Mens Rights Activists

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Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Lightspeaker said:
Lil devils x said:
feminists are the ones responsible for bringing us our domestic violence and abuse hotlines, they have volunteered countless hours and raised the funds to bring us these services or they would not exist today.
Er...for the record just a few years ago there were reports that major feminist groups here in the UK were working on politicians behind the scenes to oppose more shelters for male domestic abuse victims because it'd take money away from shelters for women (because the ratio of funding was at the time drastically skewed in womens' favour, way beyond the actual ratios of victims, not sure how it is now).

I know there's a tendency to see your own side as the one true, just cause but its not exactly fair to just overlook the more unsavoury aspects of it. Which is why I'm not exactly a fan of either movement and prefer the middle ground of all problems of imbalance actually being addressed appropriately, not just those of one group.
Wasn't that shown that it would be more efficient to put the male victims in a hotel than to pay to upkeep a shelter due to the numbers affected? The difference is female victims are at epidemic levels while there are far less male victims that need to have resources allocated. You do not spend the same amount of resources on both male and female since the number of victims is not comparable. The funding should be according to the number of people affected.

"Counselor: Like, normally they?d pay for a flat or something instead, they wouldnt, they don?t continue to keep you in a, you know, holding pattern in a hotel. Sometimes they make you stay for, like, two weeks in a hotel."
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/04/02/reno-calls-a-domestic-violence-hotline-the-mra-reality-distortion-field-in-action/
But the hotel isn't good enough for the MRA, they want to be put in the shelter with the abused women..
 

Gorrath

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thaluikhain said:
Gorrath said:
AS a member of and MRA group in my local area, the comparison to PETA is a fallacy meant to make us seem like lunatics.
No, it was meant to illustrate the different between being a Men's Rights Activist and a men's rights activist. PETA was merely the first group to come to mind. Admittedly, I have no great respect for either group.
That's like saying there's a difference between a Feminist and a feminist. MRM is a movement, not a groupthink or a particular organization in the same way that feminism isn't the NOW.


Gorrath said:
You mean like myself and pretty much everyone associated with the group I belong to?
Yes. Now, I don't doubt that there are people who are both, but I'd very much doubt they are in large numbers.
I don't doubt that there are because I'm actually an active member of both movements.

Gorrath said:
There's a distinct special pleading that goes on with regard to MRM and Feminism where accusations against feminist groups are hand-waved as fallacies by the same people who use the same accusations against MRM. The MRM will have its loonies and will go through the same growing pains of any movement but distilling its activists down to stereotypes and conflating a movement with a specific activist group or groups is no more justified with MRM than it is with Feminism.
The MRMs like that are in the same proportion and have the same power as the feminists like that, and no more? Yeah, I don't buy that at all.

Now, you personally may genuinely care about rights, for both men and women, but I very much doubt that this is true of the MRM as a whole.
You don't have to buy it, I don't even expect you to. The whole narrative around MRA and the MRM has been to accept fallacies against MRM that people reguarly debunk against feminism. The special pleading and opinions based on it are vacuous. Lots of people say that they don't buy that feminism is about equality. Lots of people say that feminism is just women with an axe to grind against men. Lots of people don't buy that women face any opression at all. I think they are wrong because I took the time to educate myself and get active about it. I think you are wrong for exactly the same reason.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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Daniel Ferguson said:
So, do these actually exist? I don't go to the comments sections of articles very often (a good thing) so I don't really know for certain, but I hear the MRAs are all up in arms about Mad Max Fury Road, so apparently this is a real thing? Maybe?

Or are they like an urban legend?
Well, this represents the problem with the way the US (and most of the first world) operates. We've moved into an environment where pretty much all media and all of the platforms needed to communicate ideas on a level to gain any influence are privately owned. Even a country as free as the US has it's laws rooted in some very dated logic, so the "right to free speech" only protects you from government censorship, largely because it was believed by the people who wrote those laws that only the government would be able to engage in censorship. It was also never really conceived that you might see a genuinely incestuous relationship between the press and politicians to force specific idealogy on people. In today's world we pretty much have the majority of platforms controlled by "liberals" who exercise private ownership over them to control and/or prevent the expression of points of view or ideas that do not fit their agenda. When something sneaks through the cracks, or comes up through one of the platforms they don't control, it becomes very easy to shout them down and demonize them simply on the merits of controlling far more platforms. With this kind of control over the flow of information it becomes very easy to indoctrinate people as well. I myself have long argued that we need laws that prevent the exclusive private control of platforms, and which limit the ability of private citizens to censor other private citizens. One of the biggest signs of societal decay right now is when you see people from the dominant position argueing "the right to free speech does not guarantee one a platform, or protections from the repercussions of that free speech" which is truly frightening as it undermines the entire idea, and yet people believe it. By that logic and interpretation there is no point to even having the right, since people can ruin your life over what you say or think, and of course prevent you from expressing yourself in any meaningful fashion. Much like could have happened in say England at the time where speaking against your betters could bring strong societal and social repercussions, and of course they could have you arrested or flogged for putting your soap box somewhere where people could actually hear you.... but this is just warming up to answering your question.

