Mens Rights Activists

[The Bucket]

Why should I let you ignore what I said and move the goalposts to make your point? Believe me, I'm already well aware that MRM is a movement of middle-class white men (as a white guy I get to hear this shit a LOT). The point I made in my original post, that you're avoiding by setting the stage in the first world, is that it's VERY TELLING who people feel the need to champion.

...You realize you could replace 'men' with 'women' and 'MRA' with 'Feminism' and it would be just as relevant, yeah? Unless you think feminists like Bahar Mustafa and Jude Ashburn are fighting for women who are legitimately disadvantaged and at risk (Hint: They're not).

Is it kids? Disabled people? Wrongly accused criminals? The mentally ill? There are so many millions of people in first world countries who are just horribly dicked over, that's it's weird to choose the group that just has it SO well by comparison. Are we as incredibly well-off as we were decades ago? No, but by comparison with every other group "White Dude" is still the way to be in first world nations. If you want to argue against that, you're going to need more than anecdote enshrined in blog posts, you'd need to address large-scale metrics like lifespan.

Uh... I wasn't aware that studies sanctioned by government agencies were 'anecdotal blog posts', but okay.

I would also add that "Men's Rights" always seems to be about a very particular type of man's rights... it's not like MRA's are scooping disadvantaged men off the streets and into good homes after all.

...One of the main issues is that services like that don't exist for men? More men are homeless because programs exist to pull women off the streets.

Aaaanyway... back to the other 6.* billion people on Earth... why not them? Why not ALL of them? You know what, we can pare this down even more.

Because MRAs aren't reacting to feminism as a concept, just the feminism in countries where they're more concerned with more benefits and not equality? (IE: First world) I'm sure you could find some MRAs who are, but I can find feminists who are raving lunatics. So what? MRAs don't exist in places like Iraq because, surprise, men are actually the ruling party there.

Concerned about miscarriages of justice in family court? Great, there's a cause, and breaking it down by gender is just a bizarre choice. Concerned about support networks in society that women created over the years to compensate for being left out in the cold? OK... so stop babbling about "Red-Pilling" and start founding some organizations that just do positive community outreach.

Where are you going to get the support or funding for those organizations? The difference between feminists and MRAs is that people already accept that women have problems and will work towards resolving them. Getting funding and the like for women's support groups is simple. But when problems that men face (domestic violence and sexual abuse especially), people tend to laugh about it and dismiss it as a non-issue. There's no infrastructure to build off. It's an attitude problem that can only be worked on by constantly bringing the issues to light and getting people to think about it. Feminism is already far beyond that point.

My favorite... rape in prison. Sexual assault in prison, and in a larger sense the poor treatment we impose on our prisoners is appalling across the board. Once again, the choice to focus narrowly on just one issue out of so many (Gangs, corruption, for-profit prison abuses, staff:inmate ratios, food, access to quality medical care, etc) just seems like an issue of convenience.

That's the second time you brung up a flawed argument just to shoot it down. So uh, congrats on your one man conversation?

So yeah, I get why you'd want to start by moving the goalposts, but now hopefully you can see why I don't play that game.

The only thing I see is an extreme level of white guilt and utter contempt for men. And before you get around to accusing me of a 'Mighty Whitey' shtick (as I'm sure is coming up), I should point out that I'm Latino.

So... avoidance through equivocation and anecdote

Cherrypicking..

The usual complaint that programs for women exist because women created them...

A bit of context for why MRM is a bunch of 1st world white guys, and then a fun bit of insight into what it takes for you to see men as "ruling".

A good question... whoa a good question, albeit one with an obvious answer. How to fun these programs for men... well, one idea would be to make them programs for PEOPLE, not just men. Just because some women are missing that boat, doesn't mean you need to respond in kind.

How else to fund it? I don't know... lets see now much of the wealth in this country (USA) is concentrated in the hands of white men. Wow... That's a LOT! I'd get cracking on asking them I guess?

Finally, maybe these programs don't get funded because they're run by MRA lunatics, and are just an excuse for much broader prejudice. Maybe people aren't as concerned with the overall winners in society winning a little less? Maybe you don't have a good cause when you make it "Boys vs. Girls", even when there are girls doing the same.

Ok, and... you avoid an argument again, and... oh look, your race. Latino, well, you certainly don't see an enormous backlash against women in the Latino community. I've always admired how Latino women are subject to statistically lower rates of domestic abuse, sexual violence, etc. Oh wait.. no... it's the other way around! I think it's almost a nice thing to be honest, that people can overcome racial prejudice out of a shared fear of losing supremacy over their women.

2 minutes of googling and I found many examples of very reputable looking mens shelters, they are being done, but you wont see them if your only engagement with any aspect of the movement is Reddit or whatever. And what does the overall winners in society matter for the individual? Some men being mega rich oil barons and skewing the average high doesnt really help homeless guys.

