McDonald's Incident (follow up)

[Torrasque]

My feelings about the article:

Okay first of all, would you really expect a mother to do anything less then defend her child? Mothers have defended people who became serial killers or bombers or white supremacists, you really think a mother wouldn't defend her child over something as (relatively) petty as attacking someone at a Mcdonald's?
Parents defend their children, that is fact. So while I agree that she's not really justified in making the claim that her child is an innocent angel I certainly can't be surprised that she did.
I can tell you right now that if a member of my family was brought into hospital with a fractured skull, I would be worried too and I certainly wouldn't be saying 'well she deserved it.'

A metal bat? Really? You can clearly see that it is a thin metal rod.
Metal bat implies that it is a lead pipe, something we all agreed on in the first thread, that it is definitely not.

According to the report one of the women has a fractured skull and a broken arm and the other has severe cuts all over her body.
Call it whatever the hell you want, it still seems to have caused enough damage.

But it gets better.

Oh I bet it does.

Wow really? Yeah we can all agree that she didn't deserve to be beaten when she was down,

I want you to remember this bit because you are going to say something that contradicts it really soon.

but she jumped behind the fucking counter, after slapping the guy, and is chasing him further into the store. So don't even give me that shit.

All of which has nothing to do with the point made here. The point being that she didn't deserve a savage beating and that most of those beatings took place when she was on the floor.
Both of which were true. She was incredibly wrong to slap him and chase him behind the counter but after that it was all on him.
Your point here is utterly irrelevant, it's true that she started it but that's not the point being debated.

My concern is that a cashier that may snap when pushed, has to deal with stupid fucking customers that are violent themselves. I believe that people have the right to try and pass counterfeit bills, but maybe they should not slap and chase someone that they do not know, and be violent when dealing with cashiers.

I agree that this is a problem and people shouldn't attack cashiers. That's something I'm certainly not trying to defend here. However the fact that these women initiated it doesn't make the point invalid, Mcdonald's should do better background checks on people they hire. This time it was reactionary to an attack but who knows if the next time something like this happens it isn't to totally innocent people?
Plus as another use said, of two bad things that happened his may have caused brain damage.

So she can slap another cashier when they do their job and say "hey, this bill is fake" ?

So she can return to her family and the people who love her, unharmed? People keep on talking about how 'Rayon Mcintosh was just trying to get his life back together' and 'what he did was in the past, let him try to redeem himself' and yet they frequently seem to think that this woman doesn't deserve the same chance.
I'm sorry but if you are willing to give a second chance to someone who shot and killed someone else (and wounded an eight year old boy in the process) then excuse me for thinking it's a little hypocritical to not think it's possible for the girl who slapped someone to do something similar.
Who knows? She could really turn her life around, become a saint even. Maybe she'll become a brilliant doctor or lawyer, maybe she'll become a proud humanitarian.
Everyone deserves a chance to fix up their lives and move on and learn from their mistakes, at least if the Rayon Mcintosh defenders are to be believed... but let me tell you they can't really do that if the following thing happens:

You know what, I fucking hope she has brain damage.

I'm very grateful my last meal was over four hours ago, because otherwise I probably would have thrown up all over my keyboard at reading this. I am literally, physically disgusted that you would stoop so low as to actually say that.
To effectively condone that level of violence and condemn a human being to a life of drooling, memory loss, inability to speak, loss of motor skills and a fuckload of other horrible things as well.
And over something that petty?
That goes beyond unjust punishment for the crime and the fact that people have an attitude like this is sickening. We live in the year 2011 and yet reading this thread one would think it was still the dark ages.

It will be a good example to other douchebag customers, that you don't be a douchebag.

And if Rayon Mcintosh gets thrown in jail for the rest of his life it'll be a good example to all the 'internet tough guys' that no matter how bitchy someone is to you and even if they started it, you aren't allowed to be excessively violent to them and if you try you won't get away with it.

Except if she has brain damage, than McIntosh is pretty much fucked, which will suck.

I'm going to para-phrase Yahtzee here with a line from his joke review of DNF:

"No it would not SUCK. If you get arrested for beating someone hard enough to give them brain damage then that does NOT SUCK, that is how the world should be!"

What would suck however is that Rayon's little girl would get to spend another five years without a father due to his own violent stupidity. It would also suck that the woman's family (who are completely innocent here) would have to go through the trauma and heartbreak of having a member of their family have brain damage.
And leaving a heart broken traumatised family in his wake is certainly no new thing to Mcintosh.

Listen I don't support these women at all, they were bitchy and unpleasant and awful. But from the sounds of things they have been charged with assault and criminal harrasment and breaking and entering. That sounds like a perfectly fair punishment.
Rayon Mcintosh should be charged and held accountable for beating them at least FIVE TIMES while they were on the ground and no longer a threat and causing severe damage in the process. I saw the video and it stopped being self defence after the 38 second mark. Both sides need to be punished by LAW for these actions and no, I don't think either side deserves permenant brain damage.