Men's rights advocates DO exist, but you generally don't hear from them because they simply aren't allowed platforms because the very idea of Men's rights is anathema to the liberal positions and power base, and is contrary to what the left wing spent a long time fighting for. When a Men's right advocate does get something out there, they are immediately shouted down and demonized into the worst kind of person without much ability to get a word in edgewise. Given that it's not practical to express such sentiments on any large scale, most do not, and as such your not likely to find them unless you really look. Every once in a while you might hear one referenced or make a point somewhere, but it's pretty uncommon. It's much like the people who argue that whites are being discriminated against, you just can't find many platforms that will let you express that kind of message, and if you do find one, all of the liberals will jump on you and rip you to shreds since they maintain tight control of most of the media and platforms.

See, case in point, you get some guy who comes out and says that he dislikes how heavily weighted the system is towards women who claim rape, to the point where even if a guy manages to win he's going to be tainted for life. He might make points about how women already don't have to justify their behavior as much as should be necessary in a criminal trial, and how disturbing it is that there are movements to increasingly require women to provide less and less personal and background information because it's "demeaning". This guy would likely be attacked as being everything from a predatory rapist himself, to someone engaged in "victim blaming", or "slut shaming", or whatever else, when fundamentally all he's likely doing is pointing out that a man accused of rape is still supposed to have all the rights of a defendant in the US justice system, and that includes things like being able to grill the accusing party to poke holes in the case since by definition the defense is out to provide a "reasonable doubt". As you point out this can apply to other things like child custody, or heck, even just how men are treated in relationships gone bad. Almost always you hear about how everything bad happens is the guy's fault, the woman being a train wreck rarely comes up when the media airs public disputes. I'm sure exceptions exist, but there is a definite trend in media coverage to present girls as being all sweetness and light, and guys as immoral animals whenever a gender conflict arises.

That said it's not likely to change easily, but yeah, the media needs a lot more influence from the so called "right wing" simply to balance things out, and it needs to be understood that singling out specific groups in the media is bad. It's not "okay" to bash whites and men or whatever, while protecting non-whites and women, it's still biased bigotry no matter who is on the receiving end, and what's more fuels a lot of the social problems society is dealing with. That said you will find VERY few places that will allow you to express sentiments like that, especially on a large scale, and in a lot of places where you can, your going to immediately get hit by a swarm of liberals out to demonize you every which way from Sunday.

To put it into perspective, I wouldn't really consider myself a "Men's Right Activist" or any kind of "Racial Crusader" for whites or any other group, but just for not being liberal I've been attacked to a crazy degree. If you do a search for "Therumancer" you'll probably run into both some conservative posts I wrote on a liberal site or two being mocked, and PART of a disciplinary thing I was involved in on RPG.net (but not the entire discussion) because despite how it looked I was actually not banned from RPG.net (and proved it a couple of times by posting there) though I am not a regular. Someone just found a way of putting that specifically up for a public search for lulz. Mild stuff, but you know... annoying... and at the end of the day I'm about as small potatoes as you can get, imagine the crap I'd get if I actually tried to pursue a greater platform than say hanging out on these forums (which is really the only place I post nowadays). If I wasn't such a RL mess and decided to say try and pursue Youtube "fame" and say become the anti-Anita Sarkeesian by rebutting a lot of the overly liberal stuff in games and the geek media in an effort to give some balance I wouldn't be faking death threats in order to cinematically overreact like Anita, I'd probably have people shooting through my windows. Who knows what would happen to someone who was more serious about some of these issues given the frenzy the rest of these platforms would stir up.
 

