A friend of mine only considers games with multiple story paths as a true RPG. Fable 2, for example, isn't a 'proper RPG'. Personally I prefer RPGs like Fable 2; less time wandering around ridiculously big worlds and more time completing quests.
Mass Effect isn't an RPG?!
- Thread starter TheDrunkNinja
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Dammit. For once, I really thought I had a good reason to use this.Chunko said:
EDIT: I'm showing this image not to antagonize anyone, but because I think it's funny as shit.
Well, it's there for anyone who gives a--wait a minute.
Anyway. Look, just whatever, okay? I'm not going to change how you feel about the game. You can go ahead and call it a light RPG (although, if that is the case, you would have to admit to Fallout 3 being a "light" RPG as well), my whole point was that it was still an RPG. I mean, people didn't by the game in droves because they thought it was a great TPS.
It's a forum. It's not "butting in".s69-5 said:
If you feel like UBERfionn was trying to start a flame war, take it up with the moderators, because it doesn't look any different from any other opinionated comment on this entire website. And, I'm not targeting the wrong side. You just feel like it's the wrong side because you feel like JRPGers are being antagonized. You know what prejudice leads to? More prejudice. Let me explain before you freak out and start calling me a bias Bioware fanboy.
No, I don't think that UBERfionn's comment was specifically flame-bait. I'll tell you whose were though. Zeithri's. HG131's. Both sides of the argument. If I had a hilarious image of two JRPG and WRPG fans screaming at each other like every other tard, I would post it. Guess what? There's a difference between saying you disagree and saying "You're just plain wrong." Between the two of them, I don't know how many times I saw both of them go through peoples comments saying "You're wrong. You're wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong." And let me tell you, I've gotten backlashes from both sides of this little debate. You claim I'm defending the wrong side because you feel like there's a bias against JRPGs.
I swear, it's like working as a camp counselor all over again. One kid starts having a tantrum because another provoked him, so I have to haul both kids over to the main office where he asks why he's in trouble when he was just defending himself. I've had to tell people twice that I didn't even mention JRPGs despite that everyone thinks because a made a single point of Role Playing that I'm bias against JRPGs. If it seems like I'm overreacting, it's because I have a thread full of people making bias accusations back and forth to each other. Not because WRPG players suddenly went rabid like you think they did, and in the chaos, you yourself failed to notice your own devolution. You're entire comment amounted to "But they started it!" I don't think there's a parent in history who's ever let that excuse fly.
I suppose that's the key word here. Parent. I'm dealing with a bunch of little children. It was fine at first stepping back and letting people throw their silly "You're wrong" arguments, other than when I asked Zeithri to stop yelling at people and calm down. But now that people are pointing fingers at everyone who disagrees with them, (i.e., me) well, yeah, I'm gonna fucking call people out on that one. Forgive me for the lecture, but, seriously, I needed to make it clear where I'm coming from on this.
And, seriously? "I should have known better"? So, what? Is the term "RPG" taboo in the gaming forums now? Am I not allowed to make a thread about any Bioware games in fear of a JRPG bashing session? Well then, let's ban all JRPG threads on the Escapist while we're at it, since we all know it will turn into a WRPG bash session as well.
Ultimately, the point is stop acting so high an mighty like everyone around you is a rabid fanboy and you're the only sane person in the thread. When exposed to the internet, nobody is safe from the rage virus. If only people would fucking learn that not everyone agrees with them. Or better yet, at least acknowledge it.
i would agree that ME is an "action RPG".
that said and this is kinda off-topic, i am currently re-playing ME2 as a renegade, am i find i am having a much harder time increasing my renegade score than i did my paragon score.
it bothers me that some of the simple side quests (e.g. returning the ring to the Asari in Illium) do not have a renegade option to complete them. why can't i extort money from her? if the game is going to let me be a jack ass, let me be a jack ass dammit!
that said and this is kinda off-topic, i am currently re-playing ME2 as a renegade, am i find i am having a much harder time increasing my renegade score than i did my paragon score.
it bothers me that some of the simple side quests (e.g. returning the ring to the Asari in Illium) do not have a renegade option to complete them. why can't i extort money from her? if the game is going to let me be a jack ass, let me be a jack ass dammit!
