men involved with domestic violence

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

Gangsta Rap lyrics do not " cause" anything. Rap lyrics are a persons words, expression, or endorsement. The reason why companies pay celebrities to endorse their products are because they are influential and have the ability to change the public opinion of their products by seeing someone they look up to use them. Rap lyrics are not just random words, they promote a lifestyle. "Gangsta culture" is not fiction, it is an actual lifestyle that some choose to live. Gangsta rap is just a promotion of that lifestyle, the same way " milk does the body good" commercials promote drinking milk. You may have a difficult time understanding how promotion of gangsta culture works, or how gangsta rap actually came to be, but from the few years I spent living in "Da Grove" ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pleasant+grove ) growing up, I know this is not a situation of just expressing feelings that are not acted upon, they are rapping about reality, not fiction or feelings or actions never acted upon. Much of gangsta rap is actually about real events, things that are actually happening and being done. They play songs about shooting up the hood WHILE they shoot up the hood. They were playing that shit when they shot my cousin changing a tire in his own driveway. These songs are about life in the hood, about real events and are used as a promotion of a very real lifestyle.

Of course rape should be at an all time low, we have thrown tons of money at trying to educate people that it is a bad thing to do, I would hope that would at least have some sort of an effect. We solve these things through education, and having more of society educated now than any other time in history, I would think it should be at an all time low. How this mindset changes is through people standing up against it. Like this rap battle in London:
AT least in London they run the guy of town when they say that stupid shit. The problem in the hood though is someone IS probably being raped out back and they would have to wait their turn. They don't run that shit out of town that is the reality of the situation. We need MORE standing up against it and we will see it further reduced.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Double post, not sure how it did that.

 

[chikusho]

Gangsta Rap lyrics do not " cause" anything.

I'm glad we agree. Since it doesn't cause anything, and only highlights what already exists, not only is it not a problem but it might actually down-right beneficial. You know, since it points out what kind of mentalities we should be fighting against.

Rap lyrics are a persons words, expression, or endorsement. The reason why companies pay celebrities to endorse their products are because they are influential and have the ability to change the public opinion of their products by seeing someone they look up to use them. Rap lyrics are not just random words, they promote a lifestyle.

Rap lyrics are plenty of things. Sometimes it's those things you mentioned, other times it's the complete opposite. I don't really see how that's relevant either way.

"Gangsta culture" is not fiction, it is an actual lifestyle that some choose to live. Gangsta rap is just a promotion of that lifestyle, the same way " milk does the body good" commercials promote drinking milk.

Do you still not realize the difference between "enjoy product" and "hurt people"? If people really were that impressionable, no kind of society would ever even remotely function.

Like this rap battle in London:

I'd say gangsta rap has very little to do with the jumpoff battle scene, or even the battle scene in general.
Also, just as no one raped anyone because of gangsta rap lyrics, no one stopped himself from raping someone because of that exchange.

The problem in the hood though is someone IS probably being raped out back and they would have to wait their turn. They don't run that shit out of town that is the reality of the situation. We need MORE standing up against it and we will see it further reduced.

Exactly, so rap lyrics have nothing to do with it. It's all about environment, circumstances, and deeply rooted socio economic issues that lead to people falling through the cracks of the system.

My initial point still stands; Gangsta Rap is not a big problem in the US with it's popularity and it's promotion of rape.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

First you keep saying " Rap" Rap and Gangsta Rap are two different things. To clarify:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangsta_rap
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gangsta%20rap

Yes, Gangsta Rap is completely different than Rap. Gangsta rap IS a big problem in HIGH CRIME AREAS. I agree with Spike Lee on the effects of Gangsta Rap on black communities, because many black youth confuse "gangsta culture" with "black culture" and they identify and allow " gangsta culture" to replace their own.

Simply because the entire US is not a ghetto does not mean that this isn't a problem in the areas where rapes happen much more frequently. Gangsta Rap was born during the "gang wars", and has since spread from there to reinforce that lifestyle among those most at risk for Violence. Yes, there are MANY factors that contribute, of course This is just one symptom. It is still a symptom that should be treated, just as a stuffy nose is treated when the cause is the cold, not the nose.