Gorrath

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Lil devils x said:
Lightspeaker said:
Lil devils x said:
feminists are the ones responsible for bringing us our domestic violence and abuse hotlines, they have volunteered countless hours and raised the funds to bring us these services or they would not exist today.
Er...for the record just a few years ago there were reports that major feminist groups here in the UK were working on politicians behind the scenes to oppose more shelters for male domestic abuse victims because it'd take money away from shelters for women (because the ratio of funding was at the time drastically skewed in womens' favour, way beyond the actual ratios of victims, not sure how it is now).

I know there's a tendency to see your own side as the one true, just cause but its not exactly fair to just overlook the more unsavoury aspects of it. Which is why I'm not exactly a fan of either movement and prefer the middle ground of all problems of imbalance actually being addressed appropriately, not just those of one group.
Wasn't that shown that it would be more efficient to put the male victims in a hotel than to pay to upkeep a shelter due to the numbers affected? The difference is female victims are at epidemic levels while there are far less male victims that need to have resources allocated. You do not spend the same amount of resources on both male and female since the number of victims is not comparable. The funding should be according to the number of people affected.
Except that shelters often offer more than just a place to stay. They offer support groups, counseling and other resources that just dropping a guy in a hotel does not offer. It may be more efficient but just ignoring men altogether would be even more efficient than that. Also, how can they make any claim about "The number of men affected" when it is notoriously difficult to know what the numbers are? Domestic abuse is one of the most underreported crimes and men are even less likely to report it than women for various reasons, including the lack of shelters/support.
 

Lightspeaker

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Lil devils x said:
Wasn't that shown that it would be more efficient to pt the male victims in a hotel than to pay to upkeep a shelter due to the numbers affected? The difference is female victims are at epidemic levels while there are far less male victims that need to have resources allocated. You do not spend the same amount of resources on both male and female since the number of victims is not comparable.
That's a myth that was highlighted at the time as being part of the source for this problem. Let me see if I can pull up the actual numbers. One second.

Here, article from the Guardian quoting the government statistics at the time that this was a big news story (it also includes the numbers of shelters, 7,500 for women and 40 for men):
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

If you want a non-newspaper source here's the Office for National Statistics report for 2011/2012:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_298904.pdf

"Some 7% of women and 5% of men were estimated to have experienced domestic abuse in the last year, equivalent to an estimated 1.2 million female and 800,000 male victims"

Is that really so incomparable? To be honest when I first heard those reports a few years ago its what shocked me to be highly suspicious of both movements. Because this is the kind of thing that was being buried by propaganda. The point was that the funding was grossly disproportionately in favour of women, and it wasn't in anyone's interests to change that aside from male victims who nobody actually gave a damn about. Which is why it was such a big thing at the time (the media being the media it was swiftly forgotten).
 

BreakfastMan

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Jul 22, 2010
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avoiceformen.com
thespearhead.com
returnofkings.com
and about half a dozen other random blogs

So... There you are. Go crazy, I guess. The Mad Max thing was posted to Return of Kings, which is by far the biggest and the worst out of those three sites, though AVFM and The Spearhead are also super bad.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Gorrath said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
I don't really see the connection between MRAs and what you linked to.
Read down the list.. and they are only naming a few of them in that report...

"MensActivism
Reddit: Mens Rights
A Voice for Men"
To name a few...
The only one of those I recognize are A Voice for Men, and even then it's being misogynistic is something I already knew. Guess MRAs are the other side of the coin of feminism.
No, because mainstream Feminism does not support Misandry, while the MRM not only supports Misogyny, it was basically founded on Misogyny. Feminsim is not the opposite of MRM. MRM exists to try to stop feminism, Feminism exists to try to gain equality for women. BIG difference.
MRM does not exist to "stop feminism." MRM was founded because of clear isntances in our modern society where sexism against men has led to institutionalized oppression. I encounter tons of feminists and progressives that out-right claim this opression doesn't exist, that there are no issues with sexism against men and that anything that seems like sexism or oppression against men is just sexism and oppression against women. It is those attitudes that caused the founding of MRM in response.
The sexism against men is due to the patriarchal society itself defining it as " womens work "to care for the children" IS the issue there. IF MRM's actually wanted to solve the issue with mens rights, they would fight against patriarchal society and for feminism since that would mean women can equally work and men can equally care for children... It is the idea that men are unable to do " women's work" since that is " beneath them to do" because women are " below men" in society that created the issues of men being ridiculed for doing " womanly things." Feminists fight against the idea that women are beneath men and that both women and men should be considered capable of doing the same things.

