Misogyny or Sexual Persecution? [Update!]

[grassgremlin]

Edit: There are a lot of misconceptions about the topic of this forum, so I would like to present them before you continue posting.

1) I am not stating that all games should have sexual content or suggestive themes. That's entirely subjective, up to the game and it's setting. Check some of my posts for my opinion on this.

2) I'm a feminist and I do believe objectification has become a bit too prevalent in video games. I will happily admit that such content in involving female characters can and should be toned down, especially in mainstream markets. However I think Niche' markets are a different story. Feel free to discuss about that.

3) This article is not about Anita Sarkeesian. While I'm okay with stating your opinion, it is not part of the topic. She may be mentioned, but that's not important.

4) If I have poor grammar, point that out. Please don't be a dick about it though. By, dick, I mean someone who hurls expletives and other colorful language at me because I worded a sentence wrong. I do not get better if I'm being yelled at.

5) I might be wrong about my opinions. Feel free to point that out. As long as your argument has logic and facts and does not rely entirely on your opinion then I'll read carefully and apply as I post.


Now on to the topic.

I will raise a very peculiar question never seemed to be asked in this debate and something brought on by Jim Sterlings videos - Solving the Sexism Situation. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/3150-Solving-the-Sexism-Situation

Now I mulled over the continued hate or harassment towards Anita Sarkeesian trying to find a more "logical" root of it. Many journalists have fling misogynist that the phrase starts to lose meaning. First, let's look at this word with the help of Google's dictionary function.

Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.

How many of you can honestly say that you fit this criteria? Try to be very truthful. Even if the word and the definition feels you with anger try to think rationally based on your own experience.

If some of you denied this, then I post the question and the topic of this thread.
Is the reason why people hate these discussions on feminism and gaming because they are being "sexually persecuted" or feel they are being so?

I can not relate to a heterosexual man, but I can relate to the concept of sexual persecution and it's prevalence mostly in America.

I am a objectify of men. I draw and write porn based on varieties of my own kinks involving men, sometimes women, but mostly men. I will often consume games, as guilty pleasures where I can play or create the sexiest male character. I often wish that developers could provide me with my carnal needs including having outfits which are gender neutral or show as much skin as humanly possible. The thought of a man wearing a chain male bikini is extremely hot to me, according to the male builds I like. I alternate between big muscular men, lithe feminine men or something in between.

The thought of being labeled things like pervert, being ostracized for my sexual urges tick me off. How dare people tell me I can't like what I like? How dare they tell me when I work on a game or comic I can't put as many under-dressed men making out in my game as I fucking want? I don't make games for children, I make grown adult games with all the sexual objectification my heart desires.

Now equate that to current tastes of how games are now. We have a game like Dead or Alive. One could have a filled day with the objectification. Or how about the big boobed sorceress in Dragon's Crown. It was pretty insulting to be compared to the sexual urges of a 12 year old boy. I compare that to me own in some way. Are my urges the same as a very gay 12 year old boy?

I do not think Anita Sarkeesian wants to take away you want and desires, but I've found that some people are upset that despite fitting the criteria of heterosexual men, they are being persecuted because they just so happen to be sexually attracted to women and there purchasing, while not all the time, I'm sure, can be governed by how much fan service or sexual situations are in a product.

I can attest that I don't play Ash Crimson because he's a cool fighting game character. Oh, no, the mountains of rule 34 I've gone through starring that character can vouch that there were much more involved in my choice. He's still cool to play, just fucking hard.

In a perfect world, everyone would have their cheese cake and eat it too.

I may be wrong, but it's a conclusion I've come to, so let's open a discussion for this debate.

 

[Jesterscup]

Firstly I think most people aren't going to identify as misogynist even if they are..

I think at the root of the issue is that both side of this debate come from very different viewpoints.

So if I may, I'd like to put across what may be considered a feminist viewpoint. It is still common ( to the point of being a daily occurrence for a majority of women ) to be exposed to a variety of behaviours that really should be unacceptable. Would you comment on someone you found sexually attractive in the street, or consider making physical contact with them without considering whether they've given permission? would you think it acceptable to be derogatory towards them if they refute any sexual advance? Can you think of a justification for enacting your desires without their consent? Now I would hope not, and I would hope the the majority of people would find all of the above behaviours disgusting.

Yet there still exists a minority significant enough to make this an issue for a large number of people.