EDIT: Also what happened at the London rap off is very much relevant. Rape is not a part of " Rap" it is "Gangsta rap" and that rapper thought it was acceptable, otherwise he would not have done so. Luckily, though, the people there did not agree. This event does have more of an impact than you give it credit for. Those there who had not thought that rape was a big deal very well may be influenced by the angry mob telling them that shit isn't cool and by humiliating him on stage like that they made it very clear that anyone who harbors such sentiments is an "idiot" a loser and lame. By actions like that towards people promoting rape they can drive the point home that it is lame to think that way.

Threatening to rape someone is very much a part of gangsta rap, if you have ever listened to underground rappers at local clubs in the hood you would understand that is part of the problem. In the hood, if rape wasn't a part of the show there wasn't a show.

 

[chikusho]

Snip

Yes, Gangsta Rap is completely different than Rap. Gangsta rap IS a big problem in HIGH CRIME AREAS.

I agree with Spike Lee on the effects of Gangsta Rap on black communities, because many black youth confuse "gangsta culture" with "black culture" and they identify and allow " gangsta culture" to replace their own.

Simply because the entire US is not a ghetto does not mean that this isn't a problem in the areas where rapes happen much more frequently. Gangsta Rap was born during the "gang wars", and has since spread from there to reinforce that lifestyle among those most at risk for Violence. Yes, there are MANY factors that contribute, of course This is just one symptom. It is still a symptom that should be treated, just as a stuffy nose is treated when the cause is the cold, not the nose.

Believe me, I know the distinction between genre and sub genre.

You can have a stuffy nose without having a cold, and have a cold without having a stuffy nose.
Either gangsta rap is a big problem in high crime areas, or high crime areas create/attract gangsta rap. Either way it's tangentially related at best, and fighting it is not only impossible but also trying to get at the problem from the wrong end. Kind of like brushing your teeth in the hope that it clears your nasal passage.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip.

Actually, they have been fighting it for quite some time, and have made a huge impact on it as is reflected in the urban dictionary link above causing it to "be tamer" now. With more people standing up and responding the same way they did at the rap off, and prominent members of the black community taking a stand against Gangsta culture, we ARE seeing an improvement. More still has to be done though because even with rape being at an all time low, it is still happening at disturbingly high numbers. They have been fighting it, and been making a difference, and I disagree they are starting at the wrong end. They are fighting the culture that encourages rape. Of course there is far more than gangsta rap that encourages rape and needs to be tackled, this is just ONE of them that they are making progress on.

Even though I have lived on an Indian Reservation and in the Hood, I was actually raped in the wealthiest county per sq ft in the state of Texas by a man I had never spoken to. The statistics say I should have been raped on the reservation or in the hood, but no, it happened to me after we had moved away from all that. The man who raped me, raped because he was an arrogant adrenaline junkie who thought it was a form of entertainment. He "hunted" me. He was attractive and well liked in the community. How do you propose we solve that?

 

[chikusho]

Even though I have lived on an Indian Reservation and in the Hood, I was actually raped in the wealthiest county per sq ft in the state of Texas by a man I had never spoken to. The statistics say I should have been raped on the reservation or in the hood, but no, it happened to me after we had moved away from all that. The man who raped me, raped because he was an arrogant adrenaline junkie who thought it was a form of entertainment. He "hunted" me. He was attractive and well liked in the community. How do you propose we solve that?

Sorry to hear about your trauma.

I say the same thing I always say when asked about societal issues.
Increased investments in the quality and access to education, more and better access to health and mental care, a more tightly knit social safety net and efforts to decrease income and class inequality. You know, the fundamental basics that have been repeatedly proven to increase the happiness and quality of life for everyone involved. Things that create a more stable situation for everyone, that not only actively prevents crime and conflict, but also makes it easier to spot people in danger of turning bad.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Even though I have lived on an Indian Reservation and in the Hood, I was actually raped in the wealthiest county per sq ft in the state of Texas by a man I had never spoken to. The statistics say I should have been raped on the reservation or in the hood, but no, it happened to me after we had moved away from all that. The man who raped me, raped because he was an arrogant adrenaline junkie who thought it was a form of entertainment. He "hunted" me. He was attractive and well liked in the community. How do you propose we solve that?

Sorry to hear about your trauma.

I say the same thing I always say when asked about societal issues.
Increased investments in the quality and access to education, more and better access to health and mental care, a more tightly knit social safety net and efforts to decrease income and class inequality. You know, the fundamental basics that have been repeatedly proven to increase the happiness and quality of life for everyone involved. Things that create a more stable situation for everyone, that not only actively prevents crime and conflict, but also makes it easier to spot people in danger of turning bad.