There has to be SOME justification for forming a movement to represent only the interests of one group, as opposed to being for overall universal human rights, doesn't there?

I would add, I'm not the one claiming that men's shelters don't exist.

Why would you need justification? Special interest movements exist for every different portion of society, disease, social problem etc. you can imagine. Every problem is different and I dont see whats wrong with concerned people joining together to focus on that particular subject instead of forming a giant monolith group to try and solve every issue ever.

And you said that programs like what was being discussed dont get funded because they're run by lunatics, apologies if I misinterpreted what you meant.

So, MRA's are just aiming to be the special interest lobby for men? Seriously? Where's the lobbying effort? I mean one that exists JUST for the programs you're talking about, and not one affiliated with something on the SPLC hate-group list of course.

The other thing is... you can have a special interest group cutting taxes on billionaires, or ones like NAMBLA. I wouldn't describe that status as being one that is necessarily associated with respectable and honest causes. Most groups that focus on special interests like Malaria or human trafficking for instance, do so because of the enormous scale of the problem. MRA's by contrast, represent a tiny minority of those effected by the issues they champion. If your goal overall is to end domestic abuse for example, it makes very little sense to focus on the issue by gender. That some women have, doesn't excuse the actions of MRA's.

I think the issue that MRA's do everything they can to dodge, and the reason most of us just laugh and/or ignore them, is that it DOES boil down to more than the "message". I've never met an MRA offline who didn't devolve into a speech about his "***** of an ex-wife" within minutes. I've never met an MRA online that I think for a second espouses half of the shit they claim offline. There is a LOT of hiding behind anonymity that you don't see in legitimate movements out in the world.

I'm sorry, you have some evidence of men being "Ridiculed"?

Beyond that, Florida, Cali, NY, Boston, Texas, Chicago... I could go on, but right there you have a super majority of the US population covered.

The Bandit already posted one link, but here's another. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913504/

Mass/Maine: Attempting to set up a shelter. Key word is 'attempting'.

Georgia: Men aren't allowed in the shelter.

California/Tennessee: Offer services to abusers/anger management, not victim services (aside from Oasis Valley)

Texas: I'm glad 'The Women's Shelter' and 'The Women's Haven' claim they also cater to men.

That link... where exactly was that article published? I can only find a generalized Springer paywall link, but no reference of the peer-reviewed publication.

To the rest... OK... can I have links to the information about these "attempts"? I would love to see who exactly is trying, and what they've been struggling with. You are after all, just making a bunch of claims without anything like support.

EDIT:
http://www.saveservices.org/inclusive-vawa/shelter-listings/

Hmmm... are they all liars too?

First, i'm not American, so who are the SPLC? Because i've literally never heard anyone talk about them besides to bring up their stance on MRAs, so i'm not sure what makes them qualified to illegitimize an entire global movement.
I dont think its really accurate to equal homeless men, or the hordes of young boys on ADD medicine who might not need them or any of the other disenfranchised groups often brought up to NAMBLA. Not every man is rich and powerful, there are just some at the very top who tip the average and usually aren't that concerned about everyone else. And if you're implying that the problems arent worthwhile to tackle because many people (like malaria sufferers etc.) have it worse, that's extremely faulty logic, no matter how good or bad you have it someone else will always have it worse somewhere. That doesnt mean your problems are any less valid.
On the subject of gender based movements, gender does often have a part to play in how you're affected by an issue. This goes for both men and women.

As for IRL encounters; I have met very reasonable passionate people who'd fall into the category of MRAs, so this is just a personal experience thing

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Of course they don't allow men in a women's shelter. Why would they? Less than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, while 42% of female homicides are intimate partner violence.

The homicide rate for men is also a full 4 times higher for women, which means that through simply math there should be two thirds as many male only shelters for the same reason since there are two thirds as many men killed by female partners then there are women killed by male partners.

The homicide rate for men is not affected by domestic violence shelters, so that would be pointless. Most men are killed by a male acquaintance. You do not save them from their acquaintances by putting them in shelters. LOL Your numbers are terribly FALSE. over 90% of homicides are male perpetrators. LESS than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, 42% of female homicides are intimate partner. and among those, MOST of the intimate partners are ALSO MALE.

Do the math again. The male homicide rate is a full 4 times that of women. In absolute terms, that means that when you do the math it ends up with a full 2 men being killed by a female partner for every 3 women who are killed by a male one.

You're right that most homicide is caused by men, but it's also against men as well. Most homicide is male on male, in hell going further then that most homicide is between men of the same race on top of that.

The only relevance this has to the issue at hand is skewing the numbers when people can't differenciate between rate and absolute numbers and then say something stupid like because "only" 7% of homicide of men is by female partners that means it's not anywhere near as big an issue as for women since 42% of homicide is by male partners, even though the absolute number is 2 men for every 3 women.