The Problem with MRM's is they are not doing that at all, instead they DO fight against feminism and for keeping the patriarchal structure of society which in turn keeps " childcare" the duty of women..
What the MRM is doing is actually counterproductive to " men's rights."
 

Zontar

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Feb 18, 2013
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BreakfastMan said:
returnofkings.com
It's already been established (with links) by several posts here that Return of Kings is actively against Men's Rights.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Lightspeaker said:
Lil devils x said:
Wasn't that shown that it would be more efficient to pt the male victims in a hotel than to pay to upkeep a shelter due to the numbers affected? The difference is female victims are at epidemic levels while there are far less male victims that need to have resources allocated. You do not spend the same amount of resources on both male and female since the number of victims is not comparable.
That's a myth that was highlighted at the time as being part of the source for this problem. Let me see if I can pull up the actual numbers. One second.

Here, article from the Guardian quoting the government statistics at the time that this was a big news story (it also includes the numbers of shelters, 7,500 for women and 40 for men):
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

If you want a non-newspaper source here's the Office for National Statistics report for 2011/2012:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_298904.pdf

"Some 7% of women and 5% of men were estimated to have experienced domestic abuse in the last year, equivalent to an estimated 1.2 million female and 800,000 male victims"

Is that really so incomparable? To be honest when I first heard those reports a few years ago its what shocked me to be highly suspicious of both movements. Because this is the kind of thing that was being buried by propaganda. The point was that the funding was grossly disproportionately in favour of women, and it wasn't in anyone's interests to change that aside from male victims who nobody actually gave a damn about. Which is why it was such a big thing at the time (the media being the media it was swiftly forgotten).
Not all domestic abuse victims require or go to a shelter, and that should be made clear. You cannot use base numbers like that to gauge the number of people actually seeking a shelter. Yes, it is actually incomparable as far as numbers of people seeking shelter from abuse. Here, not even all women are allowed into the shelters the demand so much outweighs the supply. " domestic violence" sadly does not qualify you for a shelter here, your life has to actually be in danger. The women that are admitted into the shelter here are sent from the hospital, they do not usually take walk ins and the ones that arrive are in pretty bad shape.

You would have to compare the numbers of victims that are sent to the ER to get the numbers of those sent to the shelters here. Not all " domestic violence" is comparable. ALSO, do you have the numbers on those victims in regards to whether or not their abuser was male or female? From all of the studies I have read, males are more likely to be victims, but it is ALSO males that are more likely to be the ones abusing them. Males usually are more likely to abuse both males and females, and out of all race/ sex groups white females are the least likely to be abusive from the numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime
 

BreakfastMan

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Jul 22, 2010
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Zontar said:
BreakfastMan said:
returnofkings.com
It's already been established (with links) by several posts here that Return of Kings is actively against Men's Rights.
They advocate for exactly the same kind of shit as those other groups do, and many other sites like AVFM have said that they respect roosh and his work. The only real difference is what they refer to themselves as.
 

kenu12345

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Aug 3, 2011
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First off, The 'mra' alot of articles talk about has said that he isn't an mra. Its just a conclusion news outlets have jumped to, but yeah like feminists they exist and are good peope
 

Gorrath

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Lil devils x said:
Gorrath said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
I don't really see the connection between MRAs and what you linked to.
Read down the list.. and they are only naming a few of them in that report...

"MensActivism
Reddit: Mens Rights
A Voice for Men"
To name a few...
The only one of those I recognize are A Voice for Men, and even then it's being misogynistic is something I already knew. Guess MRAs are the other side of the coin of feminism.
No, because mainstream Feminism does not support Misandry, while the MRM not only supports Misogyny, it was basically founded on Misogyny. Feminsim is not the opposite of MRM. MRM exists to try to stop feminism, Feminism exists to try to gain equality for women. BIG difference.
MRM does not exist to "stop feminism." MRM was founded because of clear isntances in our modern society where sexism against men has led to institutionalized oppression. I encounter tons of feminists and progressives that out-right claim this opression doesn't exist, that there are no issues with sexism against men and that anything that seems like sexism or oppression against men is just sexism and oppression against women. It is those attitudes that caused the founding of MRM in response.
The sexism against men is due to the patriarchal society itself defining it as " womens work "to care for the children" IS the issue there. IF MRM's actually wanted to solve the issue with mens rights, they would fight against patriarchal society and for feminism since that would mean women can equally work and men can equally care for children... It is the idea that men are unable to do " women's work" since that is " beneath them to do" because women are " below men" in society that created the issues of men being ridiculed for doing " womanly things." Feminists fight against the idea that women are beneath men and that both women and men should be considered capable of doing the same things.
Your statements here are precisely why I am both a Feminist and an MRA. We have a society that attempts to enforce gender norms on everyone, men and women alike. This leads to opression for both genders that manifests in different ways. I have been arguing exactly this for years. Some feminists fight against the idea that a person's sex should be conflated with what their role in society is or should be and what they are capable of. Some MRAs do exactly the same thing.