I think the biggest problem is trying to use RPG as a genre title to begin with, as almost every game has you playing a role, whether you make choices and level up or not. I think we should just toss out the RPG and JRPG titles, and rename them to choice-based game and stat-based game.Thaius said:
That's just me, though.
It only did the shooting for you if you let it. I tend to do my own shooting myself. I guess if a person isn't any good, they could rely on the computer to do it for them, but that detracts from the fun, imo. I guess you could call it an interactive movie then, if you let the computer autopilot all it for you.No_Remainders said:
*shrugs*
But then again, using things like aiming assist and the like on other games would reduce them to pretty much the same, no? That would reduce many games to "interactive movie" experience. I guess it's when a person steps up and take more control of the character in acting out their role that makes it a role-playing game.
personally, I think it should have many of the traditional aspects of RPG games. Level up via experience, inventory management, dialog choices, choice of where to go (also known as freeroam), ability to have more than a single person in your party, ect.
Both Mass Effect 2 and Fallout 3 contained these. The difference was camera perspective. Does a RPG have to be top-down or the 'ol 3/4 overhead view to qualify now?
We don't live in the days of SNES anymore, people. Get over the nostalgia and get with the future.
Please. The point wasn't directed at you, merely that you are far to one-sided on the issue, claiming bias without truly looking at that which you defend as they sit with the guilty party. The sentence is deserving of all in this case. You asked me to look at others (UBERfionn) for the blame of flame-bait, so I proceeded to tell you that everyone is guilty in this case. Guess you didn't take it well.s69-5 said:
If I had actually referred directly to you (other than the whole "one-sided defending" thing), it was a mistake on my part. It was intended for you to hear, but it was directed at people like HG131 and Zeithri.
Yeah, I figured you would try to use the parent metaphor against me, but what can you do? When you're faced with a bunch of "I'm right, you're wrong!" arguments, followed up by "They started it!" not a lot else comes to mind.
But again, it was clearly for naught since you still seem to hold to the belief that the select people are not in the wrong and claiming that there has never been the opposite effect of bashing. I suppose it's not obvious when I tell you that statement is absolutely false. I can personally attest to that...
I actually stopped reading here.Shydun Afaya said:
The only weapon you could ACTUALLY use to aim down the sights with (without bullets going EVERYWHERE except where you wanted it to) was the sniper rifle; which was ineffective against nigh on everything when you were up close.
Of course; I could go around with a melee weapon; but that defeats the whole purpose of a game having guns.
It's funny how many people say "I DID ALL THE SHOOTING BY MYSELF IN FALLOUT 3!" yet they fail to realise that aiming down sights didn't actually work; it barely focused the camera better and whatever gun you were using still sprayed bullets at every corner of the screen.
First and foremost, I do indeed do all my shooting myself. Never gave me an issue. I know how to differ weapon types. pistols for close range, assault weapons shine at close to medium range, ans rifles for long range.No_Remainders said:
If you're having trouble using a short to medium range weapon to hit something far away, common sense would say to get closer or switch weapon types. Also, upping your firearms skill in the respective weapon class (laser, ect.) cause the weapon not only to become more powerful, but more accurate as well. If you notice, the automatic weapons shoot in a slightly ovoid pattern. When the skill increases, the oval shrinks, making the weapon far more accurate. With a maxed firearms skill, I can outshoot what I normally do with a regular-grade (non-sniper) rifle.
The only thing I could recommend would be building your character with a better build and learning to play better.
Other than that, perhaps this style of game is just not for you. Could I recommend Starcraft 2? It seems rather popular for the moment.
P.S. Out of a sense of respect for what you wrote, I read your entire post before responding. It leads to a more coherent response, I think.
Ah, RPG's. Usually easy to spot, yet ridiculously difficult to define.