I'm not even getting my numbers from a different source then you are, I'm only pointing out the fact that you're making a massive clerical error by mixing up rate and volume.

What on earth are you talking about?! Homicide =\= intimate partner homicide. Intimate partner homicide for women in 6 TIMES that of men. 90% of ALL homicides are male perpetrators. EVEN in intimate partner homicides against men which only account for 7% of male homicides, MOST of that 7% is ALSO male perpetrators the 7 percent is just intimate female partner, it is including Male with male partner. RE-READ:

The homicide rate for men is not affected by domestic violence shelters, so that would be pointless. Most men are killed by a male acquaintance. You do not save them from their acquaintances by putting them in shelters. LOL Your numbers are terribly FALSE. Over 90% of homicides are male perpetrators. LESS than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, 42% of female homicides are intimate partner. and among those, MOST of the intimate partners are ALSO MALE for the male partner violence as well.

"Where the victim/offender relationship was known, female murder victims were almost 6 times more likely than male murder victims to have been killed by an intimate (42% vs 7%)."
"56% of male murder victims were killed by an acquaintance; another 25% were murdered by a stranger. The percentage of males killed by an intimate fell from 10% in 1980 to 5% in 2008, a 53% drop."
http://opdv.ny.gov/statistics/nationaldvdata/intparthom.html

Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders.[4]
Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[4]
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[4]
Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological fathers was slightly higher than for biological mothers.[4]
However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% were killed by males.[4]
Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.[4]
Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).[4]
Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)[4]
Males were most likely to be victims of drug- (90.5%) and gang-related homicides (94.6%).[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

"MYTH #3: THE REAL PROBLEM IS COUPLES WHO ASSAULT EACH OTHER. WOMEN ARE JUST AS VIOLENT AS MEN.
FACT: A well-publicized study conducted by Dr. Murray Strauss at the University of New Hampshire found that women use violent means to resolve conflict in relationships as often as men. However, the study also concluded that when the context and consequences of an assault are measured, the majority of victims are women. The U.S. Department of Justice has found that 85% of the victims of spouse abuse are female. Men can be victims, but it is rare."
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/myths.htm

I think you are trying to munch numbers in that won't make any sense. Homicides =\= " battered women's shelters" they do not put women into shelters who were beat up by their female friends either, why would they have to leave their spouse for that? You do not put men into shelters for " acquaintance violence".. you are using the wrong numbers, the number of total homicides has nothing to do with the need for shelters.

 

[Zontar]

Of course they don't allow men in a women's shelter. Why would they? Less than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, while 42% of female homicides are intimate partner violence.

The homicide rate for men is also a full 4 times higher for women, which means that through simply math there should be two thirds as many male only shelters for the same reason since there are two thirds as many men killed by female partners then there are women killed by male partners.

The homicide rate for men is not affected by domestic violence shelters, so that would be pointless. Most men are killed by a male acquaintance. You do not save them from their acquaintances by putting them in shelters. LOL Your numbers are terribly FALSE. over 90% of homicides are male perpetrators. LESS than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, 42% of female homicides are intimate partner. and among those, MOST of the intimate partners are ALSO MALE.

Do the math again. The male homicide rate is a full 4 times that of women. In absolute terms, that means that when you do the math it ends up with a full 2 men being killed by a female partner for every 3 women who are killed by a male one.

You're right that most homicide is caused by men, but it's also against men as well. Most homicide is male on male, in hell going further then that most homicide is between men of the same race on top of that.

The only relevance this has to the issue at hand is skewing the numbers when people can't differenciate between rate and absolute numbers and then say something stupid like because "only" 7% of homicide of men is by female partners that means it's not anywhere near as big an issue as for women since 42% of homicide is by male partners, even though the absolute number is 2 men for every 3 women.

You're basically claiming that the increased homicide rate as a result of violent crimes other than domestic, somehow magically feeds back into the domestic stat and increases it. That's not how it works...

EDIT: I mean, I want to be really clear that I'm not saying this to taunt or insult, but that's just a REALLY basic logical and math error.

Uh, no, what I'm saying is that one needs to learn the difference between rate and absolute numbers.

Lets put the rates into perspective:

For every 1 woman who is murdered, 4 men are murdered
Out of every 100 women who are murdered, 42 of them are by a male partner
Out of every 100 men who are murdered, 7 of them are by a female partner

The mistake you and Lil Devil are making is that you are making the assumption that that means 35 more women then men are murdered by a partner, when in reality it's 14 because for every 100 women who are murdered, 400 men are, so basic math means that it is 28 men who are murdered from this hypothetical sample based on the real rates for every 42 women who are, which is a full two thirds.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Of course they don't allow men in a women's shelter. Why would they? Less than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, while 42% of female homicides are intimate partner violence.

