ME3 and judging games before release

[IBlackKiteI]

Lately it would seem there's been a bizarre amount of hate for things which haven't even been released yet.
I remember many seeing Brink as a Team Fortress 2 clone, or another 'CoD-clone' even before it was released for instance. The same thing with Crysis 2 earlier in the year, also having the misfortune of being labelled as a CoD-clone. Modern Warfare 3, obviously part of the series which made the who CoD clone thing is nonetheless also being negatively judged before its even come out.

One of the most judged unreleased games at the moment seems to be Mass Effect 3, which is primarily what I want to focus on in this thread.
Mass Effect is a series I've personally so far enjoyed, though I do feel has quite a few shortcomings and whatnot, but thats the not the point. The point is that many seem to believe that the game is going to fail, despite the fact its not even finished and therefore they haven't even played it.
Yeah, it may suck or it may not. Its just so strange how some seem to automatically assume that, upon seeing the headline which tells of Mass Effect 3 being pulled back so it can be made to essentially 'cater to a wider audience' that Mass Effect 3 will be a bad game.
This isn't the only little snippet of info that players have based their views on though.
But how exactly can one definitively and fully believe or assume something about the finished product before its even released based on small amounts of info?

I'm not saying that unreleased games should get...judgemental immunity or something, I'm just saying it would be best if people withheld their ultimate judgements until the game is released and they have played it. THEN you can judge the hell out of it.
Because all the bitching for no reason based on what is pretty much nothing, does it really help anyone?

And also, I don't recall Dragon Age 2 getting much hate before it came out. Players seemed to think it would be just like the Dragon Age they already knew and love. But when it came out, opinions were quite obviously...iffy.
Food for thought I guess.

Anyway, for discussion value, to what extent do you think a game can or should be judged before release? Or what do you personally, currently think Mass Effect 3 will turn out to be like at this stage?

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

It is inevitable that games will be judged before release. It is a publisher/developer's job to make it look and sound as appealing as possible. ME3 reports have been all over the place, people judge. I don't see why people are getting so upset about other people getting upset.

EDIT: That and speculation is oh so tasty.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

I reserve judgement of a game until I read previews or actually get my hands on the game itself.

This reminds me of a similar thread talking about people who seem to hate every game released... I'd rather enjoy the game for what's good about it than bash it at every turn during development and the post about how right I was and how game companies should cater to me and only me on release.

 

[Sieggy]

They took what interesting aspect we love from ME1 and 2 out from the game, so why should we like it?

-Instead of exciting space exploration, now it's boring Earth.
-Took out, 'useless' skill point system. Forcing you to play through the damn game again to get a new set of skills.
-Took out new romances, nope, no new romance for ME3.
-Probably tard the plot up to gain more audience.

One positive thing through, there's probably no more stuff mining.

 

[loodmoney]

One situation in which it makes sense for a game to be judged in such a way: a game that is a sequel to other games, and is expected to be roughly similar to those games in relevant ways. If a game is a piece of shit, and a sequel is announced promising more of the same shit, then we might be happy to consider it a piece of shit. In the same way, if a game is good, and the sequel is planned to change in some way, then we might criticise it for departing from what is good about the previous games.

With regard to Mass Effect 3, the latter seems to be the case. Also, from what I understand, there is talk of it being 'consolified' compared to the previous games. So I think ME3 could be used as departure point for talking about this sort of trend--legitimately--despite it's not being released.

 

[DeepComet5581]

They took what interesting aspect we love from ME1 and 2 out from the game, so why should we like it?

-Instead of exciting space exploration, now it's boring Earth.
-Took out, 'useless' skill point system. Forcing you to play through the damn game again to get a new set of skills.
-Took out new romances, nope, no new romance for ME3.
-Probably tard the plot up to gain more audience.

One positive thing through, there's probably no more stuff mining.

Allow me to alleviate those fears...

1. Yes, you visit Earth, but a few times for missions. You also get to visit the Homeworlds of most other races. Also, from the Mass Effect wiki: "Vehicle-based exploration will be closer to Mass Effect 2, where it didn't form part of the critical path. Casey Hudson had previously indicated that the vehicle exploration segment of the Mass Effect 2 DLC pack Overlord was an attempt at addressing issues players had with the exploration segments in the original Mass Effect, and lessons learned from its implementation could be used to implement similar segments in Mass Effect 3.

Cristina Norman has noted that "nobody liked" the mining mechanic in Mass Effect 2 and Casey Hudson has stated that the mining part of the game will be changed, but the notion of exploring the galaxy in a non-linear fashion will be preserved."

