MGS2 Sexual Objectification?

[Lightknight]

In MGS1, there's a sequence where you have to identify your (female) contact by staring at the asses of the patrolling soldiers as you search for the *ahem* shapeliest one.

Oh is that how most people do it?

To clarify things for the few people that won't have played MGS there are actually at least three equally valid and intentional ways to tell Meryl apart from other guards:

1. Watch for hip movement in first person
2. Hide and see who uses the ladies toilet
3. Choke each guard and see who has the higher pitched grunt

I always used the choke hold since it seemed like the quickest way.

Exactly.

Just like in real life, women often walk differently than men due to a wider pelvic angle required for child bearing. It is not sexist to design a female character's walk to mimic the walk of a real female. Same with the shape of the ass which is also frequently different than the male counterpart.

This isn't rocket science. It's actually even one easy way to tell the difference between a male or female skeleton.

 

[Albetta]

Sexual objectification requires the person being objectified to actually be a person. Not to be an object (even intellectual compilations of 1s and 0s). You cannot objectify and object. It is already an object. You can personify an object and then simulate objectification, but you cannot actually objectify it. Now, if A.I. ever becomes a thing then we can alter this discussion. But as is, these objects do not have dignity, they do not suffer embarrassment or joy or anything. Making them attractive is no more harmful than making a nude statue or drawing breasts on a vase.

I'm glad someone posted this, because I just came back to this thread and was about to say the same thing to some of the comments above. I don't have any problem with a character being sexualized in fiction, but I am very conscientious of people's feelings and emotions in real life. Often I am the mediator in arguments among my friends. It is nonsense to assume that games create a culture of sexual objectification, or reinforce it in any way. If you have problems delineating between fiction and reality, then you're psychological problems stem from a much deeper place than the vidya.

That being said, I think that there are places where sexualization is inappropriate. Not because it is "wrong" or "immoral", but because it clashes with a game's suspension of disbelief. There are sexy skins in games like LoL, because those games make no effort to build a coherent universe, and are perfectly ok with scantily clad barbarian chicks, or wacky rickety wooden mech walkers. If, however, I saw a scantily clad barbarian chick in, lets say, Skyrim, it would throw me for a bit of a loop. I wouldn't find it sexist or distasteful, simply out of place in a game that goes out of its way to feel real and tangible.

As one of my art teachers once said, "Nothing has to be realistic, just believable."

That is the pact made between entertainment media and the viewer. Is the Hulk realistic? Absolutely not. A twelve ton green man rippling with corded muscles is silly, but when we watch him rampage onscreen, he is believable within the context established. What context in LoL, or Soul Caliber, or Metroid, or Tomb Raider, or Dead or Alive invalidates the believability of the design of it's inhabiting characters, or should I say caricatures (as I believe most characters in media are)?

 

[Maximum Bert]

The game says she is uninterested in sex and then has her look and act like a dominatrix. Something is off with that. A person can dress how they want. A character need a damn reason.

When does the game say she is uninterested in sex? maybe it was a line somewhere but I dont remember any characters sexual orientation coming up in the games although some is implied from the story i.e Sophitia has children. To be fair I think they did a good job with Ivy as it seems no one forgets her once they see her although strangely somehow people forget Voldo how is that possible lol. Dont expect them to tie themselves to practicality fighters have to get the character across from just their appearance and style the essence of the game is beating the crap out of each other story and character development have very little place in most. Essentially SCs story is magic sword everyone wants magic sword and to make everyone standout you populate it with extreme characters. I always thought of Ivy as a blatant dominatrix character with her revealing standard outfit and whip sword although her alt costume is much more frilly and concealing to pay homage to her aristocratic upbringing although its probably even less suited to fighting in reality if you wanted to be pedantic.

I am not calling it the cancer killing the industry. I am calling it lazy. I'm calling it bad. I'm calling it shit. Laziness and childishness are perhaps "killing" the industry, but this is just one facet of that.

I disagree on it being lazy and bad they created a well designed memorable character that stands out and thats what they needed to do as for childishness thats really down to individual perspective usually I find it used when someone tries to shoot down something they disagree with but cant find why. seriously though not every game needs or indeed benefits from having things like sensible (by our worlds perspective) designs or indeed even a story in a lot of genres as long as it sets up the action it does not matter even if it is in a very simple way.

Also sorry for taking your quotes slightly out of context I know you were replying to other posts when you wrote those I was just trying to cut down on space and Im sure you remember what you were talking about anyway.

