Probably would have been just as bland as Halo instead of reaching for greatness of Star Trek even.
Or another words, No! What the reapers are doing here isn't evil. Calling them evil is like calling the Bubonic plague evil. They have no conscience, there just wasn't enough depth written in to gain that sense and I'm pretty sure it was all done on purpose.
You have to understand the method of their madness to consider them evil, and all the Reapers are interested in is assimilating and being one hair trigger away from spouting lines like "Resistance is futile," or "Hasta La vista, Baby!"
LoL
With out the depth that's shown in the main characters (ex-Shepard) and the universe around them, this series wouldn't have gone far. Probably would have been just as bland as Halo instead of reaching for greatness of Star Trek even.
Or another words, No! What the reapers are doing here isn't evil. Calling them evil is like calling the Bubonic plague evil. They have no conscience, there just wasn't enough depth written in to gain that sense and I'm pretty sure it was all done on purpose.
You have to understand the method of their madness to consider them evil, and all the Reapers are interested in is assimilating and being one hair trigger away from spouting lines like "Resistance is futile," or "Hasta La vista, Baby!"
LoL
It's not evil, but not for the convoluted reason you state. Your reasoning is flawed since the natural processes that drive life and civilization need no outside help. It's like justifying killing someone by saying it would have heppened anyway eventually.Shiftshaper said:
But it's still not evil, at least no more evil than humans eating beef or a lion running down a gazelle. We are their food, so they come and hunt and eat. That's not "evil", they aren't doing it to be mean, they can't "go vegetarian". And we exercise our natural right as prey to fight back. If a buffalo can kick down a lion and stomp its arse, good on him!
Depends.
I finished ME2 like 5 times but never played the first one.
I feel lame for saying this, but if the Reapers leave a good sized group of all races alone after their harvesting then yay, hooray for crowd control.
But if they were to just kill everything then that would suck, and they would be just like the Rachi if they didnt get curb stomped by the Krogan.
As for evil? They're just doing what they need to survive and they have no concept of emotion or morality.
That said I found their method of 'reproduction' funny as hell...
...wait, I mean them melting people into goo to inject them into a big dopey lookin' skeleton, not giant metally, blobby space squidie se-...
...wait...nevermind.
I finished ME2 like 5 times but never played the first one.
I feel lame for saying this, but if the Reapers leave a good sized group of all races alone after their harvesting then yay, hooray for crowd control.
But if they were to just kill everything then that would suck, and they would be just like the Rachi if they didnt get curb stomped by the Krogan.
As for evil? They're just doing what they need to survive and they have no concept of emotion or morality.
That said I found their method of 'reproduction' funny as hell...
...wait, I mean them melting people into goo to inject them into a big dopey lookin' skeleton, not giant metally, blobby space squidie se-...
...wait...nevermind.
Agreed, although personally I found many of the ME2 characters to be one dimensional cliches and stereotypes.Nomanslander said:
But damn good takes on stereotypes nonetheless, definately some of the best characters in gaming, though so far thats saying almost nothing.
Any plan that relies on "Let's commit genocide and exterminate every species with space travel with regular intervalls" is in no way a good or even neutral plan. It is an evil plan. Whatever their intentions or motivations, the Reapers crossed the Moral Event Horizon the same instant they decied to systematically purge the milky way of all technologically advanced species regularly.
Shepard's exchange with Sovereign is not the only time a human speaks directly to a Reaper. Any of you guys read Mass Effect: Retribution?
Basically, one character becomes an avatar of the Reapers, not unlike Saren in ME ("The implants!"). Another character confronts them and asks them why they are doing what they are doing. They reply that they are seeking to elevate the mortal races, take them one step beyond the imperfections of genetics and evolution. The Reapers consider themselves the pinnacle of evolution and they seek to take other races there as well, take them to the next level of existence and understanding.
Instead of seeing what they are doing as genocide or self preservation, one could look at it as a painful but necessary step in the evolution of organic life. Perhaps we have reached our limits as far as evolution goes, maybe it is time to take the next step, as unpleasant as that may be? Not my opinion necessarily, but one way of looking at the Reapers' activities.