So how do we end this? Now I don't have an answer for this, but one argument is that the objectification of women is prevalent throughout our society, and that these help to reinforce the validation that such behaviour is 'ok'. By becoming aware of these objectifications, and how they are repeated you can start to look at how we can make changes, without detracting from the media itself. These tropes are often employed without conscious thought, or awareness.

Lets be clear here, this is not me saying "stop all objectification" "never pander to sexual desires", because well that is censorship, and hell I like erotic media. Sexuality & desire are a cornerstone of what it means to be human, but it is the routine 'disempowerment' of women that is objected to.

Lets take an example: Princess Peach.... is kidnapping her vital to the game? could the story be rewritten in such a way to make her not be the damsel in distress EVERY time. Now I'm not saying we must do this, but the damsel in distress is a common trope, and not just in games, sure it can and should be used, it's a part of our culture, our history. But simply put it's really REALLY over used. You want to put that in a game/story/film/song sure go ahead but be aware of the perceived effects of doing so.

I'm so gonna get flamed for this post. I'm putting across a valid point of view, there are others, on both sides of the debate. Disagree if you must, but accept it's a point of view thats out there. I'm much more interested in finding a common ground.

 

[grassgremlin]

Firstly I think most people aren't going to identify as misogynist even if they are..

I think at the root of the issue is that both side of this debate come from very different viewpoints.

So if I may, I'd like to put across what may be considered a feminist viewpoint. It is still common ( to the point of being a daily occurrence for a majority of women ) to be exposed to a variety of behaviours that really should be unacceptable. Would you comment on someone you found sexually attractive in the street, or consider making physical contact with them without considering whether they've given permission? would you think it acceptable to be derogatory towards them if they refute any sexual advance? Can you think of a justification for enacting your desires without their consent? Now I would hope not, and I would hope the the majority of people would find all of the above behaviours disgusting.

Yet there still exists a minority significant enough to make this an issue for a large number of people.

So how do we end this? Now I don't have an answer for this, but one argument is that the objectification of women is prevalent throughout our society, and that these help to reinforce the validation that such behaviour is 'ok'. By becoming aware of these objectifications, and how they are repeated you can start to look at how we can make changes, without detracting from the media itself. These tropes are often employed without conscious thought, or awareness.

Lets be clear here, this is not me saying "stop all objectification" "never pander to sexual desires", because well that is censorship, and hell I like erotic media. Sexuality & desire are a cornerstone of what it means to be human, but it is the routine 'disempowerment' of women that is objected to.

Lets take an example: Princess Peach.... is kidnapping her vital to the game? could the story be rewritten in such a way to make her not be the damsel in distress EVERY time. Now I'm not saying we must do this, but the damsel in distress is a common trope, and not just in games, sure it can and should be used, it's a part of our culture, our history. But simply put it's really REALLY over used. You want to put that in a game/story/film/song sure go ahead but be aware of the perceived effects of doing so.

I'm so gonna get flamed for this post. I'm putting across a valid point of view, there are others, on both sides of the debate. Disagree if you must, but accept it's a point of view thats out there. I'm much more interested in finding a common ground.

I actually agree 100% with your statement. It's probably because of this that we can't safely have erotic tones in our fiction without some criticism. Because of the unfortunate harassment it's made many of us come off as prudish in some instant. Of course, if you are against any erotic fiction, I have nothing against you. You have your views, I have mine.

For me, I would like things to be settled without the disappearance of sex. There is a such thing as good pandering and the more I can see Nightwings perfect ass the less we half to complain when Spider-Woman's on all fours ass in the air.

Maybe, if I may be bold, society, our society doesn't know how to handle sex. Either that but it's placed into such a taboo manner that people get desperate or sexually repressed. I dunno. That's a shot in the dark. I could get flamed for that statement, right there.

P.S. Cat calls would make anyone uncomfortable.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Not to be That Guy, but its American society placing a taboo on sex.

The rest of the world doesn't really bat an eyelid about boobies and weiners flopping about, but America REALLY has something against anything sexual. Probably something to do with the puritanical beginnings, I dunno, I'm not a sociologist.

It's a natural part of life. By repressing it you make more of a big deal about it.

 

[Jesterscup]

Maybe, if I may be bold, society, our society doesn't know how to handle sex. Either that but it's placed into such a taboo manner that people get desperate or sexually repressed. I dunno. That's a shot in the dark. I could get flamed for that statement, right there.