Sure, that solution helps with the issues facing wealth inequality but does nothing to affect my situation what so ever. He was highly educated, wealthy, and well liked in the community. If you have ever watched "American Pie" I could describe him as like "Steve Stiffler" but more muscular. When you have guys that think raping is exciting and fun just for the thrill of it, how do you combat that? I wish my experience was isolated, but my best friend was raped 2 years later by a "sports hero" from our school, another girl was raped by half the football team in the school parking lot. What can be done to have an effect on reducing " wealthy, educated rapists" or " thrill seekers"?

Rape happens here as well:
http://www.trulia.com/for_sale/Heath,TX
This is not just a lack of education or a poverty issue.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

I'm sure you'll think I'm picking nits, but "Patriarchy theory" is just a theory. It doesn't do anything, and while it might allow for muddy thinking on account of being a muddy term, it is not a guarantee of it. Arguing that every application of it is "utterly ridiculous", even in informal discussion such as a message board, strikes me as the exact kind of lazy one-size-fits-all thinking you're purporting to oppose.

It just strikes me as needlessly provocative, given this is already a stupidly contentious and polarized discussion, in which most of the contributors have shown up armed to the teeth with confirmation bias.

Not nit-picky at all. The theory itself, as laughable as it is, and as you point out, still just a theory. But it is what people do with the theory, even if they just believe in it, which disturbs me the most. Likewise, Religions are founded on unsupported theories of the after life. They in themselves don't do anything do they? But what people choose to do with said theories are what I find disturbing. I find it necessary to point out the hilarity of said theories, demonstrating why they are utterly ridiculous in order to curtail questionable behaviors built on poor justifications for these theories.

Now you can say that Patriarchy theory doesn't do anything, while I contend that much of the damage has already been done. People are writing books about it, blogs are everywhere decrying the Patriarchy, Feminism as a base ideology has become infected with it's association, etc. Now you may think there is no harm in discussing such things, but what is the purpose of such discourse beyond a philosophical level? Should we have a credible academic discussion regarding this notion and charge people $100k to pursue higher education in merely talking about how this affects their lives? Can we then have more pictures of "I need Feminism because my Gender Studies degree includes *Patriarchy Theory 101*"?

It's one thing to discuss a theory. It's entirely another to craft the theory in such a way which leads no room for discussion. As a primary example; not believing in the Patriarchy proves the Patriarchy exists.

And no, I don't believe for a second anything you say to the contrary.

I guess that leaves no room for discussion. I will agree to disagree and part ways. Good Day.

Really? You are so blind that you can't see a parallel in systemic issues with a system run primary by/for women as opposed to men? Well thanks for demonstrating one of the inherent core problems with your position then.

 

[Padwolf]

I'm really happy to see that men involved with domestic violence is gaining much more acknowledgement. It's a serious crime that does happen, like men being raped and it needs a lot more awareness. More people need to come forward and report the abuse, it's very disheartening that many men do not come forward out of fear of not being taken seriously. Though I know that's easier said than done. It's great to see a charity focused on men.

 

[chikusho]

Sure, that solution helps with the issues facing wealth inequality but does nothing to affect my situation what so ever. He was highly educated, wealthy, and well liked in the community. If you have ever watched "American Pie" I could describe him as like "Steve Stiffler" but more muscular. When you have guys that think raping is exciting and fun just for the thrill of it, how do you combat that? I wish my experience was isolated, but my best friend was raped 2 years later by a "sports hero" from our school, another girl was raped by half the football team in the school parking lot. What can be done to have an effect on reducing " wealthy, educated rapists" or " thrill seekers"?

Rape happens here as well:
http://www.trulia.com/for_sale/Heath,TX
This is not just a lack of education or a poverty issue.

It can help because wealth and class inequality works from both ends. The kid from the rich family runs a little less of a risk to grow up feeling like he's superior to everyone around him, and is entitled to anything he wants. The kid who grows up poor will still have enough support from society and people around him to maybe not feel that he deserves to take from those who have more than him. The local community as a whole get more opportunities to work across boundaries and through their differences to instill the values of respect and dignity in the growing generation, and against use of violence as a valid course of action.
This setup provides a framework for people, and kids in general, to learn what rape actually is. Which undoubtedly leads to a decrease in its occurrence.

