ME3 End: Do you agree with the Reapers?

[SajuukKhar]

Well, not many times in human history has their been a fleet of emotionless machines hovering above our heads with laser beams of death and robo-zombies ready to give us shoulder massages of death to back up the idea that we should listen to the smart people. If they're willing to kill us, and let that be known, most of us would fall in line. Granted, civil rights would be stamped on a bit, but still better than annihilation.

Even if the government slapped tracking collars on every person in America people would STILL try to commit crimes.

It doesn't matter what you do, save for complete and total mind control, people WILL do what they want, and if anything the more you try to stop them from doing something the more likely they are to do it.

It is why statistically people are more likely to press a button that says do not press then a button with nothing on it.

You have an overly optimistic view on humanity that is not supported by history.

 

[silver wolf009]

Well, not many times in human history has their been a fleet of emotionless machines hovering above our heads with laser beams of death and robo-zombies ready to give us shoulder massages of death to back up the idea that we should listen to the smart people. If they're willing to kill us, and let that be known, most of us would fall in line. Granted, civil rights would be stamped on a bit, but still better than annihilation.

Even if the government slapped tracking collars on every person in America people would STILL try to commit crimes.

It doesn't matter what you do, save for complete and total mind control, people WILL do what they want, and if anything the more you try to stop them from doing something the more likely they are to do it.

It is why statistically people are more likely to press a button that says do not press then a button with nothing on it.

Well, tracking collars and the knowledge that making a bad example will result in a species that is endlessly your greater getting another reason to kill you are a bit different. Criminals, with the exception of those who have psychological issues, commit crimes assuming that the potential reward is worth the potential risk. A severe drop off in crime would be committed if criminals everywhere knew they couldn't escape judgement, and judgement would bring death. That'd be the situation humanity would be in at this hypothetical point.

As for your argument about it being human nature to resist and do stupid things, if we assume we can't be bettered, we have to remember we're not alone in the universe. Does Asari history indicate they will always be warring? Turian? Salarain? Did the Protheans or the Keepers really not have it in them to stop?

Actually, I see a bit of a parallel to religion. We don't know that God exists right now. We have no conclusive proof. People sin daily. People don't know God exists, therefore they don't know if they'll be punished for their sins. If today, God descended on a holy cloud, and made it clear that we're doing something wrong, I'd be willing to be a good sum of money things that are considered sins would have a sudden and sharp drop off in the number of people committing them, if not an entire ceasing all together. Maybe that's inviting in toes to be stepped on, but if the Reapers made it clear that they're willing, able, and ready to kill us if we continue down a path, that path will not be traveled on much anymore.

Perhaps the 85, 10, 5 percent theory does apply. For every rule, it's said that 85% will follow it without question, 5% will break it without question, and 10% will observe the 5% who are breaking it to see if they're being punished, and will act depending on what they see. Even if the Reapers couldn't stamp out every last act they didn't like seeing, it's still a better alternative than killing everything, and 85%-95% of the population is complying with their mandates.

 

[Savagezion]

Not if they stuck around to "police" in the same manner they are doing now just not going away so things can get bad. Organics would see a reaper and be like "There goes the guys that will kill any evil robots we make" and thus wouldn't make any evil robots. They would be a deterrent. There would be an understanding between the two. Organics would even fight along side the reapers against evil robots, they wouldn't have to do it all themselves. It hasn't been established exactly how reaper technology works other than "roughly synthesis" (according to reapers) and we can't say one way or another if we could provide some sort of alternative energy source for them.

This assumes organics are not tracking resources and are just consuming them without forethought. Organics have even in our primitive time of today set population limits because of dangers such as this. Some people's jobs are to just examine things like this. You would have even more people doing it with higher population levels.

No amount of policing, beyond total mind control, would ever prevent people from making AI.

Human history has shown that when told not to do something humans are more likely to do it then if they were not told anything. Making something "illegal" only increases the rate at which people do it because organics are habitually inclined to do tings that are against their own interest because we hate being told what to do.