I agree with this 100% and it is definitely a factor. The irony is that in my experience erotica ( porn films not included ) has less of a problem with these tropes, because when they do it's either conscious & deliberate, or a subversion of said trope ( but yes they still exist in erotica just the same) .

If I may I'd like to take your example of Nightwing & SpiderWoman. To be clear I'm not saying that the following is *always* how this happens, but it is pretty common, and once you're aware of it you notice it everywhere.

If we take Nightwing, and look for sexually provocative images of him most of these are likely to be with him in a strong, powerful even perhaps controlling or dominating stance. Whereas a similar search for Spider-Woman is likely to show her in a weak, vulnerable, controlled or dominated stance. Yes there will be exceptions. Now neither is wrong, but this leads to the 'sexual woman = disempowered woman' concept.

Spoiler: as an example - you've all seen this

Lets look at that for a second, particularly at black widow, is she any less sexy in the bottom picture? And personally I prefer Cap in the bottom one too...

 

[grassgremlin]

Not to be That Guy, but its American society placing a taboo on sex.

The rest of the world doesn't really bat an eyelid about boobies and weiners flopping about, but America REALLY has something against anything sexual. Probably something to do with the puritanical beginnings, I dunno, I'm not a sociologist.

It's a natural part of life. By repressing it you make more of a big deal about it.

I sort of agree with this. Honestly, it's probably that same sexual repression that we have these issues, but it does ask another question. Japan seems to be open with sex if it's manga and video game products are any indication, but, I've heard somewhere that they still have to deal with crimes of sexual assault and other such things.

I wish someone who's well-versed in Japanese culture in this forum can shed some light on the differences between our country and theirs when it comes to the subject of sex.

I will say, we won't get anywhere being prudish no matter what goals we're trying to achieve when it involves sex. You can NOT take away someone's sex drive and I'm sure as heck not interested in a world with that kind of censorship.

I hate the idea of feeling bad for having my porn or fulfilling my carnal interests. That's shame culture, right there.

 

[grassgremlin]

Maybe, if I may be bold, society, our society doesn't know how to handle sex. Either that but it's placed into such a taboo manner that people get desperate or sexually repressed. I dunno. That's a shot in the dark. I could get flamed for that statement, right there.

I agree with this 100% and it is definitely a factor. The irony is that in my experience erotica ( porn films not included ) has less of a problem with these tropes, because when they do it's either conscious & deliberate, or a subversion of said trope ( but yes they still exist in erotica just the same) .

If I may I'd like to take your example of Nightwing & SpiderWoman. To be clear I'm not saying that the following is *always* how this happens, but it is pretty common, and once you're aware of it you notice it everywhere.

If we take Nightwing, and look for sexually provocative images of him most of these are likely to be with him in a strong, powerful even perhaps controlling or dominating stance. Whereas a similar search for Spider-Woman is likely to show her in a weak, vulnerable, controlled or dominated stance. Yes there will be exceptions. Now neither is wrong, but this leads to the 'sexual woman = disempowered woman' concept.

Spoiler: as an example - you've all seen this

Lets look at that for a second, particularly at black widow, is she any less sexy in the bottom picture? And personally I prefer Cap in the bottom one too...

Nightwing is probably the exception when it comes to sexualized super heroes. The man bends on so many ridiculously acrobatic poses just so we can get shots of his spread ass and crotch. Not sure if it makes him look strong. I guess you might be right in that women often pose timidly like pouty porn stars, while guys like Nightwing pose like he's competing in the sexual olympics. Maybe, more girls working the camera? That still opens up another can of worms, not sure if it helps.

 

[Hoplon]

For me, I would like things to be settled without the disappearance of sex. There is a such thing as good pandering and the more I can see Nightwings perfect ass the less we half to complain when Spider-Woman's on all fours ass in the air.

Maybe, if I may be bold, society, our society doesn't know how to handle sex. Either that but it's placed into such a taboo manner that people get desperate or sexually repressed. I dunno. That's a shot in the dark. I could get flamed for that statement, right there.

P.S. Cat calls would make anyone uncomfortable.

Is funny, but in the whole Milo Manara Spiderwoman debacle the only thing that miffed me off was people claiming his artwork sucked and the pose was all wrong. wankers. It had no place on the front of comic book, but he is not a shitty artist.

more on topic it's generally true that advertisers and some game deves horribly misuse sex to sell product and very much bias it towards the male gaze. Honestly i'm kind of tired of being treated like a horn dog that only thinks about sex. It's tiresome what ever the truth of it.