OT: It could be seen as sexual objectification or it could just be seen as a guy in the buff that you can make do silly things I do agree though that if Raiden was female and it was released today it would be very amusing to listen to the fallout.

Seriously.... what is wrong with sexual objectification ? Can someone tell me ?

Its bad dont do it hope that helps Its the topic atm as violence needs a rest and ofc it has still not been proven to effect people in the real world so this is the new way to demonise games although im sure there is a tiny minority who give a shit one way or the other. I also find it weird that a power fantasy is somehow better than partaking in sexual objectification in a game both are fake and surely both are just as purile. I am not sure what people are expecting though if games stopped sexual objectification they would somehow magically be better? or more excepted? I just want people to make desicions that benefit the game in some it pays to make stupid characters in others it doesnt they should not be thinking hmmm lets make or not make this character sexually objectified or worry that about such issues at all.

 

[JagermanXcell]

EDIT:

Spoiler

If anyone wonders what sexulization looks like lol

The blog pic is hilarious and all but did you find any on Senator Armstrong's butt?
It's for... research...

Ask and you shall recive my friend.

Spoiler

edit: Bonus pic

Spoiler

Also a song
http://yukonthunderclutch.tumblr.com/post/100654447330/kazuyagoddamnmishima-wellllp-my-life-is

AAAAAAW YES DOUBLE ARMSTRONG, Assess to Assess motherf**ker!... uh, I mean.... thankyouverymuch.

 

[Fappy]

why does it have to be in the current rend that's sadly going on in the gaming topics?

Because people want to talk about it?

I don't know, just making wild guesses here.

 

[TheArcaneThinker]

Seriously.... what is wrong with sexual objectification ? Can someone tell me ?

It reduces a person to an object. That's generally regarded as bad.

However, I suspect that you're not really asking what's wrong with objectification, but what's wrong with fanservice. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with fanservice, it's just that video games go so over the top with fanservice that the character is nothing but sex appeal. Hell, even THAT wouldn't be so bad, if not for the fact that that describes the vast majority of female characters in gaming. Males in games are almost completely defined by what makes them unique, and they're well represented in pretty much every character type, and in the rare instance where they are objectified, it's easy to overlook because it doesn't represent a major problem with the industry. Females in games aren't represented nearly as well, and it's easier to find a stripper than a well-realized character who is also female.

TL;DR: Sexual objectification would actually be somewhat tolerable if it wasn't so ubiquitous.

Why is it regarded as bad ? i do not that it is degrading in any way but that might be due to the fact that i have a open mind as i am of the opinion that games should pleasing to women as well as men equally and developers should try to add just as much stuff there is for men to see for women too so both of them can find games fun in a new way.

If I may jump in...

It is degrading because it reduces a character down to one thing. Try to put yourself in the following shoes; lets assume you went to school and worked your butt off for good grades. You went to college and became a master in your chosen field. You're smart, capable, and a great guy to boot. Maybe you're the type who always has the right thing to say, and can lighten even the darkest of moods; just a joy to be around. But you also have a large tool in your pants, and that is all anyone ever seems to care about. You can't get a job in your field because nobody takes you seriously, and instead insist you show off your package. When you go into the public eye you are all but demanded to dress provocatively. And forget about your personality; you never get any speaking lines except flirting. For all intents and purposes everything you are, everything that makes you...well you, has been ignored and thrown away. You, as a human being, don't matter. Nobody cares. All you are is a big d**k to be shown off for the enjoyment of countless nameless and faceless strangers.

Wouldn't you feel a bit degraded by that?

Yes but that is in real life what we are talking about here is fictional characters , that too in games and yes if such a thing did affect me or any person , it would be quite bad but in video games , i like to see all type of characters , strone ones , crazy ones , good looking ones , and what i think about them in the game does not affect any person i meet in real life.

Well the argument (and I don't necessarily agree on all points) is that these characters are supposed to represent people, and as such designing them in a degrading or disrespectful manner is indicative of real life disrespect for that type of person. I'm not sure I agree with that myself, but I do agree with the other half of the argument; games need higher quality to evolve, and part of having good stories in games is having good characters.

I'm not "against" these types of characters because they are eye-candy, and neither do I think that having these characters in games will alter my perception of women in real life (although I freely admit that I believe if a girl does a true-to-source Cammy or similar cosplay at some convention she WANTS that attention. I mean maybe it's just me; but the only reason to wear a thong is to have people look at your ass), however I am a fan of games with stories, the more depth the better. And a part of that is having good, interesting, multidimensional, deep characters. So while I don't object to the occasional eye-candy fighting sex-doll, I do prefer the characters in these games be a bit more than just a jiggle physics tech demo.