The Problem with MRM's is they are not doing that at all, instead they DO fight against feminism and for keeping the patriarchal structure of society which in turn keeps " childcare" the duty of women..
What the MRM is doing is actually counterproductive to " men's rights."
I am an MRA and I do not "fight against feminism" nor does anyone in my MRA group. You are attributing to all MRAs what some think/do. Some feminists fight against men's rights or undermine the MRM. I do not turn around and claim that "feminism" is "against men's rights." What some MRAs do is counterproductive to men's rights. What some feminists do is counterproductive to feminism.

I am an MRA because while there are feminists who do know/care about men's rights issues, there are very strong threads/beliefs within mainstream feminist teaching that misconstrue how and why the patriarchy exists and how it operates on both genders. I spend an immense amount of time talking to feminists who outright claim that there is no sexism against men, that men are the patriarchy, and that men, as a sex, face no opression whatsoever.

So as a self-identifying MRA, I find you're caracterization of the movement, and by extension myself and the people I associate with, to be full of false accusations and fallacies. You will find MRAs who match your description but holding them up as what MRA is while ignoring those who aren't like that is just as fallacious as MRAs claiming that feminism if just a bunch of harpys who hate men. I happily lambast MRAs who do this and I will happily lambast feminists for the same behavior.
 

zerragonoss

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Probably should not jump in here but whatever. Men's rights activist do exists, but their fundamental premise is flawed. There is no such thing as a men?s rights issue. Now this is not to say there are very serious problems with sexism faced by men, many of them have been mentioned in this thread. However men still control the government, if they wanted to change the law they just could and very few of the issues are actually written into law so much as caused done by the people enforcing them. so no rights issue is really there, what there is a sexism issue.
Also any decent feminist should realize that sexism faced by men is just the other side of the coin as sexism faced by women. For example men are not believed when they are abused for the same reason that more women are abused than men. It the stereotype that men are powerful and women are not being played out.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Gorrath said:
Lil devils x said:
Gorrath said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
I don't really see the connection between MRAs and what you linked to.
Read down the list.. and they are only naming a few of them in that report...

"MensActivism
Reddit: Mens Rights
A Voice for Men"
To name a few...
The only one of those I recognize are A Voice for Men, and even then it's being misogynistic is something I already knew. Guess MRAs are the other side of the coin of feminism.
No, because mainstream Feminism does not support Misandry, while the MRM not only supports Misogyny, it was basically founded on Misogyny. Feminsim is not the opposite of MRM. MRM exists to try to stop feminism, Feminism exists to try to gain equality for women. BIG difference.
MRM does not exist to "stop feminism." MRM was founded because of clear isntances in our modern society where sexism against men has led to institutionalized oppression. I encounter tons of feminists and progressives that out-right claim this opression doesn't exist, that there are no issues with sexism against men and that anything that seems like sexism or oppression against men is just sexism and oppression against women. It is those attitudes that caused the founding of MRM in response.
The sexism against men is due to the patriarchal society itself defining it as " womens work "to care for the children" IS the issue there. IF MRM's actually wanted to solve the issue with mens rights, they would fight against patriarchal society and for feminism since that would mean women can equally work and men can equally care for children... It is the idea that men are unable to do " women's work" since that is " beneath them to do" because women are " below men" in society that created the issues of men being ridiculed for doing " womanly things." Feminists fight against the idea that women are beneath men and that both women and men should be considered capable of doing the same things.
Your statements here are precisely why I am both a Feminist and an MRA. We have a society that attempts to enforce gender norms on everyone, men and women alike. This leads to opression for both genders that manifests in different ways. I have been arguing exactly this for years. Some feminists fight against the idea that a person's sex should be conflated with what their role in society is or should be and what they are capable of. Some MRAs do exactly the same thing.

