Misogyny or What?

[omicronpercei]

Omi, sorry to be the bearer of the big red flag of real life, but

"Girls do have a tendency to manipulate until the age of 24"

Misogynistic tosser much?

Not misogyny, Realism. I don't hate women by any means, but having been screwed over by manipulative women enough times will hone your bullshit meter to perfection. I've known women to say "Once a female realizes she can get whatever she wants with a blowjob, that's the end of discussion". However I firmly believe this whole discussion is subject to the old addage "Just a couple bad apples spoiling the whole bunch"

 

[Seldon2639]

I need a link to the original thread, you can't just take these comments out of context, it doesn't make any sense that way. How do I know these weren't replies to an OP who made it blatantly obvious that the girl was being "manipulative". I wouldn't call it that, but that's the term you picked.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.86505?page=1

The OP doesn't seem to indicate that the girl is ostentatiously manipulative (or selfish, if you prefer the word), and in fact defends her from such criticism. You could argue that it's Stockholm syndrome (or at least analogous to it), but then we're moving far afield of the original topic.

 

[Majithicus]

Sure some girls are, for lack of a better word, evil, but many girls are just... normal.

What I'm trying to say is that it is unfair to say that every girl in the world is nasty. Some guy who got dumped has come on to the internet and chosen to cry his eyes out. Then every 13 year old on the damn forum has done the same thing. Please try and treat women with respect. Without them, the whole world is just one long rugby locker room.

 

[Metonym]

Well the only way is to constantly keep trying new ones (girls) and see if the misogyny thingy can be falsified..eventually..

ad-hoc deductive reasons as baseline for your views on the other sex is weak

Girls can however be pretty mean when it comes to interpersonal "non violence violence"

 

[omicronpercei]

Well the only way is to constantly keep trying new ones (girls) and see if the misogyny thingy can be falsified..eventually..

ad-hoc deductive reasons as baseline for your views on the other sex is weak

Girls can however be pretty mean when it comes to interpersonal "non violence violence"

He's right, they're brain ninjas...guys will physically hurt you...women will ruin your psyche

 

[Kaisharga]

I am glad to see this thread, and it reminds me why I check the Escapist instead of, say, Kotaku.

Since nobody's done it yet, the Heartless Bitches International [http://www.xkcd.com/513/]--some good reading on "nice guy" misogyny there too, which I feel is related if peripherally so.

My thoughts on romantic (augh, hate that word) relationships are that yes, you have to be looking for them, but you don't have to worry about setting everything up just perfectly to max out your odds of success. And hey, I just now realized that link to the "nerd" archetype--maximizing probability by measured (and presumably repeatable) means is a preferable way to do things; unfortunately for this approach, women stretch a terribly wide variety, and boiling them down to the simple noun "women" is counterproductive, sexist, and insulting. "Men want X," "women want Y," this isn't stuff you can just say--it is cruelly reductionist and completely devoid of respect.

 

[Railu]

Omi, sorry to be the bearer of the big red flag of real life, but

"Girls do have a tendency to manipulate until the age of 24"

Misogynistic tosser much?

Wow, I agree. That is WAY off. Everyone knows women don't stop manipulating. I kid, I kid.

But there is some truth to it, but it certainly isn't every girl. Hate me for saying this, but there are a lot of women who only get their way through manipulating it. Mostly through childhood from parents who really don't care that much about their kids and the only way for them to get attention or anything is really to try to manipulate them into feeling guilt.

You can say that you're a woman and you don't manipulate guys, but I have to contend that most women do it without realizing it. Women are far more passive-aggressive than men and will try to take subtle approaches without directly telling their bf/husband what they want. I have never, NEVER dated a girl who didn't at some point try to manipulate my feelings into getting some kind of goal whether it was an undeserved apology, a legitimate apology, a gift, spend time away from my friends or simply to exact some kind of justice they thought the deserved for some heinous act (like not doing the dishes after repeatedly clanging the dishes on the counter and proclaiming "Damn, this kitchen is so dirty!")

The thing is, I'm so easily approachable. You don't need to take backwater tactics to get my attention. Just ask me. Feeling too tired to do the dishes? I'll help. I'm tired too, but since I love you I'll do it for you. But don't make a scene because you don't want to be the bad guy for asking me.

That is manipulation too. Indirectly influencing or affecting someone to get what you want.

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

Confidence and decency are very closely interlinked. Many insecure people will shy away from decency for not feeling adequate enough to deal with the situation.

And like you said about perceptiveness, it takes confidence to be perceptive.