I completely agree on what you said . Games need more diversity , better stories and more thoughtful subjects and also believe serialization of characters should be lowered to a much lesser degree than it is now and instead given a back story or a better personality but to remove it completely is like saying action movies should not be made because most of them are too straight and simple . Everything has its place and each thing in its own way helps to enhance the overall experience.

 

[Lightknight]

Sexual objectification requires the person being objectified to actually be a person. Not to be an object (even intellectual compilations of 1s and 0s). You cannot objectify and object. It is already an object. You can personify an object and then simulate objectification, but you cannot actually objectify it. Now, if A.I. ever becomes a thing then we can alter this discussion. But as is, these objects do not have dignity, they do not suffer embarrassment or joy or anything. Making them attractive is no more harmful than making a nude statue or drawing breasts on a vase.

I'm glad someone posted this, because I just came back to this thread and was about to say the same thing to some of the comments above. I don't have any problem with a character being sexualized in fiction, but I am very conscientious of people's feelings and emotions in real life. Often I am the mediator in arguments among my friends. It is nonsense to assume that games create a culture of sexual objectification, or reinforce it in any way. If you have problems delineating between fiction and reality, then you're psychological problems stem from a much deeper place than the vidya.

That being said, I think that there are places where sexualization is inappropriate. Not because it is "wrong" or "immoral", but because it clashes with a game's suspension of disbelief. There are sexy skins in games like LoL, because those games make no effort to build a coherent universe, and are perfectly ok with scantily clad barbarian chicks, or wacky rickety wooden mech walkers. If, however, I saw a scantily clad barbarian chick in, lets say, Skyrim, it would throw me for a bit of a loop. I wouldn't find it sexist or distasteful, simply out of place in a game that goes out of its way to feel real and tangible.

As one of my art teachers once said, "Nothing has to be realistic, just believable."

That is the pact made between entertainment media and the viewer. Is the Hulk realistic? Absolutely not. A twelve ton green man rippling with corded muscles is silly, but when we watch him rampage onscreen, he is believable within the context established. What context in LoL, or Soul Caliber, or Metroid, or Tomb Raider, or Dead or Alive invalidates the believability of the design of it's inhabiting characters, or should I say caricatures (as I believe most characters in media are)?

Yes, as far as this issue goes, coherency within the context of the game is what's important. A game about girls playing beach volley ball? Sure, that's the context they belong in. One female troop with chainmail bikini? That would require a very particular sort of context to be viable.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

The game says she is uninterested in sex and then has her look and act like a dominatrix. Something is off with that. A person can dress how they want. A character need a damn reason.

When does the game say she is uninterested in sex? maybe it was a line somewhere but I dont remember any characters sexual orientation coming up in the games although some is implied from the story i.e Sophitia has children. To be fair I think they did a good job with Ivy as it seems no one forgets her once they see her although strangely somehow people forget Voldo how is that possible lol. Dont expect them to tie themselves to practicality fighters have to get the character across from just their appearance and style the essence of the game is beating the crap out of each other story and character development have very little place in most. Essentially SCs story is magic sword everyone wants magic sword and to make everyone standout you populate it with extreme characters. I always thought of Ivy as a blatant dominatrix character with her revealing standard outfit and whip sword although her alt costume is much more frilly and concealing to pay homage to her aristocratic upbringing although its probably even less suited to fighting in reality if you wanted to be pedantic.

I'm only finding it on TvTropes. Apparently she doesn't want to have a soul edge influenced child. So she runs around dressed up like a Dominatrix. And at what point did I bring up practicality? She fights with a whip sword, practicality is out the window. I am just irritated that they give a character all these traits solely to titillate and then never have the character actually act like they have these traits. Ivy never actually sexually dominates, she just acts like she does. It's stupid. How hard would it be for them to have her actually have sex with other characters? It wouldn't. But they don't fucking care. They're lazy fetishists.

I am not calling it the cancer killing the industry. I am calling it lazy. I'm calling it bad. I'm calling it shit. Laziness and childishness are perhaps "killing" the industry, but this is just one facet of that.