Sex is a part of everyday life, i just don't know what it's doing in a dungeon based loot crawler or a fighting game.

 

[mistahzig1]

One day, your neighbour comes at your house to tell you that during the night, someone broke into her house and took a dump on her living room floor.
Next morning, you wake up to a foul stench coming from your living room and sure enough, big poop on YOUR floor.

Which one will upset you more? Most people would have the same answer, no? But from an outsider view, BOTH are as reprehensible. That's the thing.


I'm not a mysogynist. I'm worse than that. I'm heterosexual.


Of COURSE stereotypical women behaviour will get on my nerves more than stupid stuff men do. I'm biologically forced to pursue relationships with a demographic type that has patterns I cannot relate to. Damn right the endless preparation of women before going out gets on my nerves when I've been waiting 20 minutes at the door and having heard "In a minute!" 20 times. Running late because a buddy is showing me a cool new toy? Not so much.


My point is that it's OKAY to be minimally annoyed at little things like that. It doesn't make someone a sexist bastard.


The whole problem resides in the proverbial Nietzsche's abyss.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you"

When a feminist issue arises within the gaming community for instance, there are real mysogynists who will pounce and harrass the authors. There are others who simply disagree, even some that see the premise as so micro an aspect that it paints the whole movement with the broad brush of their assumptions (abyss, no?).

Guess what happens to some feminists who stared into said abyss for too long? Well, *some* have their whole head stuck far into the abyss of their own ass, and the premise of their position only serves to dismiss legitimate criticism of their view as mysogynistic attacks against them. "I want justice. You are criticising me. That means you do not want justice. Case closed". It's a no-win situation.

Then all gamers are put into the same basket as the real sexist scums, and that pisses off some people. Being dismissed as sexists simply because they do not resonate the echo chamber? Who does that!?

And they start to see those kinds of people as... monsters, which they'll fight. Oooops, abyss again.

It's a no-win situation that will only be solved when the left will ostracize the idiots of their leanings just like the moderates of the right do to racists and whatnot.


I lean on the left and I see extremists of my side as a cancer to the legitimacy of the left's ideals. THEY are the ones who pooped on MY floor. Damn right I'll be pissed. I'll STILL combat injustices, but you can bet your ass that if I see an article about Sim City being sexist because there is no abortion clinic buildings available to purchase, thus women sims cannot be in charge of their own sexuality, I WILL criticise the author.

You want to be part of the solution? Take a good look at "your side" and identify the crazies. If you can't, guess what...?

 

[gargantual]

Firstly I think most people aren't going to identify as misogynist even if they are..

I think at the root of the issue is that both side of this debate come from very different viewpoints.

So if I may, I'd like to put across what may be considered a feminist viewpoint. It is still common ( to the point of being a daily occurrence for a majority of women ) to be exposed to a variety of behaviours that really should be unacceptable. Would you comment on someone you found sexually attractive in the street, or consider making physical contact with them without considering whether they've given permission? would you think it acceptable to be derogatory towards them if they refute any sexual advance? Can you think of a justification for enacting your desires without their consent? Now I would hope not, and I would hope the the majority of people would find all of the above behaviours disgusting.

Yet there still exists a minority significant enough to make this an issue for a large number of people.

So how do we end this? Now I don't have an answer for this, but one argument is that the objectification of women is prevalent throughout our society, and that these help to reinforce the validation that such behaviour is 'ok'. By becoming aware of these objectifications, and how they are repeated you can start to look at how we can make changes, without detracting from the media itself. These tropes are often employed without conscious thought, or awareness.

Lets be clear here, this is not me saying "stop all objectification" "never pander to sexual desires", because well that is censorship, and hell I like erotic media. Sexuality & desire are a cornerstone of what it means to be human, but it is the routine 'disempowerment' of women that is objected to.

Lets take an example: Princess Peach.... is kidnapping her vital to the game? could the story be rewritten in such a way to make her not be the damsel in distress EVERY time. Now I'm not saying we must do this, but the damsel in distress is a common trope, and not just in games, sure it can and should be used, it's a part of our culture, our history. But simply put it's really REALLY over used. You want to put that in a game/story/film/song sure go ahead but be aware of the perceived effects of doing so.

