Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes and Rape

[Fsyco]

B) Listen to the end. Here's the thing, I should be upset at the end part more than anything else of the entire tape if I were offended (Which I'm not offended at the material written, I'm offended at where they decided to put it.), but here's the thing, I'm not. Although, yes it's casual sex between a woman and child, and yes, that is beyond fucked to a level of fucked up that I can't begin to describe in words. The reason why I'm not calling the lynch mob on that shit is because of what I said at the beginning. The extent of the torment on the two of these people has been so severe that they are now supporting each other and caring for one another in a romantic way. THAT'S HOW FAR THIS SHIT HAS GONE, THAT'S HOW FAR THEIR PSYCHE HAS BEEN RUINED AND PLUNGED INTO COMPLETE SHAMBLES. It's gone so far, that Paz, a twenty something year old woman is now romantically involved with Chico, a thirteen year old boy...

That wasn't the vibe I got at all from that. It seemed more like Paz was trying to make Chico feel better about the whole thing and make him feel less guilt. Unless I missed something, I didn't get any romance vibes from the conversations between Paz and Chico. Also, being made to rape somebody (presumably at gunpoint or under threat of intense physical pain) doesn't count as 'casual sex'.

Iunno, I think Kojima didn't handle it as badly as other people say. We never hear the actual rape, just the stuff immediately before and after, and the mind does the rest. And to his credit, rape is actually used as a form of torture, especially against women and children. Same goes for the bomb thing, really. It's both left to the imagination and based on actual tactics people use.



BUT if he has the right to put in these things, we as consumers have a right to not like it. I don't really mind it, but I can totally get why people are squicked out by it. Some people are just going to object to rape scenes on a matter of principle, which I suppose they have a right to do. Also, story-wise, this is clearly just the introduction. It's like if I Spit On Your Grave just ended at the rape scene, or if a slasher movie ended after the first kill. We don't get any sense of story arc, context, or cathartic release. I think people are more upset by the fact that Skullator gets away with it rather than the fact he does it in general.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

2) Since this is the introduction, and the focus of the game isn't the torment that Chico/Paz went through, but instead on Snake's mission, I'm kinda fine with that. Especially since this is like Chapter One to a twelve chapter book and people are already asking to kill off the main villain. That's not how good writing works...

Is it? I got the impression he was turning down her advances. Must have missed that bit at the end. Still not getting a 'romance' vibe but a 'sex for comfort' vibe, which is plenty fucked up but a thing that people do. Not gonna lie, I kinda spaced out a little on my first listen because I was mostly bored and underwhelmed. This was not nearly as edgy or sickening as I was led to believe.

How does good writing work, then? You're supposed to hate the bad guy, right? I know Kojima has his faults as a writer, but this doesn't seem to be one of them. I think he's going for having the cathartic release of getting to off the bad guy, and establishing very early on how evil they are and making the player hate them. Otherwise you have the RAGE problem where you never see the bad guys do bad-guy things and are simply told that they're the bad guys. Maybe Kojima over-reached, though. He's always been a little weird with his female characters (but how much of that is him personally and how much is just Japan's cultural taste is hard to discern; IE, Other M's Samus was made to appeal to Japanese gamers), and maybe he could have had this come across better with just the bomb thing. Or maybe non-rape torture. Rape is notably riskier than say, just electrocuting somebody, from both the torturer's standpoint and the writer's.

 

[Kopikatsu]

beating a defenseless old man to death with lightning punches while inside a barrel, is also okay.

Do you mean Sokolov? 'cause Sokolov survived Volgin's torture.

This isn't new ground for Metal Gear. It's actually really old ground. Meryl was raped in MGS 1 (and discussed the pain and shame it caused her)

I admit it's been a long time since I played the first Metal Gear Solid but when is this ever mentioned? I don't remember Meryl saying she was raped or are you talking about when she was mind controlled by Psycho Mantis?

Near the end of the game.

Meryl: I didn't give in to the torture.
Snake: Torture?
Meryl: And things even worse than that. But through all the pain and the shame, I held onto hope.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

Well. It's not really 'casual'...

Chico had been in love with Paz in Peace Walker, back when she was pretending to be a peace loving schoolgirl. So that was probably her way of comforting him or whatever.

 

[Fsyco]

beating a defenseless old man to death with lightning punches while inside a barrel, is also okay.