Beyond that knowing that there is a giant armada of stupidly powerful machines hovering around that will kill other machines also makes organics more likely to take the dangerous path of making AI because they believe the ever vigilant overseer will ALWAYS be able to take care of the problem. Which statistically they are bound to fail eventually.
.
.
Some places have methods in place yes but overall humans don't actually monitor jack, and don't care about what the consequences of our actions our because we care more about ourselves then possible future people.

For all the warnings of global ruin, that mining X or burning Y will lead to disastrous Z, the vast majority of humans continue to this very day to do those things. Even at this very moment we are over-mining, over deforesting, over burning fossil fuels towards our own extinction.

The problem with that mentality is that the reapers never establish what they see as AI. AI is nothing more than a programed set of algorithms to solve problems based on variables. A digital alarm clock could be viewed as AI and the reapers would be destroying organic life in the galaxy so they wont make digital alarm clocks. When exactly is the line crossed? The Geth are above that but when exactly does it "count"? The reapers never say this so to say it is "inevitable" that synthetics will turn on organics is a bit of a misnomer. What is "inevitable" is that if they are not stopped, they will be back in 50,000 years to wipe out advanced civilizations based on a presumption. Organics have never been completely wiped out due to synthetics so there is no proof that they would be. Otherwise, the reapers would have no function. Actually, the lore in the game suggests there is a way for organics and sentient synthetics to exist peacefully. There is nothing that backs up their "self-fulfilling prophecies" other than to take them on their word. But even by their own admission, this has never happened. (They take full credit)

I don't want to debate humanity's resource consumption morality, there is more to it than that though. Humanity doesn't consume like that, cooperate entities do. What is in the best interest of humanity isn't what is in the best interest for business. Limited natural resources generate money which generates power which generates greed. These things are why sometimes warnings go ignored. The people monitoring this have no power. The people who control consumption of this do.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Regarding point 4, the Catalyst says TO YOUR FACE that he cannot enact change without outside assistance. This is the argument that makes no sense to me, as it is explained pretty clearly in-game, yet people still ask about it. The Catalyst could only go through the cycle, until the Crucible was completed and attached to the Citadel, which opened new parameters in his programming, and allowed for new possibilities.

Yes I know what he said. It doesn't make any sense. The concept of hundreds of civilizations combining their technology to form a giant USB stick that somehow interfaces with the Citadel so it can produce space magic is deeply stupid. Either it's Reaper tech and they should've been able to make one themselves, or it's some extraordinarily goofy nonsense.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'm going to go with extraordinary goofy nonsense, because, let's face it, it is. Still not sure why you asked about it if you knew that, as the person you're talking to certainly isn't privy to the wonky imaginings of Bioware writers.

Isn't that what we're trying to accomplish in this thread? Make sense of this rubbish?

(looks at thread title)

Okay I guess not but STILL.

 

[SajuukKhar]

[
Well, tracking collars and the knowledge that making a bad example will result in a species that is endlessly your greater getting another reason to kill you are a bit different. Criminals, with the exception of those who have psychological issues, commit crimes assuming that the potential reward is worth the potential risk. A severe drop off in crime would be committed if criminals everywhere knew they couldn't escape judgement, and judgement would bring death. That'd be the situation humanity would be in at this hypothetical point.

As for your argument about it being human nature to resist and do stupid things, if we assume we can't be bettered, we have to remember we're not alone in the universe. Does Asari history indicate they will always be warring? Turian? Salarain? Did the Protheans or the Keepers really not have it in them to stop?

Actually, I see a bit of a parallel to religion. We don't know that God exists right now. We have no conclusive proof. People sin daily. People don't know God exists, therefore they don't know if they'll be punished for their sins. If today, God descended on a holy cloud, and made it clear that we're doing something wrong, I'd be willing to be a good sum of money things that are considered sins would have a sudden and sharp drop off in the number of people committing them, if not an entire ceasing all together. Maybe that's inviting in toes to be stepped on, but if the Reapers made it clear that they're willing, able, and ready to kill us if we continue down a path, that path will not be traveled on much anymore.