" should like you for who you are is not feeble in the slightest"

I massively disagree. Who you are, that is to say, how you treat people, everyday, is a very large part based on concious decisions and person morals. The whole "But it's who I am!" arguement communicates a naive sense of entitlement that has no basis in reality whatsoever. Just like everyone has choices in how they act towards others, they all have choices in "Who they are" - Personalities, more generally, are flexible constructs, knocked around by exposure to new ideas and events.

Somone who hates on a person for rejecting them because "Who they are" wasn't up to scratch, always makes me think of a child going, BUT YOU PWOMISED! at the world and their rejector for feeding them this, "Everyone should love you for who you are, even if you're a hateful lunatic racist autistic pokefanatic" line.

I don't exactly appreciate you bagging on autism, as my good friend's little brother is autistic.
Also, I don't want to be involved with someone who isn't going to like me for who I am. Now I disagree to an extent about personalities changing. Personalities, generally speaking, when they do change, change in very subtle ways. They don't just do a 180, or at least without some really extenuating or even extreme circumstances. Personality changes of that magnitude do happen, it would be foolish of me to say that they don't, but they usually take months if not years. Though we may just have to agree to disagree here.
As an example, what would you feel if someone you liked thought you were nice and everything, but refused to have anything to do with you because you are a gamer? What I think this thread is referring to when they say "like me for me" is to look past things like that and see the person underneath. I don't at all think wanting someone to like you for the person you are as opposed to how much money you make, or how strong you are, or how good looking you are is at all feeble, and that applies equally to both genders. Of course with that said, confidence is a good thing, and how you carry yourself and act towards others should be important. I am not trying to be conceited here, but I think I am a decent person, capable of understanding, and for the most part open-minded. I don't act the way I do to impress anyone else, so why would I change that for a girl I am interested in?
What about guys who are confident and use their charm (as you put it, have masculinity and know how to generate attraction) to attract girls, use them, and then toss them aside like rags?
Now, I agree with you in that I can't stand those who wine and ***** about their inability.
I think what Wolfwind is saying is yeah, you are showing decency, but that still really stings to be in that position. Of course you want to help her because you care, but it still doesn't feel all that great.

 

[Lord George]

Its just all these young teenagers thinking they've found love at 15 and then the girl goes off and they vent their rage onto the internet, their are plenty more fish in the sea especially when your young, also its really easy to manipulate the right women, such as those who are insecure about themselves, or their appearance or who get easily seduced by a silver tongue, and if all else fails they just need to get them drunk enough. So there's both my advice and views. I'm not a misogynist I just hate everyone.

 

[Railu]

Its just all these young teenagers thinking they've found love at 15 and then the girl goes off and they vent their rage onto the internet, their are plenty more fish in the sea especially when your young, also its really easy to manipulate the right women, such as those who are insecure about themselves, or their appearance or who get easily seduced by a silver tongue, and if all else fails they just need to get them drunk enough. So there's both my advice and views. I'm not a misogynist I just hate everyone.

Agree for the most part. When you're 14, 15, 16, it's almost never going to turn into anything long term. You may think it's love, but what you have is young love (aka puppy love). There are always the highschool sweetheart who get married anecdotes, but that is actually quite rare unless you live in a very small town.

You're going to meet and date maybe 4-12 different women before you truly find love. When you're that young, it's so fresh and exciting that you can't help but get swept away in it. But you have to take my word on this, you will meet women who are 2x, 5x, 10x the woman that this girl is (to the OP).

Girls at that age will respond to confident and attractive guys, even if they are total douches. Even if they say they want a sensitive, sweet guy who will sweep them off their feet... crock of s***. They don't know what they want.

One piece of advice I can give. Focus on your future. Become a stronger person and don't neglect your studies. When you're 25 and building yourself to be a success, women will flock to you in droves.

Everything changes after highschool and I mean everything. If you build your life around what goes on in those hallways, your life will get turned on its ear when you leave.

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

" What I think this thread is referring to when they say "like me for me" is to look past things like that and see the person underneath"

The "person underneath" is simply the engine of attitudes and ideas that churns out the actions in real life, so your whole point is kinda bunk.


Here is a very simple truth: What you believe to be women trying to "Manipulate" you are simply women TESTING you.

Women test men all the time to see if they have the confidence/masculine personality traits like independence, confidence, and often sheer bloodymindedness, because these are all attractive on a very basic level (Think of how many women stay with complete jerks- because they can't help but find them attractive, even if they don't want to).

It's like, a woman looks at you across the bar. Normal guy looks away, and then looks back 2 seconds later. But it's too late and she's looking somewhere else. BEEEEPPPP! Test failed. Correct action is to maintain eye contact until SHE looks away. Maintains position of confidence/being unfazed.

So when a woman is trying to "manipulate" you into doing something, what she's actually doing is seeing whether you're going to roll over and walk, would you kindly, run, would you kindly, sit, would you kindly, stand, would you kindly, and follow her every whim because she's attractive.

