Minding Your Language

[Anomynous 167]

No opinion... Just no opinion.

eeeexxxxxcccept when I first clicked on the thread I thought it was suppost to be about an old british show called "Mind Your Language".
THAT REMINDS ME!
Gotta book in sunday night watching the Comedy Channel.

 

[Incredible Bullshitting Man]

As it just now occurs to me that I'm answering my own thread for the first time.

Once in a while, it´s nice to talk to someone who really understands you, isn´t it.

Not particularly. I think that NewClassic prick is a little too pretentiously self-absorbed to provide any suitable discourse for these forums.

Now that was just uncalled-for. Go and apologize.

 

[Saskwach]

I oppose over-elaborate language for the same reason Orwell did: 99% of the time such language isn't needed to say what you mean with the fewest words - in other words, it's unnecessary and hence used to be pretentious.
Or to present my arguments in a manner somewhat less befitting my ambitions of elucidation without elaboration, in the vast majority of cases the extensive use of overly baroque vocabulary serves only to confound where it should explain; it casts a fog over its meaning, allowing the speaker to deny any solid conclusion even to his own cogitation; it lends profundity to vapidity. In short, it permits an otherwise average thought to seem grand through equal measures occlusion and false polish; and it serves only, in the final analysis, to establish the credentials of the author of that mediocre insight as, if you will allow me the opportunity to stoop to crudity, a pretentious ************ who clearly feels it more fucking important to look smart than to actually be smart - and to communicate those smart ideas to others efficiently and completely.

Read [http://orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit]

 

[NewClassic_v1legacy]

I'm going to go ahead and reorient this thread to the topic at hand.

I do wonder on occasion in my particular brand of superfluous (if not personally pleasingly elegant) goes over individuals' heads without me knowing as much. Being the child of a native Spanish-speaker, I wonder if I ever use any particular English expression or grammatical intricacy that goes over his head. Which is an absurd prospect considering he's been speaking English as his primarily-spoken language for years longer than I've been alive.

I still wonder if I don't befuddle certain persons on occasion if only because of my estranged use of unconventional language. Though I find more confusion comes from my unusual expressionistic quirks than any particular word choice, so I could be analyzing that result from the wrong stimulus. Ah well, who knows?

 

[Lord Krunk]

I wish I was more like you.

By the way, can I have a link?

Haha. Nah, you don't. Not really.

Enjoy. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.85645#1250686]

I'll take your word for it.

It's a shame that so many people didn't get the joke, but then again, most of the people who called you out for all the wrong reasons were newcomers, explaining that fact.
However, Jim_Doki and Qayin had some solid points.

 

[Lord Krunk]

As it just now occurs to me that I'm answering my own thread for the first time.

Once in a while, it´s nice to talk to someone who really understands you, isn´t it.

Not particularly. I think that NewClassic prick is a little too pretentiously self-absorbed to provide any suitable discourse for these forums.

Not the NewClassic we all know and love! Bite your tongue, sir!

However, I am glad that you removed those kitten links; many annoying imitators followed in your wake.

 

[P1p3s]

For me I think (and I hate to sound like a snob but I think I probably will here) we have lost so much grace and power from the english language. I have always thought it important to have a large vocabulary because the ability to express yourself should surely be easier with more words at your disposal.

To bring this into context, think of your vocabulary as your ammo count, you are usually more successful in your aims of (destruction mainly) completing a level if you have more ammo.

I find it deeply frstrating listening to people who have no grasp of basic communications. I've talking about Chavs mainly whose linguistic peak seems to be variatious inflections on their grunting.

But to relate to the OP I've found I have had to 'simplify' my language because I can't be understood! I don't think for a second that these people are less intelligent than me or less capable they just dont have the range. I have often wondered how it's possible for them to have any meaningful connections with other human beings when they lack the ability to express themselves in detail.

I see alot of the 'anti social' behaviour of these types of people as much akin to toddlers tantrums. Children of about 2-4 lack the sufficent language skills to express all of the thoughts they are developing. They are far more cognitively sentient but are trapped in their tiny, frustrating, communicationless world. I wonder if it's those same feelings contribute to overly aggressive nature of adults with poor communications skills.

 

[Saskwach]

One of the standout passages from my above link, proving my point perfectly:

"Now that I have made this catalogue of swindles and perversions, let me give another example of the kind of writing that they lead to. This time it must of its nature be an imaginary one. I am going to translate a passage of good English into modern English of the worst sort. Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes:

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Here it is in modern English:

Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.