I'm so gonna get flamed for this post. I'm putting across a valid point of view, there are others, on both sides of the debate. Disagree if you must, but accept it's a point of view thats out there. I'm much more interested in finding a common ground.

See here's the thing. A lot of media over time is filled with the non essential window dressings and fetishizations of their creators. Its like the decorations and feng shui of a persons home or studio. Now we have focus grouped fan servicing but its simply the hallmarks of a creative work where consumers can feel that sense of ownership. I recognize the importance of sharing that with other demographics. But some people want as much exploitation and freedom, as mirrored dignity. That's why some play the Sims while others play GTA.

Instruction and journalism, and scientific study are bound by rules of keeping things clean to determine truth. They demand strict reduction of self insertion in order for facts and data to be more clear. In fiction though. The right to go completely HAM is just implied can people mess up sure, but we give people the benefit of the doubt to put exploitation to use unless the entire creative work collapses and games have more ways to appeal than film and books. So its the very PRECEDENT to objectify and explore that through fiction @grassgremlin is talking about. All humans do it. When society draws Jack Thompson links to statistics which aren't entirely on point, and makes presumptions of consumers to ostracize a certain media out of circulation, and say its no longer right for a certain demographic to do it anymore, to entertain certain thoughts and fantasies its still challenging that main precedent for everybody.


The fact that trope is beaten to death enough to irritate people just means its fertile ground to stay the course for a new legion of oversensitive watchers to some artists. A lot of accomplished or everyday self-aware people in the real world don't have the time to care, they see their validation, feel everyone deserves their fantasies and don't need every form of media or subgenre to continuously validate their existence.

Even Sofia Vergara the richest of all TV actresses got annoyed at shrills attacking her 'put on a pedestal' joke at the Emmys.

It just leads back to Salman Rushdie's saying "What is freedom of expression without the freedom to offend? It is lost."

Artists can compensate by taking time to create and explore relatable dignified, and balanced people in larger works or fictional worlds for balance to exploitative worlds to dismiss any notion that they're psychoes. They've done so and I think that's the best, most sincere response to people worried about how they fit into someone else's picture, because we're not always going to agree. The random black dude that survived in Elysium was more than good enough for me.

 

[grassgremlin]

For me, I would like things to be settled without the disappearance of sex. There is a such thing as good pandering and the more I can see Nightwings perfect ass the less we half to complain when Spider-Woman's on all fours ass in the air.

Maybe, if I may be bold, society, our society doesn't know how to handle sex. Either that but it's placed into such a taboo manner that people get desperate or sexually repressed. I dunno. That's a shot in the dark. I could get flamed for that statement, right there.

P.S. Cat calls would make anyone uncomfortable.

Is funny, but in the whole Milo Manara Spiderwoman debacle the only thing that miffed me off was people claiming his artwork sucked and the pose was all wrong. wankers. It had no place on the front of comic book, but he is not a shitty artist.

more on topic it's generally true that advertisers and some game deves horribly misuse sex to sell product and very much bias it towards the male gaze. Honestly i'm kind of tired of being treated like a horn dog that only thinks about sex. It's tiresome what ever the truth of it.

Sex is a part of everyday life, i just don't know what it's doing in a dungeon based loot crawler or a fighting game.

That last sentence. Their is a lot of sense being made in that. While I am preaching the benefits of sexual equality, I do play games where sex is not a factor in the games design and I would be happy if they stay that way.

Dungeon Based Loot Crawler is subjective. That really depends, however, fighting games, I dunno. This is entirely opinion, but I honestly can't see that genre without one or two sexy characters. That's my own preference, I like fighting and sexy characters, but I do somewhat agree if the environment doesn't ask for it.

Dead or Alive is a good exampled of unnecessary objectification. Sans for a very few characters, none of the women seem like they should be dressed the way they are. My most hated fighting game character is Kasumi for that exact reason. I never seen such a ridiculous contradiction of a character. Shy, reserved, innocent girl, wearing what appears to be kimono ribbon and thigh-high stockings. Sorry, but you raising my suspension of disbelief to high, game.

 

[Jesterscup]

It just leads back to Salman Rushdie's saying "What is freedom of expression without the freedom to offend? It is lost."

I have to say, I'm not really sure why you quoted me, and for the most part I actually agree with you.