The Problem with MRM's is they are not doing that at all, instead they DO fight against feminism and for keeping the patriarchal structure of society which in turn keeps " childcare" the duty of women..
What the MRM is doing is actually counterproductive to " men's rights."
I am an MRA and I do not "fight against feminism" nor does anyone in my MRA group. You are attributing to all MRAs what some think/do. Some feminists fight against men's rights or undermine the MRM. I do not turn around and claim that "feminism" is "against men's rights." What some MRAs do is counterproductive to men's rights. What some feminists do is counterproductive to feminism.

I am an MRA because while there are feminists who do know/care about men's rights issues, there are very strong threads/beliefs within mainstream feminist teaching that misconstrue how and why the patriarchy exists and how it operates on both genders. I spend an immense amount of time talking to feminists who outright claim that there is no sexism against men, that men are the patriarchy, and that men, as a sex, face no opression whatsoever.

So as a self-identifying MRA, I find you're caracterization of the movement, and by extension myself and the people I associate with, to be full of flase accusations and fallacies. You will find MRAs who match your description but holding them up as what MRA is while ignoring those who aren't like that is just as fallacious as MRAs claiming that feminism if just a bunch of harpys who hate men. I happily lambast MRAs who do this and I will happily lambast feminists for the same behavior.
The movement is characterized by the foundation of that movement and by the actions of the majority within that movement is the issue. It is not " me who has characterized" the SPLC has addressed the majority of the movement as well as many scholars who are in agreement that it was founded as a backlash to feminism. Now that isn't saying that you or your mra group are " mainstream" instead you would be considered the exception, not the rule as far as what the majority have found.

It is great that you wish to change this, but it is easier to say than do when you are talking about something on that large of a scale. You cannot ignore the majority of the movement to show that " hey these few are not like that" to be representative of the movement as a whole.
 

Gorrath

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zerragonoss said:
Probably should not jump in here but whatever. Men's rights activist do exists, but their fundamental premise is flawed. There is no such thing as a men?s rights issue. Now this is not to say there are very serious problems with sexism faced by men, many of them have been mentioned in this thread. However men still control the government, if they wanted to change the law they just could and very few of the issues are actually written into law so much as caused done by the people enforcing them. so no rights issue is really there, what there is a sexism issue.
Also any decent feminist should realize that sexism faced by men is just the other side of the coin as sexism faced by women. For example men are not believed when they are abused for the same reason that more women are abused than men. It the stereotype that men are powerful and women are not being played out.
The fact that men control the government is no way counters the fact that there are issues faced by men that can accurately be called "Men's Rights Issues." What's more, men are in power in government because men and women both vote them in. This is due to a society which largely still basses its ideas about what men and women should do based on what it sees as gender norms.

What's more, the fact that oppression of men isn't something written into law is pretty pointless. Opression of women isn't written into law either, yet you'd agree that women's issues do exist, yes? As you correctly point out, the oppression comes from those enforcing the laws not the laws themselves. Sexist oppression comes from men and women both and affects men and women both. If we want to get rid of the oppression, we have to fight against the attitudes that drive it.

As you say any feminist worth their salt needs to realize that sexism against men and women are two sides of the same coin. Any decent MRA must do this as well. Unfortunately, a lot of people in both movements do not see things this way. If they did, we'd only have one movement.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Gorrath said:
zerragonoss said:
Probably should not jump in here but whatever. Men's rights activist do exists, but their fundamental premise is flawed. There is no such thing as a men?s rights issue. Now this is not to say there are very serious problems with sexism faced by men, many of them have been mentioned in this thread. However men still control the government, if they wanted to change the law they just could and very few of the issues are actually written into law so much as caused done by the people enforcing them. so no rights issue is really there, what there is a sexism issue.
Also any decent feminist should realize that sexism faced by men is just the other side of the coin as sexism faced by women. For example men are not believed when they are abused for the same reason that more women are abused than men. It the stereotype that men are powerful and women are not being played out.
The fact that men control the government is no way counters the fact that there are issues faced by men that can accurately be called "Men's Rights Issues." What's more, men are in power in government because men and women both vote them in. This is due to a society which largely still basses its ideas about what men and women should do based on what it sees as gender norms.

What's more, the fact that oppression of men isn't something written into law is pretty pointless. Opression of women isn't written into law either, yet you'd agree that women's issues do exist, yes? As you correctly point out, the oppression comes from those enforcing the laws not the laws themselves. Sexist oppression comes from men and women both and affects men and women both. If we want to get rid of the oppression, we have to fight against the attitudes that drive it.