Perhaps the 85, 10, 5 percent theory does apply. For every rule, it's said that 85% will follow it without question, 5% will break it without question, and 10% will observe the 5% who are breaking it to see if they're being punished, and will act depending on what they see. Even if the Reapers couldn't stamp out every last act they didn't like seeing, it's still a better alternative than killing everything, and 85%-95% of the population is complying with their mandates.

That the problem though, criminals commit crimes because they think they can get away from it, even with the most advanced tracking devices on earth people would still try to get around them. It is in our blood, our very nature, to try to get around what we are told are out limits even if we realistically can't.

The threat of a race of giant sentient machines watching our every move, which not even The Reapers could pull off and everyone would know they couldn't, would if anything increase the chances of people trying to make AI in a act of rebellion.
.
.
As I pointed out previously in the thread all of the "alien" races in Me are just human character traits and or social,political, economic etc etc. systems personified. All of the ME alien races suffer from the same flaws we are because everything they are based off of is something human. A TRUE alien race might not have the limits we do, but the races in the ME universe do because they are only fragments of humanity expanded.
.
.
If god came down and said "yeah I'm here do the stuff I say or burn in hell", there would be tons of skeptics and tons of people who would purposefully do the opposite of what he said.

Furthermore the Reapers are not gods, they don't have his ability to watch over every world and people would know that, giving even more reason to try because unlike god the Reapers are not infallible and all knowing.

 

[silver wolf009]

[
Well, tracking collars and the knowledge that making a bad example will result in a species that is endlessly your greater getting another reason to kill you are a bit different. Criminals, with the exception of those who have psychological issues, commit crimes assuming that the potential reward is worth the potential risk. A severe drop off in crime would be committed if criminals everywhere knew they couldn't escape judgement, and judgement would bring death. That'd be the situation humanity would be in at this hypothetical point.

As for your argument about it being human nature to resist and do stupid things, if we assume we can't be bettered, we have to remember we're not alone in the universe. Does Asari history indicate they will always be warring? Turian? Salarain? Did the Protheans or the Keepers really not have it in them to stop?

Actually, I see a bit of a parallel to religion. We don't know that God exists right now. We have no conclusive proof. People sin daily. People don't know God exists, therefore they don't know if they'll be punished for their sins. If today, God descended on a holy cloud, and made it clear that we're doing something wrong, I'd be willing to be a good sum of money things that are considered sins would have a sudden and sharp drop off in the number of people committing them, if not an entire ceasing all together. Maybe that's inviting in toes to be stepped on, but if the Reapers made it clear that they're willing, able, and ready to kill us if we continue down a path, that path will not be traveled on much anymore.

Perhaps the 85, 10, 5 percent theory does apply. For every rule, it's said that 85% will follow it without question, 5% will break it without question, and 10% will observe the 5% who are breaking it to see if they're being punished, and will act depending on what they see. Even if the Reapers couldn't stamp out every last act they didn't like seeing, it's still a better alternative than killing everything, and 85%-95% of the population is complying with their mandates.

That the problem though, criminals commit crimes because they think they can get away from it, even with the most advanced tracking evinced on earth people would still try to get around them. It is in our blood, our very nature, to try to get around what we are told are out limits even if we realistically can't.

The threat of a race of giant sentient machines watching our every move, which not even The Reapers could pull off and everyone would know they couldn't, would if anything increase the chances of people trying to make AI in a act of rebellion.
.
.
As I pointed out previously in the thread all of the "alien" races in Me are just human character traits and or social,political, economic etc etc. systems personified. All of the ME alien races suffer from the same flaws we are because everything they are based off of is something human. A TRUE alien race might not have the limits we do, but the races in the ME universe do.
.
.
If god came down and said "yeah I'm here do the stuff I say or burn in hell", there would be tons of skeptics and tons of people who would purposefully do the opposite of what he said.