This is a parody, but not a very gross one. Exhibit (3) above, for instance, contains several patches of the same kind of English. It will be seen that I have not made a full translation. The beginning and ending of the sentence follow the original meaning fairly closely, but in the middle the concrete illustrations ? race, battle, bread ? dissolve into the vague phrases ?success or failure in competitive activities?. This had to be so, because no modern writer of the kind I am discussing ? no one capable of using phrases like ?objective considerations of contemporary phenomena? ? would ever tabulate his thoughts in that precise and detailed way. The whole tendency of modern prose is away from concreteness. Now analyze these two sentences a little more closely. The first contains forty-nine words but only sixty syllables, and all its words are those of everyday life. The second contains thirty-eight words of ninety syllables: eighteen of those words are from Latin roots, and one from Greek. The first sentence contains six vivid images, and only one phrase (?time and chance?) that could be called vague. The second contains not a single fresh, arresting phrase, and in spite of its ninety syllables it gives only a shortened version of the meaning contained in the first. Yet without a doubt it is the second kind of sentence that is gaining ground in modern English. I do not want to exaggerate. This kind of writing is not yet universal, and outcrops of simplicity will occur here and there in the worst-written page. Still, if you or I were told to write a few lines on the uncertainty of human fortunes, we should probably come much nearer to my imaginary sentence than to the one from Ecclesiastes."

I dare anyone to say the second passage is more beautiful English than the second.
George Orwell, I love thee.

 

[Sennz0r]

I do dumb down my English when speaking to people who wouldn't be able to understand me if I didn't. However I don't dumb it down on the forums. Everyone seems to be able to get the gist of what I'm trying to say so I don't see why I should. Not that my language needs dumbing down in the slightest because I'm not too eloquent in both speech and writing.

I do however find myself looking for synonyms to words instead of their mundane counterparts when posting on these forums. You have the time to think when you type so you might as well, right?

 

[SenseOfTumour]

I don't consider myself an intellectual, but I do read a fair amount, and I enjoy QI, and (althought the topic isn't about swearing, it's relevant, I feel) when I'm out in public and I see people using profanities as a replacement for verbal punctuation, its not... offensive, but just a little demoralising that I have to share a planet with them.

But then I see myself as somewhere in the centre, a little up the scale from the Sun readers but not a Times reader. For instance I do feel sometimes language can be used pretentiously and unnecessarily, for instance I have a friend who'll not shout 'FIRE!' if he can say 'conflagration' and it , to put an intellectual angle on the event, gets on my tits.

Again slightly off topic, I remember him being asked at a party what a mp3 is by an older, less techy person, and he starts going off about mpeg processing layer level 2, and I overhear and step in and say, 'oh mp3s, they're just music but stored in a computer instead of on a disc.' Now, technically, he was more accurate, but I used language to give the poor guy the small bit of info he wanted without making him want to stab me. Thing is, he's damn close to a genius, especially technically, I just wish he had the ability to, well, scale himself down to interact with regular people.

Its like if I'm in a slightly rough pub, I'll keep the long words to a minimum, as without wishing to appear rude, if you confuse a drunk thick person, they tend to react with not a witty putdown, but a fisty putdown, and its hard to theorize quantum physics without any teeth.

Short version, thick people annoy me, and smart people need to quit showing off.

Oh and when it comes to posting, I do seem to go back and edit myself if I find I've used the same word a few times, and scatter some new ones in, so it doesn't feel like I'm repeating myself.

 

[Fire Daemon]

I type as I speak, meaning that I say whatever sounds natural at the time. I never have and most likely never will go out of my way to use the biggest and most intelligent sounding word I can think of unless writing a creative piece that calls for it. Besides, I find it very easy to know when people use intelligent words for the sole purpose of looking intelligent. It is usually when they take a long time to say nothing, I couldn't force intelligent words in my posts, everyone would be able to see through it quite clearly. I much prefer when people are straight and up front with their word choice, shows they aren't trying to impress other people... I feel you can trust these people and believe what they are saying.

The problem with posting what ever sounds natural at the time often leaves me feeling like an idiot after seeing one of my posts. The posts I make at the early hours of the morning (thats right, I'm here at 2 AM sometimes) are nothing more than utter crap because I post like someone falling asleep at their computer. I would wager that most of you think the same about me. I can remember a couple of times where I thought about making every post a piece of artwork but then, assuming I do post, everything I say would be a lie. I would fine tune and shine my post so much that it'll stop reflecting myself. I would only show off the perfect Fire Daemon, the Fire Daemon that never makes a mistake and never says something stupid in a stupid way. That is not the Fire Daemon I want to show other people, I don't want people on the Internet to think that I'm something I'm not, I have no idea why but people pretending, even over the tubes, to be something else really irks me.

The irony of course is that I'm a very different person when in the flesh. That can't be helped though, everyone is different in some way on the Internet.

 

[Hey Joe]

Oooh, a language thread.

You know, perhaps the best example of language melding to the needs of the recipients of the discourse is sports reporting. I know, wierd right? You see, coming from the school of journalism I've made a quasi-career in making my language as easy to read as possible, and nowhere does this apply better than sports reporting.