The homicide rate for men is also a full 4 times higher for women, which means that through simply math there should be two thirds as many male only shelters for the same reason since there are two thirds as many men killed by female partners then there are women killed by male partners.

The homicide rate for men is not affected by domestic violence shelters, so that would be pointless. Most men are killed by a male acquaintance. You do not save them from their acquaintances by putting them in shelters. LOL Your numbers are terribly FALSE. over 90% of homicides are male perpetrators. LESS than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, 42% of female homicides are intimate partner. and among those, MOST of the intimate partners are ALSO MALE.

Do the math again. The male homicide rate is a full 4 times that of women. In absolute terms, that means that when you do the math it ends up with a full 2 men being killed by a female partner for every 3 women who are killed by a male one.

You're right that most homicide is caused by men, but it's also against men as well. Most homicide is male on male, in hell going further then that most homicide is between men of the same race on top of that.

The only relevance this has to the issue at hand is skewing the numbers when people can't differenciate between rate and absolute numbers and then say something stupid like because "only" 7% of homicide of men is by female partners that means it's not anywhere near as big an issue as for women since 42% of homicide is by male partners, even though the absolute number is 2 men for every 3 women.

You're basically claiming that the increased homicide rate as a result of violent crimes other than domestic, somehow magically feeds back into the domestic stat and increases it. That's not how it works...

EDIT: I mean, I want to be really clear that I'm not saying this to taunt or insult, but that's just a REALLY basic logical and math error.

Uh, no, what I'm saying is that one needs to learn the difference between rate and absolute numbers.

Lets put the rates into perspective:

For every 1 woman who is murdered, 4 men are murdered
Out of every 100 women who are murdered, 42 of them are by a male partner
Out of every 100 men who are murdered, 7 of them are by a female partner

The mistake you and Lil Devil are making is that you are making the assumption that that means 35 more women then men are murdered by a partner, when in reality it's 14 because for every 100 women who are murdered, 400 men are, so basic math means that it is 28 men who are murdered from this hypothetical sample based on the real rates for every 42 women who are, which is a full two thirds.

I'm sorry, your math is terribly off on this. Not only are you drawing the wrong conclusion here, The 7% includes male with male intimate partner as well. The 7% IS ALL intimate partners, including gay couples.

 

[Zontar]

What on earth are you talking about?! Homicide =\= intimate partner homicide. Intimate partner homicide for women in 6 TIMES that of men. 90% of ALL homicides are male perpetrators. EVEN in intimate partner homicides against men which only account for 7% of male homicides, MOST of that 7% is ALSO male perpetrators. RE-READ:

The homicide rate for men is not affected by domestic violence shelters, so that would be pointless. Most men are killed by a male acquaintance. You do not save them from their acquaintances by putting them in shelters. LOL Your numbers are terribly FALSE. Over 90% of homicides are male perpetrators. LESS than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, 42% of female homicides are intimate partner. and among those, MOST of the intimate partners are ALSO MALE for the male partner violence as well.

Again, do the math. I never said that the number of men killed by their partner was the same as women, you seem to be thinking that is what it was.

Yes, most homicide is done by men, yes, most of it is against other men, but here's what you are intentionally ignoring: 4 times as many men die as women through homicide.

I refer you to the math I did in my previous post.

 

[Zontar]

I'm sorry, your math is terribly off on this. Not only are you drawing the wrong conclusion here, The 7% includes male with male intimate partner as well.

So what? Unless you're going to argue that gay men should not have protection from shelters, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

What on earth are you talking about?! Homicide =\= intimate partner homicide. Intimate partner homicide for women in 6 TIMES that of men. 90% of ALL homicides are male perpetrators. EVEN in intimate partner homicides against men which only account for 7% of male homicides, MOST of that 7% is ALSO male perpetrators. RE-READ:

The homicide rate for men is not affected by domestic violence shelters, so that would be pointless. Most men are killed by a male acquaintance. You do not save them from their acquaintances by putting them in shelters. LOL Your numbers are terribly FALSE. Over 90% of homicides are male perpetrators. LESS than 7% of male homicides are intimate partner violence, 42% of female homicides are intimate partner. and among those, MOST of the intimate partners are ALSO MALE for the male partner violence as well.

Again, do the math. I never said that the number of men killed by their partner was the same as women, you seem to be thinking that is what it was.

Yes, most homicide is done by men, yes, most of it is against other men, but here's what you are intentionally ignoring: 4 times as many men die as women through homicide.

I refer you to the math I did in my previous post.

MOST of the 7% of the males killed by an intimate partner are ALSO male partners killing the males.

 

[Zontar]

MOST of the 7% of the males killed by an intimate partner are ALSO male partners killing the males.