Do you mean Sokolov? 'cause Sokolov survived Volgin's torture.

I think that's referring to Granin. Granin died from being punched in a barrel by Volgin.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

Well. It's not really 'casual'...

Chico had been in love with Paz in Peace Walker, back when she was pretending to be a peace loving schoolgirl. So that was probably her way of comforting him or whatever.

Yes, this. That wasn't just "hey let's bone for a larf and a harf". Paz was trying to do what she thought would make Chico feel better.

 

[Agente L]

-snip-

You should spoiler that. Also, I'm talking about Granin. But thanks for reminding another old defenseless man who was tortured.

 

[lord canti]

So why did no one get riled up about Eva constantly getting tortured and molested in mgs3? Why did no one complain that the boss had her baby cut out of her leaving a horrible scar all so she could continue fighting? The metal gear series has never shied away from torture even if it's women. Also, course it's overly gory this wasnt a plan surgery, this was a quick lets cut her open and get the bomb out. The whole scene was meant to give Snake some one who already has sever issues the middle finger.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

So why did no one get riled up about Eva constantly getting tortured and molested in mgs3? Why did no one complain that the boss had her baby cut out of her leaving a horrible scar all so she could continue fighting? The metal gear series has never shied away from torture even if it's women. Also, course it's overly gory this wasnt a plan surgery, this was a quick lets cut her open and get the bomb out. The whole scene was meant to give Snake some one who already has sever issues the middle finger.

I'll pretty much repeat it for the fifth time. I WAS, WAS, I WAS. Keyword: WAS, offended by the placement. NOT the material at hand. Not to mention, I haven't played the previous games. This is my introduction into the series.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

beating a defenseless old man to death with lightning punches while inside a barrel, is also okay.

Do you mean Sokolov? 'cause Sokolov survived Volgin's torture.

I think that's referring to Granin. Granin died from being punched in a barrel by Volgin.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

Well. It's not really 'casual'...

Chico had been in love with Paz in Peace Walker, back when she was pretending to be a peace loving schoolgirl. So that was probably her way of comforting him or whatever.

Yes, this. That wasn't just "hey let's bone for a larf and a harf". Paz was trying to do what she thought would make Chico feel better.

Yes! Nothing comforts a man more than a vagina!

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

B) Listen to the end. Here's the thing, I should be upset at the end part more than anything else of the entire tape if I were offended (Which I'm not offended at the material written, I'm offended at where they decided to put it.), but here's the thing, I'm not. Although, yes it's casual sex between a woman and child, and yes, that is beyond fucked to a level of fucked up that I can't begin to describe in words. The reason why I'm not calling the lynch mob on that shit is because of what I said at the beginning. The extent of the torment on the two of these people has been so severe that they are now supporting each other and caring for one another in a romantic way. THAT'S HOW FAR THIS SHIT HAS GONE, THAT'S HOW FAR THEIR PSYCHE HAS BEEN RUINED AND PLUNGED INTO COMPLETE SHAMBLES. It's gone so far, that Paz, a twenty something year old woman is now romantically involved with Chico, a thirteen year old boy...

That wasn't the vibe I got at all from that. It seemed more like Paz was trying to make Chico feel better about the whole thing and make him feel less guilt. Unless I missed something, I didn't get any romance vibes from the conversations between Paz and Chico. Also, being made to rape somebody (presumably at gunpoint or under threat of intense physical pain) doesn't count as 'casual sex'.

Iunno, I think Kojima didn't handle it as badly as other people say. We never hear the actual rape, just the stuff immediately before and after, and the mind does the rest. And to his credit, rape is actually used as a form of torture, especially against women and children. Same goes for the bomb thing, really. It's both left to the imagination and based on actual tactics people use.



BUT if he has the right to put in these things, we as consumers have a right to not like it. I don't really mind it, but I can totally get why people are squicked out by it. Some people are just going to object to rape scenes on a matter of principle, which I suppose they have a right to do. Also, story-wise, this is clearly just the introduction. It's like if I Spit On Your Grave just ended at the rape scene, or if a slasher movie ended after the first kill. We don't get any sense of story arc, context, or cathartic release. I think people are more upset by the fact that Skullator gets away with it rather than the fact he does it in general.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

2) Since this is the introduction, and the focus of the game isn't the torment that Chico/Paz went through, but instead on Snake's mission, I'm kinda fine with that. Especially since this is like Chapter One to a twelve chapter book and people are already asking to kill off the main villain. That's not how good writing works...

