Maybe we should stop ignoring gaming's screams for help.

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lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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I'm getting rather worried for publishers at this point.

They're trying to phase out used games, herd gamers into an easy-to-regulate online environment, and refuse to give up the useless war on piracy. Now they're raising game prices.

Before, it was easy enough to say "Bleh, greedy bastards". But then I finally sat up and took notice that something was VERY amiss when Squeenix came out and said "Tomb Raider has sold five million copies, and has underperformed."

No. I refuse to believe that publishers are "just greedy" at this point. That's like saying a kid who won't run in gym class is "just lazy" when there's bone sticking out of his leg.

There's something deeply wrong with AAA gaming nowadays, and we've been positively blind to it before. It's pretty difficult to remain blind to it nowadays if you actually examine the state of gaming now, with its insane development budgets, insaner marketing budgets, and the ludicrous costs it takes to put increasingly few new things in new games.

Want proof that games cost too much to make? There's five million underperforming copies of Tomb Raider there for you to look at.

We're stretching ourselves too thin. We want more, newer, better, flashier, and we want it all at the same price. Reading that sentence twice should reveal the problem. Gamers want more and more stuff in their games, but don't want to pay extra for all the more that they're getting.

I propose that we drop back to the year of Crysis. It looked very good, and stagnating for a year right around there would force developers to stop constantly overwriting their engines and actually start optimizing the damn things. Optimization would substantially reduce the costs associated with high-budget gaming, yet result in impressive technical advancements at a very reduced cost, keep the current audience, and maybe we'd get publishers who are willing to take a damn creative risk for once when a flop game is no longer almost a death sentence.

Gamer demands have put us in this mess, so I think it's fair that we're saddled with the responsibility of getting us out of it. Fortunately, that's easy to do: If nothing else, at least support RESPONSIBLE development, rather than the cutting-edge stuff. Remember how American McGee said that gamers need to realize that games cost a lot of money to make? He's right.

We've got to drive market forces towards a sustainable direction, or we WILL have a crash. Devs are spending exponentially more on logarithmic decreasing returns because that's what we want. It doesn't take a genius to figure out where that leads.
 

ShinyCharizard

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Oct 24, 2012
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I really don't think people are asking for the kinds of things devs put into games these days. No one cares if your tree foliage is slightly less blurry than the competition or if your characters hair has some fancy tress fx bullshit added to it. The sooner we have devs and publishers spending less time on useless shit like that and instead as you said being more responsible with development the better.

I think a bigger problem though is the kind of marketing budgets the publishers spend these days. It's fucking insane to spend 50+ million on marketing the third or fourth game in a series when everyone who cares is already well aware of it. Games are bought based on word of mouth and reviews rather than TV ads and billboards, about time publishers realized this.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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*shrug*

Whatever happens will happen.

I can't wave my hand and make something amazing happen and, unless I'm much mistaken, neither can you. I can't make developers/publishers "develop responsibly". What am I supposed to do, write a letter to EA?

I just buy stuff I like, or at least stuff I think I will like, and hope for the best.
 

The Madman

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Dec 7, 2007
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The problem isn't gamers being greedy, the problem is ridiculous mismanagement and bloated production costs. It's gotten ridiculous how much is spent on these games when it's not even needed, an absolutely massive chunk of which is purely dedicated to pointless celebrities and advertising when it isn't more mundane things such as staff turnover, licensing, or constantly rebuilding a game over and over like Duke Nukem Forever did.

Whether you like the game or not I think everyone can agree Witcher 2 was a properly impressive game. Visually it's one of the best games out today, it's soundtrack was beautiful and fully orchestrated, regional voice actors are of excellent quality, and it even had nifty packaging if you bought it retail. You know how much that game cost?

8 million

Which is a lot, to be sure, but now let's take a quick look at Tomb Raider. If the publishers made even just ten dollars from every copy sold, which I'd say is a more than conservative estimate, and they only just broke even at 5 million copies sold that puts their budget at at least 50 million dollars. Where the hell did all that money go? I'll say it right now, Witcher 2 was the more impressive feat by a longshot. It looked and sounded a hell of a lot better, was definitely bigger and more ambitious, and was made by a less experienced developer. Even taking into account cheaper staffing costs since CD Projekt RED is Polish that's just a staggering difference. What hole did all that money vanish into? What was it all being used on?