You got a source for that? Because none of what you posted so far makes or supports that claim.

It also begs the question why you think that men shouldn't have shelters because it's other men doing the victimizing, because that's what you seem to be pointing towards with your posts.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I'm sorry, your math is terribly off on this. Not only are you drawing the wrong conclusion here, The 7% includes male with male intimate partner as well.

So what? Unless you're going to argue that gay men should not have protection from shelters, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

No one said that, in fact it was stated in this very thread the opposite. Of that 7% that qualify , most places find it easier to put them in a hotel since there are so few of them, than build a shelter for couple of guys in an area. The women are the ones that are overcrowded and have to share their beds with their children and other women, men get their own rooms.

 

[The Bucket]

Why should I let you ignore what I said and move the goalposts to make your point? Believe me, I'm already well aware that MRM is a movement of middle-class white men (as a white guy I get to hear this shit a LOT). The point I made in my original post, that you're avoiding by setting the stage in the first world, is that it's VERY TELLING who people feel the need to champion.

...You realize you could replace 'men' with 'women' and 'MRA' with 'Feminism' and it would be just as relevant, yeah? Unless you think feminists like Bahar Mustafa and Jude Ashburn are fighting for women who are legitimately disadvantaged and at risk (Hint: They're not).

Is it kids? Disabled people? Wrongly accused criminals? The mentally ill? There are so many millions of people in first world countries who are just horribly dicked over, that's it's weird to choose the group that just has it SO well by comparison. Are we as incredibly well-off as we were decades ago? No, but by comparison with every other group "White Dude" is still the way to be in first world nations. If you want to argue against that, you're going to need more than anecdote enshrined in blog posts, you'd need to address large-scale metrics like lifespan.

Uh... I wasn't aware that studies sanctioned by government agencies were 'anecdotal blog posts', but okay.

I would also add that "Men's Rights" always seems to be about a very particular type of man's rights... it's not like MRA's are scooping disadvantaged men off the streets and into good homes after all.

...One of the main issues is that services like that don't exist for men? More men are homeless because programs exist to pull women off the streets.

Aaaanyway... back to the other 6.* billion people on Earth... why not them? Why not ALL of them? You know what, we can pare this down even more.

Because MRAs aren't reacting to feminism as a concept, just the feminism in countries where they're more concerned with more benefits and not equality? (IE: First world) I'm sure you could find some MRAs who are, but I can find feminists who are raving lunatics. So what? MRAs don't exist in places like Iraq because, surprise, men are actually the ruling party there.

Concerned about miscarriages of justice in family court? Great, there's a cause, and breaking it down by gender is just a bizarre choice. Concerned about support networks in society that women created over the years to compensate for being left out in the cold? OK... so stop babbling about "Red-Pilling" and start founding some organizations that just do positive community outreach.

Where are you going to get the support or funding for those organizations? The difference between feminists and MRAs is that people already accept that women have problems and will work towards resolving them. Getting funding and the like for women's support groups is simple. But when problems that men face (domestic violence and sexual abuse especially), people tend to laugh about it and dismiss it as a non-issue. There's no infrastructure to build off. It's an attitude problem that can only be worked on by constantly bringing the issues to light and getting people to think about it. Feminism is already far beyond that point.

My favorite... rape in prison. Sexual assault in prison, and in a larger sense the poor treatment we impose on our prisoners is appalling across the board. Once again, the choice to focus narrowly on just one issue out of so many (Gangs, corruption, for-profit prison abuses, staff:inmate ratios, food, access to quality medical care, etc) just seems like an issue of convenience.

That's the second time you brung up a flawed argument just to shoot it down. So uh, congrats on your one man conversation?

So yeah, I get why you'd want to start by moving the goalposts, but now hopefully you can see why I don't play that game.

The only thing I see is an extreme level of white guilt and utter contempt for men. And before you get around to accusing me of a 'Mighty Whitey' shtick (as I'm sure is coming up), I should point out that I'm Latino.

So... avoidance through equivocation and anecdote

Cherrypicking..

The usual complaint that programs for women exist because women created them...

A bit of context for why MRM is a bunch of 1st world white guys, and then a fun bit of insight into what it takes for you to see men as "ruling".

A good question... whoa a good question, albeit one with an obvious answer. How to fun these programs for men... well, one idea would be to make them programs for PEOPLE, not just men. Just because some women are missing that boat, doesn't mean you need to respond in kind.

How else to fund it? I don't know... lets see now much of the wealth in this country (USA) is concentrated in the hands of white men. Wow... That's a LOT! I'd get cracking on asking them I guess?

Finally, maybe these programs don't get funded because they're run by MRA lunatics, and are just an excuse for much broader prejudice. Maybe people aren't as concerned with the overall winners in society winning a little less? Maybe you don't have a good cause when you make it "Boys vs. Girls", even when there are girls doing the same.