Instead of seeing what they are doing as genocide or self preservation, one could look at it as a painful but necessary step in the evolution of organic life. Perhaps we have reached our limits as far as evolution goes, maybe it is time to take the next step, as unpleasant as that may be? Not my opinion necessarily, but one way of looking at the Reapers' activities.
...by mincing us up into DNA paste.Dreey said:
I'll take my chances with the beings from other galaxies, thanks.
Actually it was ripped straight from Fred Saberhagen's Berserker series. Seriously, the books are about a series of mechanized doomsday weapons left over from an interstellar war between two races of extraterrestrials from 50,000 years ago that are designed to wipe out all sentient life.Ghostwise said:
OT: We still don't really know the true purpose, motivation, and original intent of the Reapers. Perhaps they are simply a security system for a nearby galaxy that is meant prevent any technologically superior species from migrating outside of the Milky way. Perhaps they provide a necessary service, a la Galactus and without this cycle of creation and destruction the Galaxy would eventually destroy itself.
It's also worth noting that the Reapers themselves cannot be evil any more than a toaster can be evil. They are machines, they can only do what they were programmed to do. Until we know why they were designed and by whom, we can't really judge their actions as 'evil'.
The Reapers aren't bringing about a natural end to civilization though. The Reapers don't represent time or death, at least not to me.
"We are the vanguard of your destruction."
Does that sound like something you'd welcome? Wouldn't you want to stop Sovereign, Harbinger, and all the Reapers from wiping out all life in the galaxy if you knew thats what they were doing?
They do represent time, but not in the way you see it (at least from my POV). They represent the time when every civilization or great empire must prove it's worth. They have to show they deserve to exist or be at the top. While this story is about the galactic struggle against the Reapers, it's more about Humanity proving it's worth (through Commander Shepard).
If someone threatens your way of life, it's a natural response to view whoever or whatever as evil.
"We are the vanguard of your destruction."
Does that sound like something you'd welcome? Wouldn't you want to stop Sovereign, Harbinger, and all the Reapers from wiping out all life in the galaxy if you knew thats what they were doing?
They do represent time, but not in the way you see it (at least from my POV). They represent the time when every civilization or great empire must prove it's worth. They have to show they deserve to exist or be at the top. While this story is about the galactic struggle against the Reapers, it's more about Humanity proving it's worth (through Commander Shepard).
They don't see us as evil. The don't see us as anything more than livestock essentially. I mean they've been systematically harvesting the galaxy every 50,000 years or so for millions of years. We are their "food" so to speak. At least thats what we know so far.andrew21 said:
If someone threatens your way of life, it's a natural response to view whoever or whatever as evil.
I don't the Reapers have to necessarily be evil, but I think that they're pretty much beyond a human comprehension of good and evil.
There is (so far) no reason for what they do. Saren gives a vague statement of 'we are beyond your understanding' and I hold to that. Whatever the heck they are doing is on such a cosmis level that we culdn't even think of a name or label for their actions.
Its a clear case of Blue and Orange morality systems in play. Since we tend to see things in Black and White (Evil and Good) a Blue and Orange morality system refers to a morality system so far removed from our own that there aren't even any points of reference to it.
So they're not evil, but they're not good, they are and exist on a level completeyl removed from our own.
There is (so far) no reason for what they do. Saren gives a vague statement of 'we are beyond your understanding' and I hold to that. Whatever the heck they are doing is on such a cosmis level that we culdn't even think of a name or label for their actions.
Its a clear case of Blue and Orange morality systems in play. Since we tend to see things in Black and White (Evil and Good) a Blue and Orange morality system refers to a morality system so far removed from our own that there aren't even any points of reference to it.
So they're not evil, but they're not good, they are and exist on a level completeyl removed from our own.
Is reproducing evil? Because that's sure as hell what they're doing. Still, evil and good are just philosophical concepts with no basis in real world. It's a concept created by the mind to deem certain actions desirable and certain actions undesirable. It has roots in morality and morality, just like good and evil, is just a construct of our minds.Parallel Streaks said:
Also, is a certain type of wasp evil for reproducing at the cost of a life? Is it wrong of that moronic bird that always annoys me to sacrifice the life of others just so their own offspring survive? It's not, at all.
Still, there's a deeper meaning to what's happening here and until we find out the backstory of the Reapers we have no basis on which to judge them on.