"Oh hey, I have a new message. Must be someone that quoted me in one of the threads I posted in last night... wtf? Someone responding to that? Weird. I thought that thread was done about a month ago. Oh well, lets see now..."

Yeah, parents always defend their kids until they get enough evidence to realize that their kids are in the wrong. Obviously her daughter didn't deserve the thrashing she got, but she messed with a person that she shouldn't have messed with. Shock and surprise she got it.

I didn't say that the thin metal bar still cannot be used to harm. I can beat my younger brother into submission with a pillow, anything can be used as a weapon. I just didn't want people to get the impression that he was beating her with a lead pipe.

You seem like one of those assholes that joins in a discussion without reading any of the past discussion (which is constantly being referred to) and over-analyzes the hell out of someone's post. Lets see if I am wrong.

Ok, tell me the point being debated. You seem to know everything about this situation, so please let me know what is going on since I obviously have no idea whats up.

Yeah, I didn't even really read the rest of your post. It came across as one of those preachy people who believe they are the pinnacle of morality, and think that it is their personal duty to deliver their moral authority to everyone they think is beneath them.
This thread died to me after no one responded to it for a week, so don't even bother responding. You'll just attack every single line of my post again and probably go after my opinions of douchebags that join in discussions late. That or some other straw-man that I can't even think of right now.

 

[Torrasque]

Oh good, I wanted to see what came of this.
Um. The link is broke.

Alright, after the link borked I went to the website and looked through it. That website has some serious bias on it. Like, a lot of bias. All in all too much violence on both sides of that counter. Bleh, now I feel bad.

Fixed the link, but it seems you found it yourself.
Nevermind then

 

[Torrasque]

First of all, if you have no idea what is going on, please read this <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.318155-McDonalds-incident?page=1>thread.
After reading that thread (or if you've already posted on it, and know what is up), read <url=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/woman-beat-pipe-mcdonald-cashier-faces-permanent-brain-damage-mother-claims-article-1.965932>this.

Now that you are up to speed, what do you think of the second article?
Have your feelings towards the women in the first topic, changed after reading this second topic?
Should background checks be more thorough?

Again, if you have not read the first thread, please watch the video and read through a couple pages of dialogue to get up to speed on what is going on. You are useless to the discussion if you have not read it.

Edit: fixed the second link

.. Surprised how many Users are happy with her getting brain damage. I think that would change if that was your friend/daughter/girlfriend who got the beating. May not be the best example but you can see relations make a huge difference in this situation.

The girl was not in the right to jump over and start problems- that was her fault. Now, to stop her is one thing but to constantly beat her with a metal rod which made her get hospitalized... no, that's wrong. I don't care if she acted stupid overall, you don't cheer for someone getting bashed like that for then we are no better.

Not saying that because I support in what her mom says, but I know two wrongs don't make a right. How would society work if someone does one bad thing, someone should do something back just as badly and we praise him/her.

Example: In Russia, a guy steals some woman's store. She beats him up, locks him in the back and rapes him for three days. Results? She has a fan page supporting in what she did, how she makes women proud and most agreeing the guy deserved it. But, if the genders were reversed... what then? So in this case, a guy beating her face up and almost killing her is supported by you guys on this Thread. See anything similar to the case? No.. maybe?

I won't judge anyone, but you have to think outside the box of your emotions sometimes. In most cases, you're emotions are in the right. However, sometimes it can mislead you to think one thing but if compared with another scenario... then it's a whole different story. I feel sad for the girl actually. No one deserves a back lash like that, of course jail is reasonable for what she did. That's justified in a sense though.

I think the brain damage is definitely excessive (hard to say "I'm sorry" when you can't think the words) but I think at the time when I said she deserves it, I was angry at how stupid the mother was. Whatever she did get though, she had coming to her. She incited the incident, so she has to deal with the consequences. It sucks that the consequences may be brain damage, but such is life.

Of course the situation would change if that was someone that matters to me, and not some random stranger. First off, I would have to be the kind of person that associates with people that jump over counters and chase cashiers into the back of their store (which I am not). Second, I would probably be looking for vengeance since someone I care about just got savagely beaten, I would be blinded by rage and not care about the facts. But yeah, like you said, its not the best example, it just changes the context of the situation.

No I don't see anything similar to the case. I support the guy more than the girl, because he reacted instead of taking the action. If the genders were reversed, I would probably be more supportive of the female cashier since two guys are likely to be more of a threat to the one girl than the two girls are in this case, are a threat to the single guy. I understand that changing the genders of the parties involved, seems to radically change the responses (like your example), but I try to be as cold and rational as I can be.
I remember when I heard about the thief getting raped, there was a thread here saying that if the roles were reversed, the public would be "WTF THAT GUY RAPED A GIRL FOR 3 DAYS?!?!?! OH MY GOD!" which is exactly what would happen. Man takes down girl, "YOU ARE MESSED UP!". Girl takes down guy, "YOU GO GIRL!".
Another example relevant to that, is this story (a year ago? a while ago? can't recall) where this woman chopped off her husband's dick and threw it in the garbage disposal. She got off scott free cuz she said her husband beats her. What made this all worse, is this show where women all talk about stuff, talked about this case, and were all cheering on the woman. WTF-ery aside, if the genders were reversed, and the guy chopped off his woman's breasts (or something), said his wife abused him, the guy would be in jail for a very very long time.
I think society will always think men are stronger and more violent than women, which is really really unfortunate.