Is it? I got the impression he was turning down her advances. Must have missed that bit at the end. Still not getting a 'romance' vibe but a 'sex for comfort' vibe, which is plenty fucked up but a thing that people do. Not gonna lie, I kinda spaced out a little on my first listen because I was mostly bored and underwhelmed. This was not nearly as edgy or sickening as I was led to believe.

How does good writing work, then? You're supposed to hate the bad guy, right? I know Kojima has his faults as a writer, but this doesn't seem to be one of them. I think he's going for having the cathartic release of getting to off the bad guy, and establishing very early on how evil they are and making the player hate them. Otherwise you have the RAGE problem where you never see the bad guys do bad-guy things and are simply told that they're the bad guys. Maybe Kojima over-reached, though. He's always been a little weird with his female characters (but how much of that is him personally and how much is just Japan's cultural taste is hard to discern; IE, Other M's Samus was made to appeal to Japanese gamers), and maybe he could have had this come across better with just the bomb thing. Or maybe non-rape torture. Rape is notably riskier than say, just electrocuting somebody, from both the torturer's standpoint and the writer's.

I'm not saying it's badly written, I'm just talking it's execution and intent. PLUS, I don't know how edgy you thought it was going to be. I mean, after all, it is just an audio tape. I digress, I've come to the conclusion that it's well written, just strangely placed in terms of people who are new to the series.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

Snake being tortured in every other game is alright. Having your eye REMOVED (during a torture session), beating a defenseless old man to death with lightning punches while inside a barrel, is also okay.

All from MGS games. But it's all alright, it seems.

But rape on women? How the dare do such a thing???

Come on guys. Look at yourselves. Why the sudden uproar simply because kojima decide to talk about rape, when there has been many things that are as bad or arguably worst?

Or are you telling me that having your eye cut off during a torture session is nowhere as bad as rape?

MGS always dealt with dark themes. Torture, mass manipulation, nuclear war, loss of freedom/forced control. They just throw whacky names and mystical powers so the game actually feels lighter and campy.

FUCK!

This is the 6th time. THERE'S NO UPROAR. I'M NOT ANGRY AT THE MATERIAL WRITTEN. I THOUGHT IT WAS BADLY PLACED AND AFTER LONGER THOUGHT I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND.

Now on the topic of themes. I'm new to all of MGS therefore I haven't played anything before Ground Zeroes (Or Ground Zeroes itself for that matter) and instead watched a walkthrough and came across this tape. This game series actually looks right alley, and I plan on trying it someday.

 

[anthony87]

So why did no one get riled up about Eva constantly getting tortured and molested in mgs3? Why did no one complain that the boss had her baby cut out of her leaving a horrible scar all so she could continue fighting?

Because nobody with a popular youtube account complained about those things and that's really all this is, people with second and third hand information from a Nerd3 video coming out for some moral posturing.

 

[Fsyco]

Yes! Nothing comforts a man more than a vagina!

Yes, it's dreadfully unhealthy and screwed up, but it's a thing people do. It's not like Paz has a degree in developmental psychology, and even if she did a lot of rational thought breaks down and goes out the window when you're tortured for as long as she was. Nobody's arguing that she should have done it, but that the fact she did is fairly understandable given the circumstances.

How does good writing work, then? You're supposed to hate the bad guy, right? I know Kojima has his faults as a writer, but this doesn't seem to be one of them. I think he's going for having the cathartic release of getting to off the bad guy, and establishing very early on how evil they are and making the player hate them. Otherwise you have the RAGE problem where you never see the bad guys do bad-guy things and are simply told that they're the bad guys. Maybe Kojima over-reached, though. He's always been a little weird with his female characters (but how much of that is him personally and how much is just Japan's cultural taste is hard to discern; IE, Other M's Samus was made to appeal to Japanese gamers), and maybe he could have had this come across better with just the bomb thing. Or maybe non-rape torture. Rape is notably riskier than say, just electrocuting somebody, from both the torturer's standpoint and the writer's.

I'm not saying it's badly written, I'm just talking it's execution and intent. PLUS, I don't know how edgy you thought it was going to be. I mean, after all, it is just an audio tape. I digress, I've come to the conclusion that it's well written, just strangely placed in terms of people who are new to the series.