I disagree on it being lazy and bad they created a well designed memorable character that stands out and thats what they needed to do as for childishness thats really down to individual perspective usually I find it used when someone tries to shoot down something they disagree with but cant find why. seriously though not every game needs or indeed benefits from having things like sensible (by our worlds perspective) designs or indeed even a story in a lot of genres as long as it sets up the action it does not matter even if it is in a very simple way.

Also sorry for taking your quotes slightly out of context I know you were replying to other posts when you wrote those I was just trying to cut down on space and Im sure you remember what you were talking about anyway.

Memorability doesn't take effort and it doesn't make a character good. Prequel Anikain is memorable. He also sucks, and this suck is the result of lazy writing. Other M's Samus is memorable, but also a product of lazy and terrible writing.

 

[Bad Jim]

In MGS2 there is a cutscene in which Raiden is tied up, naked, and tortured. He then escapes, naked, covering his genitals with his hands, and proceeds to run through the facility. At this point, the player can do a "summersault" move to avoid the attention of soldiers and guards. Is this sexual objectification? Is it pure fetish material, devoid of any contribution to the story or gameplay? What would be the reaction if this same sequence happened to a female character?

Wouldn't that kind of prove that the only people getting mad about sexual objectification are the people against the objectification of only female characters? It looks hypocritical to me.

There is no point in Anita holding it up and saying "guys this game is bad".

1) Fans hated MGS2 anyway. In particular, they hated Raiden.

2) The game is over a decade old, and people only ever buy it because it is part of a collection of better MGS games.

Anitas' efforts are better focused on games which are current or particularly bad.

 

[Roofstone]

No.. It is funny.

That is about it really. It is kinda funny. They make jokes.
And he gets a cold. Which is less funny.

 

[Someone Depressing]

It's Metal Gear. It wouldn't be Metal Gear without all of the nudity, asses, and sex jokes, be their targets male or female. It's sexual comedy, and that's that.

I didn't like Raiden's character, but he sure did have an incredibly in depth, detailed one.

I thought equality was looking past someone's physical appearance, not getting strung up on it and throwing vaguely controversial words around like children.

A) A character who has a defined and/or detailed backstory, personality, and conflict. They also happen to be shirtless/their modesty is protected by wishful thinking/the yaoi Gods move in mysterious ways/whatever way Japanese schoolgirls are being appealed to so games are purchased. Not objectification.

B) A character is bland, boring, their backstory is stupid or doesn't fit into the story. Nothing likable them. Take the second sentence from the above paragraph. Objectification.

I have since repressed most memories of Raiden and his stupid pretty face, but quickly rereading bits and pieces of the plot reveals that, yep, it fits. The director's goal was to have this scene make players go "Haha, Snake wouldn't end up in this situation.... But Raiden is. Because Raiden isn't very good at his job. Such wit. Charles, where's my tea?" or something like that.

Yet somehow, this keeps happening.

Q: Your game has breasts?
A: Yes. Many. Approximately two per female character.
Q: *gasp* YOU SEXIST OBJECTIFYING CHAUVINISTIC PIG IM TAKING THIS TO SARKEESIAN AND SHES GONA BURN UR ASS

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Is Raiden sexually objectified in MGS2?

1) Yes >>>> and? So what if he is? Why does it matter?
2) No >>>> and? So what if he isn't? Why does it matter?

 

[Maximum Bert]

*snip*
I'm only finding it on TvTropes. Apparently she doesn't want to have a soul edge influenced child. So she runs around dressed up like a Dominatrix. And at what point did I bring up practicality? She fights with a whip sword, practicality is out the window. I am just irritated that they give a character all these traits solely to titillate and then never have the character actually act like they have these traits. Ivy never actually sexually dominates, she just acts like she does. It's stupid. How hard would it be for them to have her actually have sex with other characters? It wouldn't. But they don't fucking care. They're lazy fetishists.

Ah yeah because Cervantes is her father and as such she does not want his bloodline to continue but just to play devils advocate sex doesnt automatically mean childbirth many want sex but dont necessarily want a kid. As for her being there largely to titillate well er yeah I would agree as far as acting like she has these traits well a lot of her moves involve whipping and she laughs a bit freakishly and says stuff like dance for me while attacking with certain moves bit paper thin I would agree but its a fighter thats pretty much what you get.

I really dont know what to say to the last bit though how hard would it be for them to make her actually have sex with other characters er well I guess it wouldnt but seriously if I bought SC (a fighting game) I would not expect any characters to actually get off in game and really if they did that would make it ok for you? you would be like thankgod that character who dresses like a dominatrix is actually engaging in sexual activity they are not just lazy fetishists? I suppose the closest they get is showing she takes some degree of pleasure sexual or otherwise in dominating and defeating her opponents in a fight sort of a pain and pleasure thing I suppose. Really though Im not interested in exploring a characters sexual drives in a fighting game im sure if I wanted there are other games catered towards that though.