Furthermore the Reapers are not gods, they don't have his ability to watch over every world and people would know that, giving even more reason to try because unlike god the Reapers are not infallible and all knowing.

So because you so thoroughly believe in the imperfection of humanity, that you'd rather have them not even spare a thought to preservation? The Reapers came into things hoping to just kill everything. They never even spared a thought to the possibility that there might be some worth saving? There's nobody who should be allowed to flee Sodom?

You said it yourself, the Reapers aren't infallible, so is there not a chance to believe they're wrong with the whole, "Nothing's worth saving, so all must be destroyed."

Your allusions to history can be countered by the fact that humanity has never been in this situation before. Our reaction in a trial like this has yet to be tested.

And if anybody, even God came down, and told people to do things, there would be skeptics. Until of course, he proves that he's GOD. He could casually shatter the laws of reality, make a new life form, unmake the earth and remake it before humanity's eyes. The Reapers just have to show they're on top, and they'd be in a position to be overseers, not murders.

The Reapers could give the civilizations of the galaxy a chance, not just take the easy way out and assume that all's lost, and they're all heartless monsters doomed to destroy themselves. They don't even try that, they run in, guns blazing, self assured attitudes turned up to eleven.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Your argument seems to be similar to Dr. Wallace Breen's in Half-Life 2.

A force stronger then us told us to do something so we should do it. Who cares that it basically turns existence into a dictatorial enslavement based existence?

People would rather die free then live as slaves in paradise. In fact this very point was made in a early star trek episode.

That is why the Reapers see extinction as the only choice because anyone with half an understanding of organic existence would know that humans cannot be told what to do even if it is from a force thousands of times stronger then they are and even if it is in their own best interest.

Star Trek, at least one episode, Gurren Lagann, Mass Effect, Half-Life 2 are all games focused on this very issue.

Organic life is irrational and will fight against anything that tires to limit them even if it is for their betterment. We would rather die by our own hands then live under the thumb of another.

 

[skywolfblue]

I have a couple of questions for you.

1. You've stated that it wouldn't be reasonable/possible for the Reapers to keep a lid on aggressive synthetic life due to the ever shorter timespan in which said synthetic life could potentially be created. However, I'm not sure why there was a rule that the Reapers had to sit in dark space for 50,000 years. Why couldn't they just hang around, nagging us about synthetics and putting a quick stop to any really unfortunate ones? I think tens of thousands of years of stewardship by godlike machines who persistently warn us about the devilry of synthetic life might be more compelling than you think. I must also say, this argument that "humans never learn from the mistakes of history" is anthropological gobbledygook and there is zero evidence to support that it is true. It's the kind of highly emotional, logically absurd statement an ORGANIC would make.

2. I don't understand Reaper logic regarding the singularity in which synthetic life wipes out all organic life as an inevitability, because it has never happened. There has been zero incidences of this happening, ever. Why would a purely logical machine that functions on observations/facts start leaping to conclusions? They're the most advanced synthetic in the galaxy, and they seem rather pro organic...in their way. Why couldn't the singularity just lead to another batch of pro-organic synthetics? The Geth and EDI already show promise, regardless of the small sample size regarding their existence. If anything the behavior of the Reapers seems highly alarmist.

3. Why wouldn't Harbinger/Sovereign explain all of this? Why be mysterious and threatening? Why claim their motivations are beyond understanding? The Catalyst Kid goes on to explain their motivations in about 2 minutes of conversation, and Shepard says "Oh alright then" and starts flipping switches. Clearly this was meant to be a profoundly convincing argument, easily delivered and easily understood and accepted.

4. If the option to perform space magic and turn everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid was there from the outset, why on earth mess around with the cycle/harvesting? Why not just do your space magic? Problem solved, with 100% less murder and effort.