2. You had to start from scratch skill-wise in the second one, to my memory.

3. Er... yes [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.284323-Its-Old-Flames-Only-in-Mass-Effect-3-Says-BioWare-UPDATED].

4. How do you know? Let the game come out first, which was the point of the thread.

 

[IBlackKiteI]

Yeah..... That's not called judging



That's what's known as "speculating"

speculating-present participle of spec·u·late (Verb)
1. Form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

People tend not to judge things "without firm evidence".


That would be fucking stupid....

I'm not sure if your kidding or something but some people do. You've seen it before, "This game looks like CoD so its gunna suck!"
"They've taken out character x so its gunna suck!" "Its gunna suck 'cos its being 'dumbed down for consoles'!"

That sort of thing may not entirely be judging, but it sure as hell isn't speculation.

 

[Gennadios]

There was quite a bit of murmuring that DAII was a butchering or dumbing down of the traditional western RPG. People just weren't expecting how stripped down and rushed the experience was.

For the record I'm perfectly excited about ME3, but I've honestly come to accept it as a really good shooter series, not as an RPG, which some people might still be expecting.

 

[legendp]

I do not judge them before release however I will stick to certain genres (I usually watch several different reviews before buying a game) however with a track record of the first two mass effect game's I have higher than normal expectations. I am looking forward to mass effect 3, I would rather the mass effect 2 combat system but as long as the story, aesthetics, environment and soundtrack is as amazing and incredible as mass effect 2 it is a must buy, unless the reviews say it is terrible I will Get it.

but I try to have the same expectations for all game's and movies so I am not let down and so I am pleasantly surprised when they are very good.

 

[Hertzila]

It's pattern recognition and a bit of pessimism, simply put. Other games and their developers have used certain key phrases like 'catering a wider audience' and the resulting game's quality have been observed (by some) to suffer and this has happened numerous times, so when ME3 devs said that key phrase, they basically set off an imaginary trip wire. Cue the gamer 'ME3 ruined' reaction.

I think it might also have something to do with a belief that whenever something gets a more prominent status (like in ME3's shooter aspects), the other parts of the game suffer for a lack of attention. While partly true, who's to say they couldn't get some more resources or time to make all parts of the game good.

In ME3's specific case, the possibility of Earth-centric game in contrast to flying all over the galaxy might worsen things too.

 

[darth.pixie]

Well you sort of have to judge a game before playing it...I mean, you have to buy it first and I consider them to be expensive enough so as to not just get something without proper information on it. And it's not all that much speculating considering the data that Bioware releases. It's mostly interpretation or simple knowledge.

And Dragon Age 2 got plenty of hate both before and after.

 

[Gaiseric]

As the other guy said it just speculation. I think that ME2 had problems being too streamlined(I didn't play ME1 so I'm going by what others say) and I'm nervous about ME3 because it sounded like they were going to go farther with it. When I get an RPG I want an RPG not a 3rd person shooter with a conversation system(which is what ME2 felt like to me).

As for Modern Warfare 3, well I didn't get any CoD after Modern Warfare. Their campaigns are too short for me and Modern Warfare 2's plot just seemed wacky and over the top based on previews/reviews/friends telling me stuff.

edit: I feel the need to speculate to an extent so I can make plans on whether or not I'll pick up a game at launch or used down the road.

 

[Conza]

Anyway, for discussion value, to what extent do you think a game can or should be judged before release? Or what do you personally, currently think Mass Effect 3 will turn out to be like at this stage?

Good question!

Personally, I rate Mass Effect at about 9.7-9.9 and Mass Effect 2 at 8.9-9.2 . Both excellent games, but the second detracted in some areas were very strong in the first, eg. RPG elements, menues, story, characters, suppression of some classes, there was just a general suppression in Mass Effect 2 (which is made up for with its own additions to the game).

My greatest fear with Mass Effect 3 is that it won't live up to anyones expectations, and oh boy, does it have plenty of expectations to live up to. To be even close to perfect, it has to find the balancing between Mass Effect 1 and 2, regarding general gameplay (bad mako journeys, and horrendous planet scanning), rpg-to-shooter ratio, not to mention continue and finalise the epic story (that got seriously side-tracked in Mass Effect 2), Awe us in terms of graphics, gui, weapons, characters, and somehow get this all done within the space of onlly a few more months (well 9 anyway), and this, at a point where they are openly discussing major changes to the plot and game structure when they should just get to work, not necessarily hurry up since we want a quality product, but just get the product released without unwarranted delay! *cough* multiplayer *cough*

So, while hating Mass Effect 3 before it even comes out is ridiculous, speculatory and fearful comments are certainly justified, very very 'very' well justified.