Personally, I don't have a specific definition or anything, just games I could point to and say "this is an RPG" or "This is a ______ with RPG elements." I think you're arguments as to why ME is an RPG are perfectly valid, but your friend's confusion likely stems from the fact that all electronic RPG's were JRPG's (because Japan was the only country making the things) and were based off of the original tabletop games, which needed to use turn-based combat as a necessity. Kind of like how someone could be forgiven for thinking that Metal music is all angry. Just because a large majority of a medium follows a pattern doesn't mean that the pattern is the defining feature.
Personally, I don't have a specific definition or anything, just games I could point to and say "this is an RPG" or "This is a ______ with RPG elements." I think you're arguments as to why ME is an RPG are perfectly valid, but your friend's confusion likely stems from the fact that all electronic RPG's were JRPG's (because Japan was the only country making the things) and were based off of the original tabletop games, which needed to use turn-based combat as a necessity. Kind of like how someone could be forgiven for thinking that Metal music is all angry. Just because a large majority of a medium follows a pattern doesn't mean that the pattern is the defining feature.
Ah, but when you think about it, the only reason there was a 'copter was because the devs needed a really cool way for Garrus to get seriously hurt. More character focus.Malyc said:
I've had to argue this to death now and if you read several of my later post I do say that "by in large" JRPG's are not RPG's.blakfayt said:
A lot of JRPG's just make you a butler to the PC. This can lead to great games but makes them less and less like RPG's. Others are real RPG's like the one's you mention.
A hell of a lot don't fall into the RPG category. Admittedly some do but other that are not but have kinda the same look about them still get tossed into the RPG category. Hell it happens too much with so called western RPG's as well.Zeithri said:
That's what bothers me.
It happens all the time with the whole "action adventure" genre.
The heart of the debate lies in the simple fact that there is strict definition of what RPG actually means. Literally, it could be interpreted as a game where you play a role, a definition that would include any story driven game ever made. This is obviously not a terribly useful definition.
In a less general way, an RPG can be considered as a game that allows for narrative agency and/or character agency. Before anyone hits the "angry flame" button, let me take a moment to describe what I mean by that.
Narrative agency means that I, as a player, have some measure of control over the plot beyond simply determining if it advances or not. Most games you'll find do not offer much narrative agency to the player.
Character agency means that I, as a player, have some control over how my character or characters develop. This can take many forms. It may be that I can control a series of stat systems that determine what my character can or cannot do, or perhaps simply determine what my character is proficient at and what he is not. This can take many forms, from the management of complex interelated systems (Such as the character System in D&D), a simple version of the same where options are divided into a series of distinct choices (like in Diablo 2 or World of Warcraft for example), or the management of items and mcguffins that alter the way the character can approach the world (Dungeon Siege for example). It could also take a narrative turn where I can control how my character responds to the world. Note that this only counts for something if the world is capable of changing in response to a change in it's perception of my character. The most recent notable example of this would be Alpha Protocol, but I suspect few actually found anything laudable in that game.
You'll find that such a definition would generally include the various opinions people have about what makes an "RPG". The trouble is, it is still a wide enough definition that it includes a surprising number of games and worse still, it excludes certain games that some people will insist to the bitter end is an RPG just because past examples were RPGs as well.
If we can assume that the given conditions are at least fairly close to the truth, we can examine several games to see how they stack up.
Modern Warfare 2: The player is given no narrative agency. The plot will progress in the same way regardless of choice. There is no character agency either as any choice that would alter the character in a significant way results in a fail state (that is, the player can simply give up and not play any more). As such, I can assume that MW2 is not an RPG.
Mass Effect: The player is given a degree of narrative agency. At several points throughout the story, the player is allowed to make choices that, in some way, alter the story being told. The beginning and the end are, however, generally fixed as is the path the player will take and as such the narrative agency is limited. The player is allowed to choose, in a general way, how to approach a situation. In some cases, this choice of tone will alter the narrative. The player is also allowed to pick from a limited set of skills that give some measure of control over how the game is played but the differences are often slight. The player is also allowed to alter the gear of their character, but the choices generally amount to replace X with a better version of X and thus the value of the choice is rendered moot from a systems perspective. Given that Mass Effect has both narrative agency and character agency, the game could be correctly called an RPG.