1. I'll deal with that below.

2. There are plenty of malevolent AIs in the very short time frame of Mass Effect. Geth and EDI are pretty much the only temporary exceptions. And keep in mind that the whole 50,000 years is less then a heartbeat to the timespan of the reapers, they have seen this cycle happen before over and over again.

3. It wasn't until the catalyst was finished and hooked up to the citadel that the other solutions presented themselves. Harbinger/Sovereign didn't feel the need to explain it, because to them, Shepard was a worthless finite being. The catalyst on the other hand saw Shepard as the only organic around at the time the crucible was hooked up, so Shepard was the one best suited to make the choice, so the catalyst gave some basic info to help shepard make that choice.

4. If the option to perform space magic and turn everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid was there from the outset, why on earth mess around with the cycle/harvesting? Why not just do your space magic? Problem solved, with 100% less murder and effort.

All of your questions are easily answerable and have been answered multiple times, but because the last one is easiest to explain I'll do that one:

The synthesis option isn't always available. It only comes with enough war assets and the Crucible.

I think you're missing the point, which I think is a really good one.
If all you have to do to end the cycle is build the crucible, throw an organic in there, and then have synthetics and organics united in beautiful harmony, why didn't the Reapers do that in the very beginning to save all this fuss of eradicating advanced organics every 50,000 years?

4. As was mentioned it was built over the course of a thousand cycles, and the options presented by the crucible are a little alien to the reaper way of thought. That's why the catalyst said he would not make the choice himself, instead letting Shepard do it.

Alright, something just occurred to me, so I'll ask you guys, as you seem like the likeliest candidates to at least try and make sense of this.

So you're the Reapers. You're an advanced form of Synthetic, or Synthetic/Organic hybrid life. you've decided on this Cycle theory, and you set about laying out the Mass Relays and Citadel as elaborate honey traps so you can direct the growth of organic life to make things easier for yourself when it's harvesting time.

Why on earth would you not prepare them? Indoctrinate them, in a way? You're clearly familiar with the concept. Why not instill in them the idea, the religion, that every 50,000 years they're going to "ascend" or something? Why not make it positive? Why not present yourself as a friend? As a god? As a benevolent force? A protector?

Furthermore, why not make it painless? Why not make yourself appear noble? Why create the most menacing looking vessels imaginable, and then crash around exploding everything with giant lasers, while sending monstrosities bursting through doors to violently savage people? Are you not just maximizing hostility and resistance and making your job unnecessarily difficult, not to mention extraordinarily traumatic for the species you are ostensibly working to protect?

As SajuukKhar has been saying, organic life is by nature brought up to resist those in authority.

Actually, I see a bit of a parallel to religion. We don't know that God exists right now. We have no conclusive proof. People sin daily. People don't know God exists, therefore they don't know if they'll be punished for their sins. If today, God descended on a holy cloud, and made it clear that we're doing something wrong, I'd be willing to be a good sum of money things that are considered sins would have a sudden and sharp drop off in the number of people committing them, if not an entire ceasing all together. Maybe that's inviting in toes to be stepped on, but if the Reapers made it clear that they're willing, able, and ready to kill us if we continue down a path, that path will not be traveled on much anymore.

Perhaps the 85, 10, 5 percent theory does apply. For every rule, it's said that 85% will follow it without question, 5% will break it without question, and 10% will observe the 5% who are breaking it to see if they're being punished, and will act depending on what they see. Even if the Reapers couldn't stamp out every last act they didn't like seeing, it's still a better alternative than killing everything, and 85%-95% of the population is complying with their mandates.

Have you read the bible? God shows up time and time again, performs miracles right in front of people, and they still stubbornly refuse. Signs and wonders don't fix people's hearts.

 

[silver wolf009]

I have a couple of questions for you.