I can see your point. I've also heard some people say that it's kind of gross that Paz's rape is being used solely to give the male hero some heroic motivation. I'd heard it massively hyped up about how they were rapin' errbody out here, so actually listening to it was quite underwhelming.
I guess the other problem is that there's no silly comic relief to undercut any of this. The first Metal Gear Solid had Snake getting tortured and that buisness with Meryl, but it also had a weeaboo visibly wetting himself. Kojima doesn't really handle comic relief that well, in my opinion, but at least it was there. So all the sexualized traumatic women you had to fight in MGS4 was counter balanced by a naked monkey in his undies. GZ has none of that, just the crushing despair of a military prison. I think maybe that's what caught people off guard, since the series is known for not taking itself too seriously.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

So why did no one get riled up about Eva constantly getting tortured and molested in mgs3? Why did no one complain that the boss had her baby cut out of her leaving a horrible scar all so she could continue fighting?

Because nobody with a popular youtube account complained about those things and that's really all this is, people with second and third hand information from a Nerd3 video coming out for some moral posturing.

Wait what!?!

AGAIN.

I DID NOT DO ANY MORAL POSTURING.

I wanted talk about the story and hear people's opinion's and talk about Nerd3's opinion since he pointed something out to me. THAT'S IT. What the hell dude!??!

 

[anthony87]

So why did no one get riled up about Eva constantly getting tortured and molested in mgs3? Why did no one complain that the boss had her baby cut out of her leaving a horrible scar all so she could continue fighting?

Because nobody with a popular youtube account complained about those things and that's really all this is, people with second and third hand information from a Nerd3 video coming out for some moral posturing.

Wait what!?!

AGAIN.

I DID NOT DO ANY MORAL POSTURING.

I wanted talk about the story and hear people's opinion's and talk about Nerd3's opinion since he pointed something out to me. THAT'S IT. What the hell dude!??!

I wasn't referring to you specifically.

Step away from the keyboard.

Relax.

Stop using caps lock so much.

 

[Fsyco]

Now on the topic of themes. I'm new to all of MGS therefore I haven't played anything before Ground Zeroes (Or Ground Zeroes itself for that matter) and instead watched a walkthrough and came across this tape. This game series actually looks right alley, and I plan on trying it someday.

You can get the Legacy Collection on PS3 for 50 bucks if you're so inclined. It has pretty much every important Metal Gear title (MGS 1-4, Peace Walker, and the original two Metal Gears). I didn't play Peace Walker or Ground Zeroes, though, since Metal Gear Solid 4 has a serious finality about it, if that makes any sense. It felt like a good conclusion to the story, and I felt like that's where it should have ended. Not that it was bad or anything (it has it's flaws but overall I liked it), but it just feels like a big, epic conclusion, and doing anything after that just feels weird, ya know?

 

[Kopikatsu]

Now on the topic of themes. I'm new to all of MGS therefore I haven't played anything before Ground Zeroes (Or Ground Zeroes itself for that matter) and instead watched a walkthrough and came across this tape. This game series actually looks right alley, and I plan on trying it someday.

You can get the Legacy Collection on PS3 for 50 bucks if you're so inclined. It has pretty much every important Metal Gear title (MGS 1-4, Peace Walker, and the original two Metal Gears). I didn't play Peace Walker or Ground Zeroes, though, since Metal Gear Solid 4 has a serious finality about it, if that makes any sense. It felt like a good conclusion to the story, and I felt like that's where it should have ended. Not that it was bad or anything (it has it's flaws but overall I liked it), but it just feels like a big, epic conclusion, and doing anything after that just feels weird, ya know?

You should really pick up PW. It's a great game, and very story heavy. Kinda arcadey, though. Personally, I like that, but I could see how it's not everyone's cup of tea.

I can see your point. I've also heard some people say that it's kind of gross that Paz's rape is being used solely to give the male hero some heroic motivation. I'd heard it massively hyped up about how they were rapin' errbody out here, so actually listening to it was quite underwhelming.

...Eh?