Final Fantasy 13: The player is given no narrative agency. The plot is strictly linear with no significant variation allowed. The player has only minimal character agency. While the precise route one takes with the characters will vary, the end result is the same regardless of choice. The only way to alter either character or narrative requires the introduction of a fail state (the player can choose to not finish the game). Final Fantasy 13, in spite of the very minor character agency, is probably not best described as an RPG.
Mass Effect 2: Generally the same as the previous game. Narrative agency remains the same though character agency shifts to a degree. A player has fewer options for skills but those choices tend to result in a more distinct difference in how the game is played. There are fewer items but the choice is no longer between x and better x, but rather between x and y meaning the choice often impacts how proficiently a player can approach a given challenge. Because a player has both narrative agency and character agency, Mass Effect 2 could correctly be called an RPG.
In a less general way, an RPG can be considered as a game that allows for narrative agency and/or character agency. Before anyone hits the "angry flame" button, let me take a moment to describe what I mean by that.
Narrative agency means that I, as a player, have some measure of control over the plot beyond simply determining if it advances or not. Most games you'll find do not offer much narrative agency to the player.
Character agency means that I, as a player, have some control over how my character or characters develop. This can take many forms. It may be that I can control a series of stat systems that determine what my character can or cannot do, or perhaps simply determine what my character is proficient at and what he is not. This can take many forms, from the management of complex interelated systems (Such as the character System in D&D), a simple version of the same where options are divided into a series of distinct choices (like in Diablo 2 or World of Warcraft for example), or the management of items and mcguffins that alter the way the character can approach the world (Dungeon Siege for example). It could also take a narrative turn where I can control how my character responds to the world. Note that this only counts for something if the world is capable of changing in response to a change in it's perception of my character. The most recent notable example of this would be Alpha Protocol, but I suspect few actually found anything laudable in that game.
You'll find that such a definition would generally include the various opinions people have about what makes an "RPG". The trouble is, it is still a wide enough definition that it includes a surprising number of games and worse still, it excludes certain games that some people will insist to the bitter end is an RPG just because past examples were RPGs as well.
If we can assume that the given conditions are at least fairly close to the truth, we can examine several games to see how they stack up.
Modern Warfare 2: The player is given no narrative agency. The plot will progress in the same way regardless of choice. There is no character agency either as any choice that would alter the character in a significant way results in a fail state (that is, the player can simply give up and not play any more). As such, I can assume that MW2 is not an RPG.
Mass Effect: The player is given a degree of narrative agency. At several points throughout the story, the player is allowed to make choices that, in some way, alter the story being told. The beginning and the end are, however, generally fixed as is the path the player will take and as such the narrative agency is limited. The player is allowed to choose, in a general way, how to approach a situation. In some cases, this choice of tone will alter the narrative. The player is also allowed to pick from a limited set of skills that give some measure of control over how the game is played but the differences are often slight. The player is also allowed to alter the gear of their character, but the choices generally amount to replace X with a better version of X and thus the value of the choice is rendered moot from a systems perspective. Given that Mass Effect has both narrative agency and character agency, the game could be correctly called an RPG.
Final Fantasy 13: The player is given no narrative agency. The plot is strictly linear with no significant variation allowed. The player has only minimal character agency. While the precise route one takes with the characters will vary, the end result is the same regardless of choice. The only way to alter either character or narrative requires the introduction of a fail state (the player can choose to not finish the game). Final Fantasy 13, in spite of the very minor character agency, is probably not best described as an RPG.
Mass Effect 2: Generally the same as the previous game. Narrative agency remains the same though character agency shifts to a degree. A player has fewer options for skills but those choices tend to result in a more distinct difference in how the game is played. There are fewer items but the choice is no longer between x and better x, but rather between x and y meaning the choice often impacts how proficiently a player can approach a given challenge. Because a player has both narrative agency and character agency, Mass Effect 2 could correctly be called an RPG.