Also (said this in many posts), I think the guy over-reacted, and should still be punished for his actions.
Just thought that should be added in case you think I think the guy should get off scott free.

 

[Fiend13]

First of all, if you have no idea what is going on, please read this <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.318155-McDonalds-incident?page=1>thread.
After reading that thread (or if you've already posted on it, and know what is up), read <url=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/woman-beat-pipe-mcdonald-cashier-faces-permanent-brain-damage-mother-claims-article-1.965932>this.

Now that you are up to speed, what do you think of the second article?
Have your feelings towards the women in the first topic, changed after reading this second topic?
Should background checks be more thorough?

Again, if you have not read the first thread, please watch the video and read through a couple pages of dialogue to get up to speed on what is going on. You are useless to the discussion if you have not read it.

Edit: fixed the second link

First of all this sermon of hate speech over several pages can hardly be called a discussion.
Also your tone is rather insulting but I am going to assume it's lack of rhetorical ability rather than ill will.

I don't see how the second article would change anything (it even confirms my opinion that journalism like the Daily Mail publishes it is a major reason there won't be any cultural development in the foreseeable future).
If there is a confirmed diagnosis of major brain damage prosecution might think about adding attempted homicide to the charges against the former employee.

Whether or not society should attempt to resocialize criminals is a very difficult discussion and there certainly is no objectively right answer. What it comes down to is the question of which we value more between freedom (read as the chance to make up for grave mistakes) and safety (a guaranteed lifestyle when acting within the current social norms).
Personally I believe anyone deserves another chance to prove themselves (the reasoning would take up several pages so I won't mention it here).

As resocialization is currently accepted I cannot think of a way the former employer would be to blame here other than leaving iron pipes lying around.

 

[Torrasque]

First of all, if you have no idea what is going on, please read this <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.318155-McDonalds-incident?page=1>thread.
After reading that thread (or if you've already posted on it, and know what is up), read <url=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/woman-beat-pipe-mcdonald-cashier-faces-permanent-brain-damage-mother-claims-article-1.965932>this.

Now that you are up to speed, what do you think of the second article?
Have your feelings towards the women in the first topic, changed after reading this second topic?
Should background checks be more thorough?

Again, if you have not read the first thread, please watch the video and read through a couple pages of dialogue to get up to speed on what is going on. You are useless to the discussion if you have not read it.

Edit: fixed the second link

First of all this sermon of hate speech over several pages can hardly be called a discussion.
Also your tone is rather insulting but I am going to assume it's lack of rhetorical ability rather than ill will.

I don't see how the second article would change anything (it even confirms my opinion that journalism like the Daily Mail publishes it is a major reason there won't be any cultural development in the foreseeable future).
If there is a confirmed diagnosis of major brain damage prosecution might think about adding attempted homicide to the charges against the former employee.

Whether or not society should attempt to resocialize criminals is a very difficult discussion and there certainly is no objectively right answer. What it comes down to is the question of which we value more between freedom (read as the chance to make up for grave mistakes) and safety (a guaranteed lifestyle when acting within the current social norms).
Personally I believe anyone deserves another chance to prove themselves (the reasoning would take up several pages so I won't mention it here).

As resocialization is currently accepted I cannot think of a way the former employer would be to blame here other than leaving iron pipes lying around.

Sorry if you didn't like my tone, but I hate people that join a discussion without knowing any of the previous discussion relating to that topic, because they tend to state opinions that are dealt with already.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

the mother is worried about background checks?
somehow i think that they knew he was a convicted criminal. in fact, i think thats WHY he was working in McDonalds. the thing is, if you can't be hired ANYWHERE, even a fast food chain, because you committed a crime then what you get is a group of people who cant get a job because they screwed up. these people spend years with hardened criminals, and are now pissed off at the people who arent giving them jobs. if we all agreed with the mother and nobody hired ex-cons, then the crime rate would increase massively because the criminals would need to steal money.

and anyway, the victim attacked first. if somebody broke into most people's houses, then the owner would possibly shoot/stab the burglar and wouldnt be arrested for murder, because it would be justified by self-defense.
so all i can tell is the only way to justify attacking someone in self defense is if you actually kill the person.
lovely legal system we got here.

actually in Texas, you would not be charged if you shot a burglar.

 

[Baron von Blitztank]

Yeah, I'm gonna call a bullshit on the brain damage thing. Also, she started to steal money from the till so I think she well deserves a few whacks to the head, or five.