1. You've stated that it wouldn't be reasonable/possible for the Reapers to keep a lid on aggressive synthetic life due to the ever shorter timespan in which said synthetic life could potentially be created. However, I'm not sure why there was a rule that the Reapers had to sit in dark space for 50,000 years. Why couldn't they just hang around, nagging us about synthetics and putting a quick stop to any really unfortunate ones? I think tens of thousands of years of stewardship by godlike machines who persistently warn us about the devilry of synthetic life might be more compelling than you think. I must also say, this argument that "humans never learn from the mistakes of history" is anthropological gobbledygook and there is zero evidence to support that it is true. It's the kind of highly emotional, logically absurd statement an ORGANIC would make.

2. I don't understand Reaper logic regarding the singularity in which synthetic life wipes out all organic life as an inevitability, because it has never happened. There has been zero incidences of this happening, ever. Why would a purely logical machine that functions on observations/facts start leaping to conclusions? They're the most advanced synthetic in the galaxy, and they seem rather pro organic...in their way. Why couldn't the singularity just lead to another batch of pro-organic synthetics? The Geth and EDI already show promise, regardless of the small sample size regarding their existence. If anything the behavior of the Reapers seems highly alarmist.

3. Why wouldn't Harbinger/Sovereign explain all of this? Why be mysterious and threatening? Why claim their motivations are beyond understanding? The Catalyst Kid goes on to explain their motivations in about 2 minutes of conversation, and Shepard says "Oh alright then" and starts flipping switches. Clearly this was meant to be a profoundly convincing argument, easily delivered and easily understood and accepted.

4. If the option to perform space magic and turn everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid was there from the outset, why on earth mess around with the cycle/harvesting? Why not just do your space magic? Problem solved, with 100% less murder and effort.

1. I'll deal with that below.

2. There are plenty of malevolent AIs in the very short time frame of Mass Effect. Geth and EDI are pretty much the only temporary exceptions. And keep in mind that the whole 50,000 years is less then a heartbeat to the timespan of the reapers, they have seen this cycle happen before over and over again.

3. It wasn't until the catalyst was finished and hooked up to the citadel that the other solutions presented themselves. Harbinger/Sovereign didn't feel the need to explain it, because to them, Shepard was a worthless finite being. The catalyst on the other hand saw Shepard as the only organic around at the time the crucible was hooked up, so Shepard was the one best suited to make the choice, so the catalyst gave some basic info to help shepard make that choice.

4. If the option to perform space magic and turn everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid was there from the outset, why on earth mess around with the cycle/harvesting? Why not just do your space magic? Problem solved, with 100% less murder and effort.

All of your questions are easily answerable and have been answered multiple times, but because the last one is easiest to explain I'll do that one:

The synthesis option isn't always available. It only comes with enough war assets and the Crucible.

I think you're missing the point, which I think is a really good one.
If all you have to do to end the cycle is build the crucible, throw an organic in there, and then have synthetics and organics united in beautiful harmony, why didn't the Reapers do that in the very beginning to save all this fuss of eradicating advanced organics every 50,000 years?

4. As was mentioned it was built over the course of a thousand cycles, and the options presented by the crucible are a little alien to the reaper way of thought. That's why the catalyst said he would not make the choice himself, instead letting Shepard do it.

Alright, something just occurred to me, so I'll ask you guys, as you seem like the likeliest candidates to at least try and make sense of this.

So you're the Reapers. You're an advanced form of Synthetic, or Synthetic/Organic hybrid life. you've decided on this Cycle theory, and you set about laying out the Mass Relays and Citadel as elaborate honey traps so you can direct the growth of organic life to make things easier for yourself when it's harvesting time.

Why on earth would you not prepare them? Indoctrinate them, in a way? You're clearly familiar with the concept. Why not instill in them the idea, the religion, that every 50,000 years they're going to "ascend" or something? Why not make it positive? Why not present yourself as a friend? As a god? As a benevolent force? A protector?