 

[manythings]

-Instead of exciting space exploration, now it's boring Earth.
-Took out, 'useless' skill point system. Forcing you to play through the damn game again to get a new set of skills.
-Took out new romances, nope, no new romance for ME3.
-Probably tard the plot up to gain more audience.

It's not just earth and surely Earth of the Future would be kind of interesting.
I don't remember any statement about taking out the entire skill system.
You're a little busy with that whole Reaper invasion to worry about banging someone.
So... without knowing anything you've decided in advance what the plot has to be?

OT: People will just judge. I'll actually wait until I have something to look at rather than snippets of snippets of marketting approved comments. This thread is probably about to become all about gayness in DA2 as it is.

 

[Anjel]

All I know is Battlefield 7 is going to suck big time!

Seriously though, it's fine for people to say "I don't like how this sounds" or "that screenshot didn't really show off the game that well" - just opinions. People who take it to the extreme and say "I'll never buy another X company game ever again because X character is not in their latest release" are idiots... but idiots entitled to their opinion.

 

[MBergman]

Yeah..... That's not called judging



That's what's known as "speculating"

speculating-present participle of spec·u·late (Verb)
1. Form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

People tend not to judge things "without firm evidence".


That would be fucking stupid....

I'm not sure if your kidding or something but some people do. You've seen it before, "This game looks like CoD so its gunna suck!"
"They've taken out character x so its gunna suck!" "Its gunna suck 'cos its being 'dumbed down for consoles'!"

That sort of thing may not entirely be judging, but it sure as hell isn't speculation.

Yeah that's speculation. There have insufficent evidence to make a full judgement. They can call it a final judgement as much as they want. But without the appropriate evidence, it is merely speculation.

Even if you choose to call it speculation, it's not what they are doing. Speculation is indeed a theory of how something might turn out. But if someone decides that this game WILL suck without really knowing, that's judging.

 

[Canadish]

The problem with what the OP is saying is that, as customers, we can't just wait for the game to come out and play it.
Or rather, we shouldn't.

As soon as we've payed for the game, the sale of the game goes down on record, and EA has our money.
Now, if alot of us buy it, and the marketed features were about "Awesome-button connections" or how the franchise has been "Streamlined for a wider audience", the EA marketing team will use that sales data in future to force both Bioware and other developers under EA's wing to also apply these changes, because the data shows that these changes and features bring financial success.

Now, I agree that ideally, we as customers shouldn't make a snap judgment and instead wait for reviews. That is the point of reviews after all, someone who has sampled the product in full and can give a fair and unbiased opinion on what they thought. Right?
No. Sadly, its pretty common knowledge about the relationship between publishers and reviewing magazines/websites. Beyond just outright bribes, the publishers have these outlets by the balls (if you'll allow the use of the blunt term). See, the news outlets get their information from publishers during a games marketing hype. But they don't have to give that information/interviews to them. And if a game news outlet doesn't have these, readers have less reason to buy their magazines/visit their website.
So these will often lead to a common agreement between the two companies. It varies but...
"You give this game a 8/10 or above, and we'll make sure you get the first exclusive interview and screen shots of our big game next year."
This is said to be behind the "4 point review scale" issue
The most famous and public case of one of these deals gone bad is Jeff Gerstmann removal from GameSpot for refusing to lie about Kane and Lynch being a rubbish game.

So, we as customers can't take any major reviews without a grain of salt, or at least cross referencing them with public/customer reviews as well.
We are essentially forced to try and judge a game before its out because reviews cannot be trusted, so the best way to get a feel for the game, without buying it (which means the publisher has already won, if its a bad game) is to try see past all the bullshit marketing double speak.

Alot of snap judgment was made over Dragon Age 2, after Mass Effect 2 was streamlined, with concern whether the same would happen to Dragon Age.
Turns out, we were correct in our assessment of EA's marketing spin, and the game was dumbed down, rushed and poor in quality overall.
And so, Mass Effect 3 is in an even worse position then Dragon Age 2.
EA and Bioware are using the same language as they used on the last two games (streamlined and dumbed down respectively) and so alarm bells are ringing. And with good reason, this has happened twice before and it got worse the second time.


I know developers work hard. I think everyone here does, we're all fairly savvy on how many hours those brave souls put into the development of our beloved games.
We don't bash on their games early because its "the cool thing to do". It's genuine concern as a customer. We love Bioware and don't want them to flush their hard won integrity down the bog for some quick short term profits.