Im not sure that you are wanting then to introduce sex to the game but the way you wrote that makes it sound like you are upset and angered that they did not...because her appearance would suggest she should engage in these activities either visually or at least be heavily implied to do so?

Memorability doesn't take effort and it doesn't make a character good. Prequel Anikain is memorable. He also sucks, and this suck is the result of lazy writing. Other M's Samus is memorable, but also a product of lazy and terrible writing.

Dont look for good writing in a fighter its not what they are about or concerned with but I will say those other characters were already established and then were ruined by subsequent efforts (in some players eyes). Ivy and indeed pretty much any fighting game character ever was/is not designed as a deep character they are superficial they personify a few traits and only have enough personality to be able to connect with on a very simple level like Mario in Super Mario Bros. Memorability does take effort your fooling yourself if you think otherwise its hard to make someone stand out in people minds Ivy really does seem to have done that for a lot of people I will agree though that alone does not make a good character but I really feel they achieved what they wanted in Ivys character basically a sexy looking dominatrix post aristocratic maturing woman with a unique fighting style. Then again I did not read the design brief maybe they wanted a demure business woman design in which case Ivy is a massive failure in that regards.

How would you personally make a strong memorable character with almost no writing to aid you? and no you cant tell a silent story by using different images basically all you get is a character to design both looks and moves a few intro and outro quips and a blerb on their backstory which most wont read. How would you do that without making them characetured in any way?

 

[Albetta]

Is Raiden sexually objectified in MGS2?

1) Yes >>>> and? So what if he is? Why does it matter?
2) No >>>> and? So what if he isn't? Why does it matter?

That's exactly the conversation I was hoping to have!

 

[WindKnight]

Is Raiden sexually objectified in MGS2?

1) Yes >>>> and? So what if he is? Why does it matter?
2) No >>>> and? So what if he isn't? Why does it matter?

Well, we could compare it to way the game sexualy objectifies female characters...

Such as Jennifer, the hostage you can shoot with a tranquilizer gun so you can look up her skirt and take a photo of her panties.

 

[teh_Canape]

I don't know if it's sexist but it sounds fucking stupid.

are you talking about raiden being naked?
because it's not stupid, it has a meaning and a reason to be there
it very much needs to be there

now, the raiden lookalike in MGS3? yeah I'll give you that one

 

[Brain Tumor]

In MGS2 there is a cutscene in which Raiden is tied up, naked, and tortured. He then escapes, naked, covering his genitals with his hands, and proceeds to run through the facility. At this point, the player can do a "summersault" move to avoid the attention of soldiers and guards. Is this sexual objectification? Is it pure fetish material, devoid of any contribution to the story or gameplay? What would be the reaction if this same sequence happened to a female character?

Wouldn't that kind of prove that the only people getting mad about sexual objectification are the people against the objectification of only female characters? It looks hypocritical to me.

There is no point in Anita holding it up and saying "guys this game is bad".

1) Fans hated MGS2 anyway. In particular, they hated Raiden.

2) The game is over a decade old, and people only ever buy it because it is part of a collection of better MGS games.

Anitas' efforts are better focused on games which are current or particularly bad.

That is the thing though, she is taking issue with the entire industry right? Then any and every game should be able to be pulled into the conversation. You don't get to just pick and choose which one fits your agenda.

To your 1 & 2. Those are your opinions, not actual fact. You do not speak for every person that enjoys MGS games. I happen to enjoy MGS2 and even though Raiden wasn't as cool a character as Snake, I didn't take much issue because he controlled exactly the same. Also, that has nothing to do with the supposed sexual objectification.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I don't know if it's sexist but it sounds fucking stupid.

are you talking about raiden being naked?
because it's not stupid, it has a meaning and a reason to be there
it very much needs to be there

I don't know what that is but I saw this image and decided it had to be a stupid one.

 

[Bad Jim]

That is the thing though, she is taking issue with the entire industry right? Then any and every game should be able to be pulled into the conversation. You don't get to just pick and choose which one fits your agenda.

She has to pick and choose. She cannot possibly critique them all. I know she's a bit slow about releasing those videos, but she couldn't comment on all games even if she released videos daily.