Now I'm just using Witcher 2 and Tomb Raider as examples here but even with other games it holds true. By all reports Star Wars: The Old Republic cost over $200 MILLION to develop and Halo Reach was around $60 million, Skyrim around 85 million, etc etc. It's pretty ridiculous. When you consider all the less popular titles though the average cost of an 'AAA' game hovers around $28 million... However I'll bet you Red Orchestra 2, which looks just as good as any of the above, cost less than half of Witcher 2. Hawken meanwhile was developed on a shoestring budget and looks better than most games out there today by a bunch of enthusiasts. Trine 2, again one of the most visually stunning games I've ever played, budget of around 2 or so million if I had to guess based on the original games budget of around half a million.

So no, it's not gamers fault. It's not even greed as far as I can tell, unless a lot of those budgets are vanishing into someone's pockets. It's just mismanagement and bloated unnecessary costs.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
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It's too late to push it back now. Either it's going to crash, or it's going to continue onward, growing even more bloated. The latter ofcourse not being sustainable for long, so a crash it is. Maybe the triple-A, or should I say quadruple-A side of gaming needs to go sit in the corner for a while, or atleast go take a shower.
 

Smooth Operator

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Oct 5, 2010
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Sorry sir but you were taken in by corporate bullshit, when they said Tomb Raider is under performing they meant it's not the smash hit that they predicted on bullshit Metacritic data, but I bet you any money that didn't even cost 50 mil on actual development while they made a solid 200 mil in sales.

If they got debt holes and bloated marketing to plug that is their problem but don't bullshit us with what development costs.
 

AWAR

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Nov 15, 2009
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I've given up on AAA gaming a loong time ago. The most interesting games come from indie developers and Kickstarters. I see no reason in supporting a bloated industry which hasn't produced anything remarkable in years.
 

GoaThief

Reinventing the Spiel
Feb 2, 2012
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Nintendo need to spend more on marketing, or refresh their whole department at the very least when it comes to first party titles.

Is it time we raised prices across the board? The price of games have not risen with inflation at the bare minimum, and yet people still complain about paying too much. Perhaps we'll see an increase with the launch of new consoles, can't honestly say I'm looking forward to a potential increase but if needs must I'd rather support the industry. Does seem fair after all.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
lacktheknack said:
Gamer demands have put us in this mess

I wonder if we would be in this "mess" if publishers slashed marketing budgets and left development budgets where they are now.

Making games is expensive, very much so, but take TOR for example - an extreme one, but still - that game had ads running on one of the biggest German TV stations for like half a year. How much did that cost EA?

Same with Tomb Raider. Where should they have cut costs, in the development budget or the marketing budget which allowed them to run long TV ads? You could make a case for that being necessary in todays market, but I'm not sure you can make gamers responsible for that. Its not my responsibility to balance EAs budget. Its not my responsibility to keep a publisher affloat. How can you blame customers when a company fails to spend its money in a sensible way? If their demands were so unreasonable, the company shouldn't have strived to fullfill them.

I'm sorry, but the more I think about this, the more stupid this thread seems to me. To apply this to another market - you're essentially saying customers are to blame for Hostess going under because they didn't tell the company to take the cream out of Twinkies to cut costs.
I figured someone would mention this. But don't forget that publishers will go where the money is, and consumers do control that.

Ideally, gamers would go searching for new properties themselves as a collective.

Again, I think we should be actively supporting responsible development and not expect so very, very much from our games. Double Fine, for example, has spent their money absolutely terribly on Broken Age. I'm not sure I want to buy it now, because it supports a terrible precedent. I'm also not sure I want Tomb Raider at this point, because it feels that buying it is supporting the crash of video games, which I don't want to do.
 

Tom_green_day

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Jan 5, 2013
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This seems like another veiled attack on modern gaming (success is debatable).
People seem to forget that publishers are businesses- they need to make money. Higher prices, online passes, getting rid of used games etc- I can totally understand it all. In fact, I'll defend the publishers- they make money, and this is how they make it. It's like when people complain that artists 'sell out' of course they're going to take whatever option makes more money, they need money to survive!
 

Smeatza

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Dec 12, 2011
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It's not my fault that publishers don't think I'll buy their games without spending hundreds of millions on marketing first.