Granted, some people with narcissistic, psycho- or sociopathic personality disorders are always going to find ways to ruin the day for people. But a stable society and community has greater means to spot these people and probably runs a lower risk of creating them.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Sure, that solution helps with the issues facing wealth inequality but does nothing to affect my situation what so ever. He was highly educated, wealthy, and well liked in the community. If you have ever watched "American Pie" I could describe him as like "Steve Stiffler" but more muscular. When you have guys that think raping is exciting and fun just for the thrill of it, how do you combat that? I wish my experience was isolated, but my best friend was raped 2 years later by a "sports hero" from our school, another girl was raped by half the football team in the school parking lot. What can be done to have an effect on reducing " wealthy, educated rapists" or " thrill seekers"?

Rape happens here as well:
http://www.trulia.com/for_sale/Heath,TX
This is not just a lack of education or a poverty issue.

It can help because wealth and class inequality works from both ends. The kid from the rich family runs a little less of a risk to grow up feeling like he's superior to everyone around him, and is entitled to anything he wants. The kid who grows up poor will still have enough support from society and people around him to maybe not feel that he deserves to take from those who have more than him. The local community as a whole get more opportunities to work across boundaries and through their differences to instill the values of respect and dignity in the growing generation, and against use of violence as a valid course of action.
This setup provides a framework for people, and kids in general, to learn what rape actually is. Which undoubtedly leads to a decrease in its occurrence.

Granted, some people with narcissistic, psycho- or sociopathic personality disorders are always going to find ways to ruin the day for people. But a stable society and community has greater means to spot these people and probably runs a lower risk of creating them.

Even in environments where people are equal in class and wealth we still have issues such as "sports rape culture" and "affluenza"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook/2013/12/13/affluenza-and-sports-rape-culture-have-a-lot-in-common/
http://www.thenation.com/blog/176846/how-jock-culture-supports-rape-culture-maryville-steubenville

I am not sure how we can make a dent in " rape culture" without actually addressing it as "rape culture". I agree that bridging wealth and resource gaps greatly help resolve issues, but I also do not think they solve all of the issues. I feel the only way to make a difference in groups that foster rape and other harmful activities is to address those issues directly to those groups and change the atmosphere that "this is acceptable" in the groups where it is being promoted as such.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It can help because wealth and class inequality works from both ends. The kid from the rich family runs a little less of a risk to grow up feeling like he's superior to everyone around him, and is entitled to anything he wants. The kid who grows up poor will still have enough support from society and people around him to maybe not feel that he deserves to take from those who have more than him. The local community as a whole get more opportunities to work across boundaries and through their differences to instill the values of respect and dignity in the growing generation, and against use of violence as a valid course of action.

While reducing wealth inequality is a good thing, and would help with all sorts of problems, I don't see it helping with this one. I don't see a connection between the above and this:

This setup provides a framework for people, and kids in general, to learn what rape actually is. Which undoubtedly leads to a decrease in its occurrence.

Teaching people what rape actually is, and who does it[footnote]That is, people who commit rape are the ones that commit rape, even if they are otherwise respectable members of communities[/footnote] is essential, and this is mostly separate from wealth inequality.

Now, I will certainly grasp that class plays a part in whether or not someone is respectable, and thus whether or not they might be seen as a rapist (as opposed to this being determined when they rape someone), but that's far from the whole story.

 

[chikusho]

While reducing wealth inequality is a good thing, and would help with all sorts of problems, I don't see it helping with this one. I don't see a connection between the above and this:

It helps because it bridges gaps between people from different classes and backgrounds, and provides a stable environment where the things taught are actually understood. It also provides the possibility of developing empathy for other people at a younger age, integration and equal treatment puts everyone in the same boat.
Plus, inequality leads alienation from society, which in turn leads to feelings of powerlessness and frustration. The very same kind of frustration that can turn people apathetic or violent, and force dominion over other people to achieve a sense of control - something that's very much related to rape.

Also, it doesn't matter if schools teach kids about rape if the people who really need to hear it aren't there. Reducing class inequality and improving education helps to keep kids in school.

 

[Schadrach]

What exactly are you suggesting, that men should defend themselves with violence?