Furthermore, why not make it painless? Why not make yourself appear noble? Why create the most menacing looking vessels imaginable, and then crash around exploding everything with giant lasers, while sending monstrosities bursting through doors to violently savage people? Are you not just maximizing hostility and resistance and making your job unnecessarily difficult, not to mention extraordinarily traumatic for the species you are ostensibly working to protect?

As SajuukKhar has been saying, organic life is by nature brought up to resist those in authority.

Actually, I see a bit of a parallel to religion. We don't know that God exists right now. We have no conclusive proof. People sin daily. People don't know God exists, therefore they don't know if they'll be punished for their sins. If today, God descended on a holy cloud, and made it clear that we're doing something wrong, I'd be willing to be a good sum of money things that are considered sins would have a sudden and sharp drop off in the number of people committing them, if not an entire ceasing all together. Maybe that's inviting in toes to be stepped on, but if the Reapers made it clear that they're willing, able, and ready to kill us if we continue down a path, that path will not be traveled on much anymore.

Perhaps the 85, 10, 5 percent theory does apply. For every rule, it's said that 85% will follow it without question, 5% will break it without question, and 10% will observe the 5% who are breaking it to see if they're being punished, and will act depending on what they see. Even if the Reapers couldn't stamp out every last act they didn't like seeing, it's still a better alternative than killing everything, and 85%-95% of the population is complying with their mandates.

Have you read the bible? God shows up time and time again, performs miracles right in front of people, and they still stubbornly refuse. Signs and wonders don't fix people's hearts.

People can refuse a lot, but once it becomes a part of their lives they can understand, they'll believe it. The Reapers constantly watching, and making known that they're watching, would be more than enough to scare us straight I think.

 

[SajuukKhar]

People can refuse a lot, but once it becomes a part of their lives they can understand, they'll believe it. The Reapers constantly watching, and making known that they're watching, would be more than enough to scare us straight I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chqi8m4CEEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rULKKiJp6NY


All it takes one person, which in the uncertainty of organic evolution said person is bound to show up, to cause a uprising.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

2. There are plenty of malevolent AIs in the very short time frame of Mass Effect. Geth and EDI are pretty much the only temporary exceptions. And keep in mind that the whole 50,000 years is less then a heartbeat to the timespan of the reapers, they have seen this cycle happen before over and over again.

You're not understanding. The singularity proposed is one in which ALL ORGANIC LIFE IS EXTINGUISHED BY SYNTHETICS. As we have organic life, this has clearly never happened. The "unavoidable" singularity has never happened. Ever. It's therefore unscientific rubbish and logically absurd to suggest it's inevitable. I can't imagine a person doing it, let alone a machine. It's basically the ultimate slippery slope argument.

As SajuukKhar has been saying, organic life is by nature brought up to resist those in authority.

That is an atrocious hand wave, and I disagree completely. I don't even know how you'd begin to try and support a statement like this. It's a complete ass pull. Hell, following this logic, the Reapers should hang around PRESSURING organic life to develop synthetics, because then clearly they never would. They resist authority innately!

 

[skywolfblue]

You're not understanding. The singularity proposed is one in which ALL ORGANIC LIFE IS EXTINGUISHED BY SYNTHETICS. As we have organic life, this has clearly never happened. The "unavoidable" singularity has never happened. Ever. It's therefore unscientific rubbish and logically absurd to suggest it's inevitable. I can't imagine a person doing it, let alone a machine. It's basically the ultimate slippery slope argument.

How do we know it hasn't happened? The reapers have been around long enough to have seen the galaxy wiped completely clean of life, and then many millennia later after the synthetics have gotten bored and moved on, new organic life arises. I don't think the catalyst is referring to a complete and forever extinction, where the synthetics stay around forever. This is largely speculation on my part yes, but I think it fits the pattern of "cycles". Synthetic life grows, extinguishes the organics, gets bored, moves on.