I don't think it's focused at Big Boss at all. As mentioned, the last time he saw Paz, she stole his Metal Gear, tried to kill everyone in his organization (who had become like a family to him), and nuke the US. I don't see why he'd give much of a shit what happened to her. See also: Kaz immediately attempting to strangle Pacifica the first time he saw her after the incident. (I know you weren't saying this is what you thought it was, just...it seems silly that anyone would think that)

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

So why did no one get riled up about Eva constantly getting tortured and molested in mgs3? Why did no one complain that the boss had her baby cut out of her leaving a horrible scar all so she could continue fighting?

Because nobody with a popular youtube account complained about those things and that's really all this is, people with second and third hand information from a Nerd3 video coming out for some moral posturing.

Wait what!?!

AGAIN.

I DID NOT DO ANY MORAL POSTURING.

I wanted talk about the story and hear people's opinion's and talk about Nerd3's opinion since he pointed something out to me. THAT'S IT. What the hell dude!??!

I wasn't referring to you specifically.

Step away from the keyboard.

Relax.

Stop using caps lock so much.

The keyboard warrior in me came out a little there. My bad! I can be defensive sometimes...

 

[Fsyco]

You should really pick up PW. It's a great game, and very story heavy. Kinda arcadey, though. Personally, I like that, but I could see how it's not everyone's cup of tea.

I can see your point. I've also heard some people say that it's kind of gross that Paz's rape is being used solely to give the male hero some heroic motivation. I'd heard it massively hyped up about how they were rapin' errbody out here, so actually listening to it was quite underwhelming.

...Eh?

I don't think it's focused at Big Boss at all. As mentioned, the last time he saw Paz, she stole his Metal Gear, tried to kill everyone in his organization (who had become like a family to him), and nuke the US. I don't see why he'd give much of a shit what happened to her. See also: Kaz immediately attempting to strangle Pacifica the first time he saw her after the incident. (I know you weren't saying this is what you thought it was, just...it seems silly that anyone would think that)

Well I know all the major plot points now, don't I? Actually I just read about them since I was really not interested in playing Peace Walker, don't feel like you've spoiled the experience. Maybe I'll play it later (I have the Legacy collection).

I can sort of see where those people are coming from, but I largely agree with you. I suppose the debate about this kind of thing has been done to death at this point though, so I don't see much of a reason to poke that particular wasp nest.

 

[TheMigrantSoldier]

"War is hell" and all that. I think my only problem with the segment was how bluntly it was handled, just to establish how eeeeeevvviiilll this skull guy is. Seriously, whenever the creator of something wants the audience to hate a villain, they turn him into a rapist (or racist, for that matter).

 

[Fsyco]

"War is hell" and all that. I think my only problem with the segment was how bluntly it was handled, just to establish how eeeeeevvviiilll this skull guy is. Seriously, whenever the creator of something wants the audience to hate a villain, they turn him into a rapist (or racist, for that matter).

Or pedophile. Don't forget pedophiles. It's one of those go-to things that's shorthand for "Dis guy b super ebils yo" so they don't have to write an actual character.
(Bonus points if anyone recognizes my avatar).

 

[Kopikatsu]

Well I know all the major plot points now, don't I? Actually I just read about them since I was really not interested in playing Peace Walker, don't feel like you've spoiled the experience. Maybe I'll play it later (I have the Legacy collection).

I can sort of see where those people are coming from, but I largely agree with you. I suppose the debate about this kind of thing has been done to death at this point though, so I don't see much of a reason to poke that particular wasp nest.

Eh, Metal Gear has never been big on shocking twists (And even when it has them, it often makes no sense even in context. Like, it could be argued Raiden's actions in MGS2 never took place because the entire thing is a VR sim..and there's even evidence to back that crackpot theory up) Usually the plot just plays out to it's logical conclusion (As logical as a series with photosynethic snipers and mooing bipedal tanks gets anyway).

'sides, the existence of MGSV more or less spoils Peace Walker, since Paz is there because of her actions in PW.

"War is hell" and all that. I think my only problem with the segment was how bluntly it was handled, just to establish how eeeeeevvviiilll this skull guy is. Seriously, whenever the creator of something wants the audience to hate a villain, they turn him into a rapist (or racist, for that matter).

Or pedophile. Don't forget pedophiles. It's one of those go-to things that's shorthand for "Dis guy b super ebils yo" so they don't have to write an actual character.
(Bonus points if anyone recognizes my avatar).

Pedo finder attorney general or something? It's been a long time since I saw that clip.