That being said, let me share a slightly different point of view. I've got a board gaming family, we play catan, archigelago, blueprints, magewars and many many more games. One game we don't play is munchkin, not because it's not very good, or the game mechanics suck, because the humour and sillyness makes up for it. NO we don't play it for the art. We don't play it because I've an 8yr old Daughter, and frankly we vet a lot of our media ( actually all of it ), for messages and subtexts. In munchkins case all the women are highly sexualised, busty & underdressed. Now I don't want that game banned, I'm not going to moan to/about the artist, I celebrate his right to create art like that. But it saddens me that I've one less game to play with the family because of said art. The same is done for children's media, where tropes and stereotypes are also all pervasive, that which is not suitable is simply not allowed.

Now yes you can say thats censorship, and perhaps it is. But before you do, what is being asked is "is this suitable for this person who I have a legal and ethical duty over. Am I doing my best at raising a healthy balanced individual", and also if I cannot censor that what right have I to censor other materials thats not suitable?

 

[Erttheking]

People are never going to come out into the open and say "I hate women" or "I'm sexist" A man can get angry at being called sexist because "My boss is a woman and I have no problems with her". But then his next door neighbor has sex with three different men and he calls her a slut. But he doesn't think that that's sexist because "Well I'm not sexist." That's the problem. People usually don't see the problems with ways of living that they have grown up with, that they have come to seen as normal. People don't think something is a problem unless it runs up into their face and screams ?I?m a problem? It?s why so many people are unconcerned about global warming. Out of sight out of mind.

What?s more, we like to oversimplify things like this in our minds eye. If someone hates women, they must be shallow bitter people. They could just be normal people with an unhealthy mindset. My mother is a sweet and wonderful woman. She thinks white and black people shouldn?t marry. That is a racist mindset. And she doesn?t see the problem with it and doesn?t like it when I call her racist, because she doesn?t consider herself racist because she isn?t like her mother who thought all black men were theives, and she thinks she?s right because it?s the way she was raised. Same concept.

 

[Jack Action]

People are never going to come out into the open and say "I hate women" or "I'm sexist" A man can get angry at being called sexist because "My boss is a woman and I have no problems with her". But then his next door neighbor has sex with three different men and he calls her a slut.

So... what's that man if he has the has the same opinion of men who sleep around?

Besides a nosy dick, I mean.

 

[gargantual]

It just leads back to Salman Rushdie's saying "What is freedom of expression without the freedom to offend? It is lost."

I have to say, I'm not really sure why you quoted me, and for the most part I actually agree with you.

That being said, let me share a slightly different point of view. I've got a board gaming family, we play catan, archigelago, blueprints, magewars and many many more games. One game we don't play is munchkin, not because it's not very good, or the game mechanics suck, because the humour and sillyness makes up for it. NO we don't play it for the art. We don't play it because I've an 8yr old Daughter, and frankly we vet a lot of our media ( actually all of it ), for messages and subtexts. In munchkins case all the women are highly sexualised, busty & underdressed. Now I don't want that game banned, I'm not going to moan to/about the artist, I celebrate his right to create art like that. But it saddens me that I've one less game to play with the family because of said art. The same is done for children's media, where tropes and stereotypes are also all pervasive, that which is not suitable is simply not allowed.

Now yes you can say thats censorship, and perhaps it is. But before you do, what is being asked is "is this suitable for this person who I have a legal and ethical duty over. Am I doing my best at raising a healthy balanced individual", and also if I cannot censor that what right have I to censor other materials thats not suitable?

I admit I'm not a parent. I can imagine it must be extremely hectic dealing with exploitative media and worrying about how your own seed and blood is internalizing it. I've been to parties where I feel they wouldn't prefer unwinding to GTA5, but Telltales: The Walking Dead provides a nice alternative and it takes up a good deal of the night, and others where the common sentiment is 'the nastier the better'. Think of how it is for a Hip Hop DJ who wants to play a college show but its a prudent private campus or some family event. "Ulp can't play THAT tune, or THAT tune. Its soo offensive, but this is my FAVORITE song. But hey, only seven more years and then you or your spouse'll be ready to have "THE TALK" (do ppl still call it 'the talk' anymore? Heh heh heh.)

I believe there could be more balance for impressionable audiences, and it is true we could make more media for family consumption, nothings pure. Even the original sleeping beauty is perceived as offensive instead of old fashioned because of maleficent. but I think framing sexuality, conflict, exploitation, and adding depth or constructive aspects to fictions is the main room for improvement area among general audiences, because those subjects are inescapable. Part of that whole conflict is the very essence of drama.