However, the it takes a loooong time for organic life to start over all the way from square one. The reapers "solution" is a compromise that speeds up the recovery process.

That is an atrocious hand wave, and I disagree completely. I don't even know how you'd begin to try and support a statement like this. It's a complete ass pull. Hell, following this logic, the Reapers should hang around PRESSURING organic life to develop synthetics, because then clearly they never would. They resist authority innately!

I really don't care to go into philosophical reasons, because I find philosophy to be extremely boring, and because it's a "games" forum, not a philosophy forum.

Shepard said to the catalyst something along the lines of "The defining characteristic of organic life is choice/free will". That sums up the whole idea quite nicely.

 

[SajuukKhar]

You're not understanding. The singularity proposed is one in which ALL ORGANIC LIFE IS EXTINGUISHED BY SYNTHETICS. As we have organic life, this has clearly never happened. The "unavoidable" singularity has never happened. Ever. It's therefore unscientific rubbish and logically absurd to suggest it's inevitable. I can't imagine a person doing it, let alone a machine. It's basically the ultimate slippery slope argument.

For all we know Sythetics races at some point in the past have fucked over organic races to near extinction.

The reapers have been doing their thing for over 1 billion years, they have probably seen Synthetics almost destroy all organic life multiple times.

That is an atrocious hand wave, and I disagree completely. I don't even know how you'd begin to try and support a statement like this. It's a complete ass pull. Hell, following this logic, the Reapers should hang around PRESSURING organic life to develop synthetics, because then clearly they never would. They resist authority innately!

Except part of my argument, which you are seemingly ignoring on purpose, was how we rebel when we have LIMITS imposed on us.

You are taking out a part of my argument then using the dead corpse you made out of taking that part out to try to use it as evidence on why the argument with said part in it doesn't make sense.

It was a very transparent and poorly executed ploy.

 

[SilentVirus]

The Reapers' excuse for their actions was basically like this: They kill organics because eventually synthetics will rise and kill them, so they do it so man-made synthetics wont. Did that confuse you? Did that seem counterproductive? Yeah. Exactly.

 

[SajuukKhar]

The Reapers' excuse for their actions was basically like this: They kill organics because eventually synthetics will rise and kill them, so they do it so man-made synthetics wont. Did that confuse you? Did that seem counterproductive? Yeah. Exactly.

As it has been shown many times in this thread, killing organics is the most resource efficient method and it minimizes the chances of uber-death synthetics being made to its smallest.

 

[Outcast107]

I found this funny


OT: I don't agree with the reaper logic but I can understand it. Though I believe in the indoctrination theory so I think the reapers are just lieing through their...um....tentacles?

 

[chadachada123]

The Reapers' excuse for their actions was basically like this: They kill organics because eventually synthetics will rise and kill them, so they do it so man-made synthetics wont. Did that confuse you? Did that seem counterproductive? Yeah. Exactly.

As it has been shown many times in this thread, killing organics is the most resource efficient method and it minimizes the chances of uber-death synthetics being made to its smallest.

No, it has not been shown, and it is not true.

The most efficient method would be for the Reapers to oversee and ensure DIRECTLY that synthetics (super-powerful ones at least) aren't created without wiping out entire species on a whim. If they only wiped out the technology of a species, that'd be one thing, but slaughtering countless innocents when there is a less-murderous alternative is assholerey to the largest degree.

It's the difference between the god of the Bible (asshole that slaughters people every couple of thousands of years for vague hand-waved reasons) and...well, any half-decent theoretical ultra-powerful being.

Have you read the bible? God shows up time and time again, performs miracles right in front of people, and they still stubbornly refuse. Signs and wonders don't fix people's hearts.

Oh, speak of the devil. Fixing hearts...it's funny you mention that, because the god of the Bible specifically hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he'd be able to kill the Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea crossing. Seems kinda like the Reapers here, taking illogical (not to mention immoral) actions in order to maximize the number of people murdered.