Ok, and... you avoid an argument again, and... oh look, your race. Latino, well, you certainly don't see an enormous backlash against women in the Latino community. I've always admired how Latino women are subject to statistically lower rates of domestic abuse, sexual violence, etc. Oh wait.. no... it's the other way around! I think it's almost a nice thing to be honest, that people can overcome racial prejudice out of a shared fear of losing supremacy over their women.

2 minutes of googling and I found many examples of very reputable looking mens shelters, they are being done, but you wont see them if your only engagement with any aspect of the movement is Reddit or whatever. And what does the overall winners in society matter for the individual? Some men being mega rich oil barons and skewing the average high doesnt really help homeless guys.

There has to be SOME justification for forming a movement to represent only the interests of one group, as opposed to being for overall universal human rights, doesn't there?

I would add, I'm not the one claiming that men's shelters don't exist.

Why would you need justification? Special interest movements exist for every different portion of society, disease, social problem etc. you can imagine. Every problem is different and I dont see whats wrong with concerned people joining together to focus on that particular subject instead of forming a giant monolith group to try and solve every issue ever.

And you said that programs like what was being discussed dont get funded because they're run by lunatics, apologies if I misinterpreted what you meant.

So, MRA's are just aiming to be the special interest lobby for men? Seriously? Where's the lobbying effort? I mean one that exists JUST for the programs you're talking about, and not one affiliated with something on the SPLC hate-group list of course.

The other thing is... you can have a special interest group cutting taxes on billionaires, or ones like NAMBLA. I wouldn't describe that status as being one that is necessarily associated with respectable and honest causes. Most groups that focus on special interests like Malaria or human trafficking for instance, do so because of the enormous scale of the problem. MRA's by contrast, represent a tiny minority of those effected by the issues they champion. If your goal overall is to end domestic abuse for example, it makes very little sense to focus on the issue by gender. That some women have, doesn't excuse the actions of MRA's.

I think the issue that MRA's do everything they can to dodge, and the reason most of us just laugh and/or ignore them, is that it DOES boil down to more than the "message". I've never met an MRA offline who didn't devolve into a speech about his "***** of an ex-wife" within minutes. I've never met an MRA online that I think for a second espouses half of the shit they claim offline. There is a LOT of hiding behind anonymity that you don't see in legitimate movements out in the world.

I'm sorry, you have some evidence of men being "Ridiculed"?

Beyond that, Florida, Cali, NY, Boston, Texas, Chicago... I could go on, but right there you have a super majority of the US population covered.

The Bandit already posted one link, but here's another. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913504/

Mass/Maine: Attempting to set up a shelter. Key word is 'attempting'.

Georgia: Men aren't allowed in the shelter.

California/Tennessee: Offer services to abusers/anger management, not victim services (aside from Oasis Valley)

Texas: I'm glad 'The Women's Shelter' and 'The Women's Haven' claim they also cater to men.

That link... where exactly was that article published? I can only find a generalized Springer paywall link, but no reference of the peer-reviewed publication.

To the rest... OK... can I have links to the information about these "attempts"? I would love to see who exactly is trying, and what they've been struggling with. You are after all, just making a bunch of claims without anything like support.

EDIT:
http://www.saveservices.org/inclusive-vawa/shelter-listings/

Hmmm... are they all liars too?

First, i'm not American, so who are the SPLC? Because i've literally never heard anyone talk about them besides to bring up their stance on MRAs, so i'm not sure what makes them qualified to illegitimize an entire global movement.
I dont think its really accurate to equal homeless men, or the hordes of young boys on ADD medicine who might not need them or any of the other disenfranchised groups often brought up to NAMBLA. Not every man is rich and powerful, there are just some at the very top who tip the average and usually aren't that concerned about everyone else. And if you're implying that the problems arent worthwhile to tackle because many people (like malaria sufferers etc.) have it worse, that's extremely faulty logic, no matter how good or bad you have it someone else will always have it worse somewhere. That doesnt mean your problems are any less valid.
On the subject of gender based movements, gender does often have a part to play in how you're affected by an issue. This goes for both men and women.

The Southern Poverty Law Center... they're an NGO that tracks hate groups. They got started dealing with the KKK waaaaay back when (hence the name), but they've kept up with the times. Now they track far-right militia movements, far-left eco terrorists, MRA groups, White Power Movements, etc... etc...

You should check them out, they might be enlightening as to the reality of the MRM as a whole

I see a ton of disparate groups (some of whom dont even identify as MRAs) including mass murders lumped into one, most of them internet based (most of what they write is about the "manosphere") as well as being almost entirely USA focused. The MRA movement has its roots in the mens liberation movement all the way back in the 70s, this doesnt seem comprehensive enough to be a very reasonable universal condemnation.