AAA games that have something good to bring to the table are doing fine. The rest can crash and burn as far as I care. Perhaps something better will rise from the ashes.
 

spartandude

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Nov 24, 2009
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If you want a game which shows the failure of AAA budgeting look at Dead Space 3

Now Dead Space 1 and 2 together have sold roughly 4-5 million copies over the years theyve been out for a few years, then EA makes Dead Space 3 which needs to sell 5 million to make a profitable and changed it so much that its doesnt sell as well as either of its predecessors because DS fans dont want it because it wasnt a Dead Space game.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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What a lot of people seem to forget is we are not the majority of the target audience for games. By "we" I mean those of us who visit gaming websites such as this, follow the conferences and discuss the pro's and cons of gaming on forums. The vast majority of gamers are the ones who simply play games and avoid the "politics". We can talk all we like about how we shouldn't support X practice and should boycott Y company for their behaviour, but when it comes down to it, most companies care about the money first and in most cases they will keep on getting it, even if all of "us" stop supporting them.

What I mean is that we can talk all we like about how it is "our" fault for having these wants, but when it comes down to it, we are not the majority here. As long as COD fan No#5,472,402 wants a new COD with shinier shinies and expodier explodies then the market is going to keep on working to crank it out. We can complain as much as we like but as long as they think it will get them the money, they are going to keep on doing it, and there is not a whole lot we can do about it.

Case in point would be how if you look at this website in particular, WOW and COD are not particularly popular games and Assassins Creed 3 is hated by almost everybody, but those games have done pretty damn good for themselves. So clearly despite all of the people voicing the opinion that such games are bad, people are still buying them in droves.
 

TheCommanders

ohmygodimonfire
Nov 30, 2011
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SpunkeyMonkey said:
For example, RPG voiced protagonists - we've had over 20 years of AWESOME gaming and RPGs without voiced protagonists, now people with a lack of imagination start whining because they need to hear someone say the line they just read? It's bullshit, it's moaning for the sake of moaning and places pressure on studios to spend a budget on an area where it isn't essential.
I have to say I kind of think you're imposing your opinion as fact on this one. I personally love voiced rpg protagonists, for the same reason that I like watching dubbed rather than subtitled foreign movies. I *personally* feel that quality voice acting that humanizes my character and mean I can be just as engaged in the visual storytelling as the narrative storytelling - because audio and visual are less exclusive than visual and visual - make up for the limitations a voiced protagonist imposes. That's my opinion. Some share it, some disagree. The thing is, voice acting (other than the occasional huge celebrities games sometimes employ) isn't nearly the portion of the budget you seem to think it is. It isn't like hollywood where the star takes home a significant portion of the profits; most voice actors don't make much money from individual projects (I knew a few people who worked as voice actors in the mid range of the profession that can confirm this). The limitations having a voiced protagonist (and I find it odd that the implication in the way you chose to phrase your critique is that you're fine with the rest of the cast being voiced, but whatever) imposes are more about file size differences for conversations, and the reduction of dialogue options, because of the time it takes to record actual voice work. If you find those to be unacceptable losses, that's fine, but don't try to insist that it's a concrete financial liability, because it isn't.
 

Grimh

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Feb 11, 2009
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Tomb Raider underperformed because it "only" sold like 3.4 million copies in it's first month when they expected to sell 5 million.

What I find interesting is that the Last of Us sold about the same number of copies in about the same amount of time and it has apparently far exceeded Sony's expectations.
 

Flatfrog

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Dec 29, 2010
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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
I wonder if we would be in this "mess" if publishers slashed marketing budgets and left development budgets where they are now.
Yeah, it's easy to say but game theory is against you. The problem is that whatever the current standard marketing budget, someone who spends a bit more is likely to do better. So you can be sure that even if all the companies slashed their costs, it would take very little time before they went up again. It's the 'tallest tree in the forest' argument.
 

Winnosh

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Sep 23, 2010
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Tom_green_day said:
This seems like another veiled attack on modern gaming (success is debatable).
People seem to forget that publishers are businesses- they need to make money. Higher prices, online passes, getting rid of used games etc- I can totally understand it all. In fact, I'll defend the publishers- they make money, and this is how they make it. It's like when people complain that artists 'sell out' of course they're going to take whatever option makes more money, they need money to survive!
That's the problem though That's what this is about. They AREN'T making money with what they're doing so they need to effing stop.