If necessary yes. Self defence using proportionate violence is considered ok in any other scenario so why make an exception here?

Bad idea, especially if the law gets involved. Being entirely honest, if a woman is engaging in domestic violence against a man and the cops get called, odds are he's going to jail and she will be given the option of a temporary restraining order if she wants it. If he does anything to defend himself, those odds only get worse for him.

Maybe it is a regional " rough house" thing? The guys I knew growing up were more like Marshall and his brothers from how I met your mother:
...
Violence is far from the last resort here in the DFW metroplex in Texas. We have cartels, gangs and fight clubs all over the place. In the schools here you cannot even wear two different colored shoe laces or bracelets because people show gang colors that way. Rape jokes are not okay when they are part of the condoning and acceptance of rape. How do you take away it's power when guys think it is funny to rape someone as a form of punishment?

I suspect it is, because that doesn't sound anything like where I'm from, but then if I recall you grew up in what was literally one of the most violent/highest crime place in the country, didn't you? And where you live now is better, but only because the bar is set pretty low by comparison?

Compare, this is the highest crime community that city-data.com has anything on within 50 miles of me: http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Charleston-West-Virginia.html My own hometown they have 2012 numbers for, and it had a total of 6 crimes (split between theft and burglary) in the categories they look at in that year. 99% of crime in my little home town are nonviolent drug offenses and traffic violations, and only the latter really gets enforced unless someone starts growing weed or cooking meth (and then state police get involved rather than the local cops, who mostly hand out traffic tickets, scare off teenagers violating curfew, and deal with the occasional bit of vandalism).

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

What exactly are you suggesting, that men should defend themselves with violence?

If necessary yes. Self defence using proportionate violence is considered ok in any other scenario so why make an exception here?

Bad idea, especially if the law gets involved. Being entirely honest, if a woman is engaging in domestic violence against a man and the cops get called, odds are he's going to jail and she will be given the option of a temporary restraining order if she wants it. If he does anything to defend himself, those odds only get worse for him.

Maybe it is a regional " rough house" thing? The guys I knew growing up were more like Marshall and his brothers from how I met your mother:
...
Violence is far from the last resort here in the DFW metroplex in Texas. We have cartels, gangs and fight clubs all over the place. In the schools here you cannot even wear two different colored shoe laces or bracelets because people show gang colors that way. Rape jokes are not okay when they are part of the condoning and acceptance of rape. How do you take away it's power when guys think it is funny to rape someone as a form of punishment?

I suspect it is, because that doesn't sound anything like where I'm from, but then if I recall you grew up in what was literally one of the most violent/highest crime place in the country, didn't you? And where you live now is better, but only because the bar is set pretty low by comparison?

Compare, this is the highest crime community that city-data.com has anything on within 50 miles of me: http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Charleston-West-Virginia.html My own hometown they have 2012 numbers for, and it had a total of 6 crimes (split between theft and burglary) in the categories they look at in that year. 99% of crime in my little home town are nonviolent drug offenses and traffic violations, and only the latter really gets enforced unless someone starts growing weed or cooking meth (and then state police get involved rather than the local cops, who mostly hand out traffic tickets, scare off teenagers violating curfew, and deal with the occasional bit of vandalism).

I only lived in "da Hood" for 3 years growing up, although my cousins still live there. We then moved to the wealthiest per sq ft county in the state, so it isn't a matter of the bar being low, we went from one extreme to another. Here, there are millionaires and mansions all over the place. You should consider that the DFW metroplex has the best and the worst around. More than half of all the Billionaires in Texas live in DFW. I moved back to Heath after college.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Heath-Texas.html
http://homesoftherich.net/2011/10/two-newly-built-mansions-in-heath-tx/
http://www.trulia.com/for_sale/Heath,TX/price;d_sort

 

[generals3]

What exactly are you suggesting, that men should defend themselves with violence?

If necessary yes. Self defence using proportionate violence is considered ok in any other scenario so why make an exception here?

Bad idea, especially if the law gets involved. Being entirely honest, if a woman is engaging in domestic violence against a man and the cops get called, odds are he's going to jail and she will be given the option of a temporary restraining order if she wants it. If he does anything to defend himself, those odds only get worse for him.

I know, and my whole point is that that needs to be fixed. It is the aggressor who should be punished and not the one defending oneself, regardless of gender.