 

[Zontar]

So what? Unless you're going to argue that gay men should not have protection from shelters, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

No one said that, in fact it was stated in this very thread the opposite. Of that 7% that qualify , most places find it easier to put them in a hotel since there are so few of them, than build a shelter for couple of guys in an area. The women are the ones that are overcrowded and have to share their beds with their children and other women, men get their own rooms.[/quote]

See here's the problem, as stated before using simple math: there is a full two thirds as many male victims as female ones, which means that either the solution used for men is one which should be used for women, or the one women are getting is the one men are being denied.

Do I need to explain the difference between a rate and absolute number again?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

So what? Unless you're going to argue that gay men should not have protection from shelters, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

No one said that, in fact it was stated in this very thread the opposite. Of that 7% that qualify , most places find it easier to put them in a hotel since there are so few of them, than build a shelter for couple of guys in an area. The women are the ones that are overcrowded and have to share their beds with their children and other women, men get their own rooms.

See here's the problem, as stated before using simple math: there is a full two thirds as many male victims as female ones, which means that either the solution used for men is one which should be used for women, or the one women are getting is the one men are being denied.

Do I need to explain the difference between a rate and absolute number again?

That isn't how they determine shelters at ALL. you are drawing the wrong conclusion. First there is a matter of 1) funding. 2) volunteers without those things we get nothing. Then from there they are NEED based. Most domestic violence victims DO NOT NEED protection SHELTERS. Most victims :1) They have a place to stay. 2) The abuser left on their own and is no longer a threat. 3) The abuser has been taken into custody and is no longer a threat. Those that need protection are 1) Their abuser is actively hunting them. 2) Their abuser has put a hit out on them. 3)They and their children are in immediate danger and need protection from their abuser. The rest go to homeless shelters.

So you take the number of people who meet the criteria above, then you deal with what resources you have available to provide that, however, most resources are extremely lacking, so they come no where near meeting the demand for women and children who are in need of protection from their intimate partner actively hunting them to kill them. Most men are not being hunted by their intimate partners.. male or female intimate partners since so few men are actually killed by intimate partners in the first place. Women are 6 times more likely to be killed by their intimate partner is why more women need shelters than men. ALSO many women in immediate danger are denied because they usually only take women with children as well. BOTH men and women without children pretty much are SOL for shelter much of the time.

 

[Zontar]

Snip

See here's the problem, even taking the difference in how many people need the different services shelters provide, there is a downright unjustifiable imbalance in both the number of shelters and their funding. Yes, the services women and children get are underfunded as it is, that doesn't change the fact that for men the situation isn't only the same, it's even worst in those regards. I mean hell just look at the UK for to see this in action: They have 40 shelters for men compared to 7400 for women. In that specific case the difference is 18,750%, and I highly doubt the issue effects women almost two hundred times as much as it does men. Or hell, my own Canada where it's virtually impossible to find shelter or get any real help at all, to the point where someone who tried to help solve the problem ended up killing himself when he couldn't manage to keep it since like all shelters he couldn't manage to operate it on donations alone and for some reason the government refused to help (if this was the UK we could put it down to pressure from feminist organizations, but this isn't the UK so it wasn't part of that scandal).

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

See here's the problem, even taking the difference in how many people need the different services shelters provide, there is a downright unjustifiable imbalance in both the number of shelters and their funding. Yes, the services women and children get are underfunded as it is, that doesn't change the fact that for men the situation isn't only the same, it's even worst in those regards. I mean hell just look at the UK for to see this in action: They have 40 shelters for men compared to 7400 for women. In that specific case the difference is 18,750%, and I highly doubt the issue effects women almost two hundred times as much as it does men. Or hell, my own Canada where it's virtually impossible to find shelter or get any real help at all, to the point where someone who tried to help solve the problem ended up killing himself when he couldn't manage to keep it since like all shelters he couldn't manage to operate it on donations alone and for some reason the government refused to help (if this was the UK we could put it down to pressure from feminist organizations, but this isn't the UK so it wasn't part of that scandal).

They do shelter the men.. in a hotel since that is less expensive than building a shelter for the men due to the number of men that meet the same qualifications as the women. They do not have the same need for a shelter as the women so.. and women WOULD LOVE to get a hotel room instead.. the shelters you cannot even bring a razor to shave your legs in or take an aspirin. The women in there have no privacy and are monitored 24/7. It isn't just the men who cannot get funding. That is why many here operate off off thrift store sales and church donations alone.