As for whether or not it might discourage her from being a nuclear physicist or motivational speaker, businesswoman, psychologist or who knows. Remember those drives such as our own career curiosities are internal and cannot be completely shaken by mixed media messages when you're hungry. Look at the fallout from TV news sensationalism from our demographic. A lot of us are on the fence about whats out there now and how to internalize what we see read and hear. So if you're teaching her skepticism. Thats the best thing

Developers with more dignified perspectives are filling the gap, and there are TONS of games. I heard of one dad that played GTA5 with his son, and reconciled by not doing the missions, but all the leisurely activities and driving.

One thing I gotta ask. I usually ask this out of curiosity of friends I meet. What were your first Rated R films, and how old were you roughly when you saw them?

 

[Erttheking]

People are never going to come out into the open and say "I hate women" or "I'm sexist" A man can get angry at being called sexist because "My boss is a woman and I have no problems with her". But then his next door neighbor has sex with three different men and he calls her a slut.

So... what's that man if he has the has the same opinion of men who sleep around?

Besides a nosy dick, I mean.

He'd probably be a puritan. Not sexist though.

 

[Jesterscup]

One thing I gotta ask. I usually ask this out of curiosity of friends I meet. What were your first Rated R films, and how old were you roughly when you saw them?

Yeah ok... I'll bite..

I watched a lot of stuff with my big brother when we were growing up, My mum usually wasn't home, or was drunk ( or worse ), so it's worth pointing out that these were viewed without her parental consent.

I'm not sure exactly how the 'R' classification works, so here's a list, pick what fits

Hammer horror ( pretty much all of them, I remember bride of dracula pretty vividly) - 5 to 7
Nightmare on elm street - 9
I saw robocop when it came out, I must've been 11
american werewolf in london about 9

As to pornography, my step-dad had a party with his friends when I was 17 and they watched some porn... I couldn't handle being in a room with other people watching it ( and had a bunch of other issues at the time), left in less than a minute, didn't watch porn again until I was about 25 ...

 

[Jack Action]

He'd probably be a puritan. Not sexist though.

Well, I've been called plenty of things, but I have to say, that's a new one.

On topic though, I wish people would use the 'it's very bad armor' more often when it comes to chainmail bikinis and boob plates. First, it's a perfectly valid argument (...because they are absolutely terrible armor), and second the usual 'IT'S SEXIST' argument (which may or may not be valid, depending entirely on your point of view) results in, well, this. People feeling bad for liking things.

Imo using arguments about how practical bits of gear and battlefield poses are would significantly cut down on the amount of vitriol thrown around; and while I do enjoy seeing said vitriol, it makes communication, and therefore actually fixing what may or may not be a problem borderline impossible.

 

[Erttheking]

He'd probably be a puritan. Not sexist though.

Well, I've been called plenty of things, but I have to say, that's a new one.

On topic though, I wish people would use the 'it's very bad armor' more often when it comes to chainmail bikinis and boob plates. First, it's a perfectly valid argument (...because they are absolutely terrible armor), and second the usual 'IT'S SEXIST' argument (which may or may not be valid, depending entirely on your point of view) results in, well, this. People feeling bad for liking things.

Imo using arguments about how practical bits of gear and battlefield poses are would significantly cut down on the amount of vitriol thrown around; and while I do enjoy seeing said vitriol, it makes communication, and therefore actually fixing what may or may not be a problem borderline impossible.

That was probably a bad choice of words on my part. In reality there are some things we just don't have words for. There's nothing shameful about having your view point.

 

[Thaluikhain]

He'd probably be a puritan. Not sexist though.

Well, I've been called plenty of things, but I have to say, that's a new one.

On topic though, I wish people would use the 'it's very bad armor' more often when it comes to chainmail bikinis and boob plates. First, it's a perfectly valid argument (...because they are absolutely terrible armor), and second the usual 'IT'S SEXIST' argument (which may or may not be valid, depending entirely on your point of view) results in, well, this. People feeling bad for liking things.

Imo using arguments about how practical bits of gear and battlefield poses are would significantly cut down on the amount of vitriol thrown around; and while I do enjoy seeing said vitriol, it makes communication, and therefore actually fixing what may or may not be a problem borderline impossible.

The chainmail bikini doesn't exist because people mistakenly think it'd work as armour, though. It exists because of a desire to depict men and women very differently.