As you say any feminist worth their salt needs to realize that sexism against men and women are two sides of the same coin. Any decent MRA must do this as well. Unfortunately, a lot of people in both movements do not see things this way. If they did, we'd only have one movement.
While I do believe there ARE " Men's Issues", I would like to point out that women's oppression was written into law, and feminism was created to try to overcome that. Women were legally and forcefully denied the ability to register an invention, own property, work, and do many other things BY LAW, and are still recovering from this against women. Women could not own property because they were considered property. Men owned women, women did not own men, however. The changing of the laws was only the first step, but due to these wrongs against women, women have not yet fully recovered due to the social stigmas and societal expectations and stereotyping that went along with the laws. You can change the laws quickly but it takes many generations to weed out the bad habits created by them, and even be able to fully enforce the laws. While it is illegal on paper to discriminate against women, it is still very much an issue due to it not always being enforced. Society still has a long road ahead to kick the bad habits created by these things.
 

Zontar

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Feb 18, 2013
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Lil devils x said:
Women were legally and forcefully denied the ability to register an invention, own property, work, and do many other things BY LAW,
Then I guess it was needed in whichever country you're from, but if that was what caused feminism to start, what was its catalyst in places like the UK, Canada or the US where this was never the case?
 

Gorrath

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Feb 22, 2013
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Lil devils x said:
Gorrath said:
Lil devils x said:
Gorrath said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
I don't really see the connection between MRAs and what you linked to.
Read down the list.. and they are only naming a few of them in that report...

"MensActivism
Reddit: Mens Rights
A Voice for Men"
To name a few...
The only one of those I recognize are A Voice for Men, and even then it's being misogynistic is something I already knew. Guess MRAs are the other side of the coin of feminism.
No, because mainstream Feminism does not support Misandry, while the MRM not only supports Misogyny, it was basically founded on Misogyny. Feminsim is not the opposite of MRM. MRM exists to try to stop feminism, Feminism exists to try to gain equality for women. BIG difference.
MRM does not exist to "stop feminism." MRM was founded because of clear isntances in our modern society where sexism against men has led to institutionalized oppression. I encounter tons of feminists and progressives that out-right claim this opression doesn't exist, that there are no issues with sexism against men and that anything that seems like sexism or oppression against men is just sexism and oppression against women. It is those attitudes that caused the founding of MRM in response.
The sexism against men is due to the patriarchal society itself defining it as " womens work "to care for the children" IS the issue there. IF MRM's actually wanted to solve the issue with mens rights, they would fight against patriarchal society and for feminism since that would mean women can equally work and men can equally care for children... It is the idea that men are unable to do " women's work" since that is " beneath them to do" because women are " below men" in society that created the issues of men being ridiculed for doing " womanly things." Feminists fight against the idea that women are beneath men and that both women and men should be considered capable of doing the same things.
Your statements here are precisely why I am both a Feminist and an MRA. We have a society that attempts to enforce gender norms on everyone, men and women alike. This leads to opression for both genders that manifests in different ways. I have been arguing exactly this for years. Some feminists fight against the idea that a person's sex should be conflated with what their role in society is or should be and what they are capable of. Some MRAs do exactly the same thing.

The Problem with MRM's is they are not doing that at all, instead they DO fight against feminism and for keeping the patriarchal structure of society which in turn keeps " childcare" the duty of women..
What the MRM is doing is actually counterproductive to " men's rights."
I am an MRA and I do not "fight against feminism" nor does anyone in my MRA group. You are attributing to all MRAs what some think/do. Some feminists fight against men's rights or undermine the MRM. I do not turn around and claim that "feminism" is "against men's rights." What some MRAs do is counterproductive to men's rights. What some feminists do is counterproductive to feminism.

I am an MRA because while there are feminists who do know/care about men's rights issues, there are very strong threads/beliefs within mainstream feminist teaching that misconstrue how and why the patriarchy exists and how it operates on both genders. I spend an immense amount of time talking to feminists who outright claim that there is no sexism against men, that men are the patriarchy, and that men, as a sex, face no opression whatsoever.