Yea some of the shelters here actually do operate on donations alone, and it is very rough when the funds are not enough, but in areas where the state is non supportive, this is all they have. I heard the same was happening to many of them in the Uk as well. ( linked a news article earlier in the thread about them shutting down women's shelters due to funding)

 

[Bat Vader]

Not all domestic abuse victims require or go to a shelter, and that should be made clear. You cannot use base numbers like that to gauge the number of people actually seeking a shelter. Yes, it is actually incomparable as far as numbers of people seeking shelter from abuse. Here, not even all women are allowed into the shelters the demand so much outweighs the supply. " domestic violence" sadly does not qualify you for a shelter here, your life has to actually be in danger. The women that are admitted into the shelter here are sent from the hospital, they do not usually take walk ins and the ones that arrive are in pretty bad shape.

Since you were so interested I took an actual look at the data tables in the ONS survey I linked earlier (Table 4.01 to be specific if you want to look). Here are the numbers for that year for "Force (Severe)":
Family abuse: Men - 0.6% Women - 0.9%
Partner abuse: Men - 1.1% Women 1.3%

So as far as actual severe force (i.e. actual severe domestic violence) goes its about a 33:66 ratio for family abuse and a 45:55 ratio for partner abuse of men:women. Still incomparable? Frankly your argument here appears to rely on the old stereotype that "men don't get abused and don't need help". That isn't to say in some categories there aren't dramatic differences (sexual abuse being the most glaring difference), but you raised a specific point and...well...here is your answer.

The fact that places are oversubscribed (which they are; for both men and women) is a matter of record. It is not an argument in favour of supporting this imbalance but is an argument in favour of increasing funding in general.

ALSO, do you have the numbers on those victims in regards to whether or not their abuser was male or female? From all of the studies I have read, males are more likely to be victims, but it is ALSO males that are more likely to be the ones abusing them. Males usually are more likely to abuse both males and females, and out of all race/ sex groups white females are the least likely to be abusive from the numbers.

See...this is why I am highly suspicious of these discussions, because you appear to be trying to direct this away from the subject at hand to something you know you can "win". How is it relevant who the perpetrator is? The focus was purely on provision of support for victims.

Look at it this way: if someone gets their leg torn off by a killer whale, is bleeding to death and gets taken to hospital then it doesn't help them to have all of the doctors standing around going "well now, that's very unusual, normally people get bitten by sharks instead". I'm aware that its a tortured metaphor here but it does serve its purpose: the focus should be on helping the victim, not on who was the perpetrator.

I am not directing it away from the discussion, I am asking where are the stats on the perpetrators, not the victims? The subject at hand is from what I have seen, the numbers often get smudged to cover up the fact that it is mostly men responsible for the violence against other men, they are dishonest about what has actually occurred. You cannot address the issue unless you 1) know who is responsible for the violence and why is the violence happening? My idea of " winning" is we solve the problem and we have less people hurt by these things. In order to do that we have to actually address the perpetrators, not the victims. You help the victims by making LESS perpetrators. MAKE. IT. STOP. that is the best help you can give.

How is who is responsible for the beatings relevant at all? This discussion between you two started over whether shelter's for men were needed. If it's men or women beating men, those shelters are still needed.

Why do you seem more interested in proving that women can't be evil than addressing anyone's actual points?

If you actually read through the rest of the thread you would see why this is not only relevant, but necessary to allocate the funding. Battered women's shelters exist to prevent intimate partner homicides, in order to prevent intimate partner homicides, you have to address intimate partner homicides. Just because you are a " battered woman" does not even mean you will be admitted into a battered women's shelter or a safe house due to lack of resources available. Unless you meet the criteria, you are usually sent to a homeless shelter instead. I have no idea why people think simply because someone hit you means you can get into a battered shelter, it does not.

It's not a coincidence... The Southern Poverty Law Center has a whole section on the bullshit spread by MRA groups to justify their stances. The usual pattern is a couple of anecdotes, bolstered by the implication that they are happening ALL OF THE TIME. Follow up with feminist conspiracy theories, and then pivot to the idea that without MRA's the issues they claim to support would be left out in the cold.

It's all crap, like the endless talk of "Saving the race" from the KKK. It's just people who have figured out that you can't go around spouting prejudice these days, without following certain rules. Most of all though, it's a way for guys struggling with changes in their societies to get together and ***** with the minority of guys who wouldn't laugh in their faces for it. It's also a way for guilty white guys to assume the cherished victim-role. Finally, it's a way for socially disaffected and sexually inadequate losers to blame their failures on women (this is the really CRAZY end of the MRA thing)

No one should be laughed at though if they just want to talk about their problems. People shouldn't expect others to keep everything inside. What marks someone as socially disaffected and sexually inadequate? My social skills are incredibly low and I am still a virgin at the age of 27 but that is purely by choice because the idea of touching someone else disgusts me.

They do shelter the men.. in a hotel since that is less expensive than building a shelter for the men due to the number of men that meet the same qualifications as the women.

Between a shelter and a hotel I would choose the hotel.