I'm not saying people who read sport reports are quite dumb, but there is a discourse surrounding the lexicon of sport and those who break it jarr upon reading their words. I remember when I started out as a Hockey Match Reporter and I read the reports of the previous reporter as to get some sort of guide. I remember getting quite angry about the fact the reporter had written "They acheived an equaliser" which is actually correct, but just sounds completely...naff.

Instead, when you can write things like 'they struck back in quick time' or 'levelled things up' even though they make very little grammatical sense.

But back to the observations of the OP. There, in language, is a time and a place for every discourse. The nature of the discourse generally drives the level of language. If you use superfluous and fancy language to discuss the merits of 50 cent, it's going to sound quite odd. If you're going to use street to disseminate Descartes then it's going to sound quite odd.

Words, in the ned, are merely vehicles for ideas. It is the value of ideas which dictates the inherent intelligence of a passage of language, but admiring the construction of a sentence adhering to formal constructions is akin to admiring the aesthetic value of a film.

It is fun to have a discussion about the various technical aspects, but that does not indicate the quality of the film. In the end, the meaning of the thing will stand it in good stead, not the technical aspects.

So, in my humble opinion the beauty of the words and constructions themselves are secondary to the meaning behind them. That's my two cents anyhow.

As to the discussion prompt, I do believe it is quite possible to alter one's language to suit one's audience. I'm hoping to make a living from it. You just need to ask any Australian male with an extensive vocabulary if they can, and they will answer in the affirmative.

Because, when we come up against 'dinky-di, true blue, blokes' we do alter our language and respond to their language by talking in cliche's, with an added twang.

 

[Duck Sandwich]

Occasionally, I'll use phrases that aren't complicated, but not common either, such as, "quite very well fortified," and "I am a slave to two masters." I feel it's part of my personality, as I've often been known as an eloquent speaker. Also, I often feel that such language is the most fitting language I use for conveying what I'm trying to say in certain situations.

 

[Charli]

Well yes, I have a pretty wide vocabulary level within the english language it would be a crying shame 'not' to use it creatively when you need to express some kind of dismay or anger in place of a vulgur obsenity. I may even use the two in conjunction at times. All things in moderation, even language. =)

Which I'm sorry to say which is why we dictionary nerds look down on you F-bomb abusers.
Obviously when I've consumed enough alchohol I diminish into incomplete sentences full of mispronounciations and confusing made up words much to the amusement of my friends. So yes I guess 'big boy language' is good for somthing if you're fairly secure with your self image.

 

[Uncompetative]

Heteroglossia and the floccinaucinihilipilification of your audience's interest in other things than your monologue are best avoided.

 

[Alex_P]

Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.

This is the kind of shit that Derrida would write. Then, if you managed to actually extricate some meaning from it and had anything at all to say in response, he'd turn around and claim that maybe he meant the exact opposite of what you thought and you should go think about it some more.

-- Alex

 

[Andalusa]

It depends what I'm talking about, what company I'm in and how I want my message to come across. So, yes, I suppose.

 

[scotth266]

I occasionally dumb stuff down, but its rather rare. It is nice to use a thesaurus though, as repetition in your post leads to it being ignored.

 

[Sion_Barzahd]

Ever since i was quite young, due to my love for fantasy stories etc. i've had a wide range of words of my disposal.
I do sometimes find that when i talk people look at me like i've started speaking a different language. So in a sense it can sometimes cause a barrier, so i find myself consciously having to limit my turns of phrase and occasional word choice.

Though, once a year i find myself working in my cities fair. When i get behind the walls of my stall and begin serving the customers, i suddenly lose my way of speech and drop to the thickest local accent, even changing words and pronounciations i use.
Though i cannot replicate it willingly and never noticed myself use it elsewhere.

 

[CowboyIkari]

This is my first reply on escapist. (Long time reader first time poster).

This topic was just too good to ignore.

The author of this thread has an extremely good point. Now, as much as I absolutely DESPISE badly written grammar and poor vocabulary (my text messages are all texted in full, text speak must die - it is destroying the English language), I also believe the same to be true for the reverse.

Overdoing it is not really necessary. I'm no English major but I have a good grasp of the language. To be honest, reading the first post on this thread felt like reading a thesis or a fraking lecturer's notes (my tone is not intended to be in any way offensive by the way).

So to keep it relatively short and to answer your question, yes. I do contemplate carefully the words I choose and the order in which I construct my sentences and paragraphs, but not to the extent whereby people will ignore my statement. I'm pretty sure a lot of people stopped reading your post because it felt like too much work.

Besides, single syllable answers and words are much more effective at getting the point across to a wider range of people.

By the way thanks for reading and I'd like to take this opportunity to say Hello to everyone on the forums! I look forward to many discussions in the future