So as a self-identifying MRA, I find you're caracterization of the movement, and by extension myself and the people I associate with, to be full of flase accusations and fallacies. You will find MRAs who match your description but holding them up as what MRA is while ignoring those who aren't like that is just as fallacious as MRAs claiming that feminism if just a bunch of harpys who hate men. I happily lambast MRAs who do this and I will happily lambast feminists for the same behavior.
The movement is characterized by the foundation of that movement and by the actions of the majority within that movement is the issue. It is not " me who has characterized" the SPLC has addressed the majority of the movement as well as many scholars who are in agreement that it was founded as a backlash to feminism. Now that isn't saying that you or your mra group are " mainstream" instead you would be considered the exception, not the rule as far as what the majority have found.
Care to show me what "the actions of the majority" in the movement are? People use that line when bashing feminism all the time, it's a throw away assertion backed up by no evidence. What's more, MRA is a backlash to feminism, I have said so myself. But it is not a backlash against core feminist ideollogy. Characterizing it as "against" feminism is where you run into the problem. MRA exists as a reaction to anti-men feminist teachings coupled with the perception that mainstream feminism does not do enough to help men or push for solutions to men's issues. Saying that MRA is a reaction or "backlash" to feminism is fine and accurate. Conflating that with MRA being opposed to feminism is wrong. For many, MRA is an extension of core feminism that seeks to address the same issues feminism does for women. Unless you can demonstrate to me that the majority of MRAs are against men and women being treated equally by society, I have no reason to accept that MRA is in opposition to feminism.

It is great that you wish to change this, but it is easier to say than do when you are talking about something on that large of a scale. You cannot ignore the majority of the movement to show that " hey these few are not like that" to be representative of the movement as a whole.
And you cannot expect me to accept that that charictarization of the movement is accurate without evidence. The opinion of the SPLC and the contents of its MRA section are not based on scholarly work.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

Lolita Style, The Best Style!
Jan 12, 2010
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Lil devils x said:
The movement is characterized by the foundation of that movement and by the actions of the majority within that movement is the issue. It is not " me who has characterized" the SPLC has addressed the majority of the movement as well as many scholars who are in agreement that it was founded as a backlash to feminism. Now that isn't saying that you or your mra group are " mainstream" instead you would be considered the exception, not the rule as far as what the majority have found.

It is great that you wish to change this, but it is easier to say than do when you are talking about something on that large of a scale.
First off please stop quoting the SLPC, they're an obvious political group, the views they espouse are obviously detached from reality, with little if any proof to ever back them up. Using their broad politicized platform as a fact sheet generally is a bad thing, a good reasoning on this is they often toss trans rights under the bus to get the more politically valuable gay rights legislation through, in other words they'll pull a political stunt to damage one group and favor another one for politics.

The real problem is that like with radical/extreme feminism, the loudest voices in the movement are the crazies, which taints the image of both groups as a whole. This problem also taints gay rights activists, trans rights activists, and all minority rights activists of all stripes. Anyways...

OT: MRAs are something I've found rather an odd thing in comparison to feminists as a general rule. Then again most open feminists I've ever been exposed to in person are TERFs, who spew some of the ugliest bias I've ever heard in my entire life. This is especially saddening because a trans support group I was going to had to change their meeting nights and times dozens of times because of being picketed by TERFs, many of whom espoused violence and murder against trans people. On the opposite end of the scale a MRA group visited the last trans support group meeting I was at, bringing snacks, offering support, and asking basic along with more deep questions about us. I've met many more MRAs who are pro-trans rights, pro-gay rights, and pro-feminist then feminists who similar things can be said about. I've met plenty of feminists who are pro-trans, pro-LGB, pro-men's rights, and just plain pro-equality, but they're a minority compared to the ones I've met who exclude gay men while supporting lesbians, exclude trans people, and spout the oppression of men. I've yet to meet a MRA in the real world who isn't almost entirely pro equality on all levels, just having their primary focus being the rights of men. That's how these groups should work too, if you're pro-equality for everyone that's great, if you want to focus on a certain sector that's good too, because these issues need focus from the people who know their own plights best.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Zontar said:
Lil devils x said:
Women were legally and forcefully denied the ability to register an invention, own property, work, and do many other things BY LAW,
Then I guess it was needed in whichever country you're from, but if that was what caused feminism to start, what was its catalyst in places like the UK, Canada or the US where this was never the case?
LOL that IS where women were restricted by law...

"Under the common law legal doctrine known as coverture, a married woman in Great Britain's North American colonies and later in the United States had hardly any legal existence apart from her husband. Her rights and obligations were subsumed under his. She could not own property, enter into contracts, or earn a salary."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Acts_in_the_United_States