This is where this whole bullshit comes from - Guys who complain about being "Manipulated" when they've simply followed the womans every whim. Women don't WANT that! They want somone who will do the exact goddamn opposite, oftimes. It's just the guys who do become mindless puppies for attractive women inevitably end up bitching about women being "manipulative" because it DIDNT GET THEM ANYWHERE.


/wisdom

In my defense I never said any woman has manipulated me, as none have. Also, I have never been to a bar so I haven't had any experience with that. I never understood why some women stay with guys who are complete trash, but then I don't really understand women all that well, ok who am I kidding I don't know the first thing about them, but then again I don't understand the human race all that well either.

 

[Marbas]

OH NOOOOOO I AM SUCH A NICE GUY AND GIRLS WON'T DATE ME BECAUSE I AM TOO NICE. THIS IS A COMPLETELY LOGICAL STATEMENT. REALLY GUYS, I MEAN, IT'S NOT LIKE COMPLAINING ABOUT BEING NICE OR ONLY BEING A GOOD FRIEND DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NOT REALLY NICE OR THEIR FRIEND. YEAH, IT'S TOTALLY RATIONAL TO BE A SELF-SERVING DOUCHEBAG WHO THINKS WOMEN ARE TERRIBLE FRIENDS.

 

[Phoenix Arrow]

Hmm. Being rejected is a tough thing and converting the things you like about someone into things you hate is a wayy of coping with it. A really self-destructibe way but a way nonetheless. Seen it happen plenty.
Then of course there's people who get reject it and blame it on anything apart from themselves. Usually this happens the first time you get rejected because well, at this stage there's no common pattern so you go with what makes you feel better.

You can blame it on her being shallow or money grabbing or even that you're stuck in the friend zone, but you know what? Females are human too and if they don't want to go out with you there's only one reason kiddies. They're simply not attracted to you (either by personality or appearance). Trust me on this, at secondary school I was the one everyone, male or female, in my friendship groups would come to and complain about their love life. Comes with being a nice/brutally honest person I guess.

 

[Chiasm]

It's like, a woman looks at you across the bar. Normal guy looks away, and then looks back 2 seconds later. But it's too late and she's looking somewhere else. BEEEEPPPP! Test failed. Correct action is to maintain eye contact until SHE looks away. Maintains position of confidence/being unfazed.

I wonder where you got this whole mindset of what a woman is, I never knew I tested men on a daily basis, The things I learn from men who tell me what I should act like as a woman is outstanding I swear.

Look it's a woman by woman basis. I know tons of women who are in love with there geeky programmers after having to deal with jerks. As well I know women who just can't say no to that guy in the corner in a leather jacket drinking whiskey who has stories of the Iraq war.

Bottom line: Don't give horribly wrong wisdom about women?

 

[Marbas]

It's like, a woman looks at you across the bar. Normal guy looks away, and then looks back 2 seconds later. But it's too late and she's looking somewhere else. BEEEEPPPP! Test failed. Correct action is to maintain eye contact until SHE looks away. Maintains position of confidence/being unfazed.

I wonder where you got this whole mindset of what a woman is, I never knew I tested men on a daily basis, The things I learn from men who tell me what I should act like as a woman is outstanding I swear.

Look it's a woman by woman basis. I know tons of women who are in love with there geeky programmers after having to deal with jerks. As well I know women who just can't say no to that guy in the corner in a leather jacket drinking whiskey who has stories of the Iraq war.

Bottom line: Don't give horribly wrong wisdom about women?

John Doe Damnit is the from the problem group that occupies the other end of the spectrum. I've seen them humorously referred to as "Real Men" with them and "Nice Guys" representing two unpleasant archetypes that make a boatload of sexist assumptions. Yes confidence is attractive, but it's not everything and it's very easy to have way too much.

 

[Chiasm]

John Doe Damnit is the from the problem group that occupies the other end of the spectrum. I've seen them humorously referred to as "Real Men" with them and "Nice Guys" representing two unpleasant archetypes that make a boatload of sexist assumptions. Yes confidence is attractive, but it's not everything and it's very easy to have way too much.

Ya, thank god for the middle of the spectrum non stereotypical men. Myself I love dominance and confidence and looks to a degree. But unlike some women I like the rugged mannish type look and not the pretty boy looks. But I know women who are opposite.

I mean my advise to the OP is I think if you realize women are people to and all people have different tastes,You'll find you can better connect to anyone female or male. I mean even within both males and females some play games and some don't. So can't just generalize either sex's.

 

[Uncompetative]

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_OK_You%27re_OK

 

[Enfid]

Its just all these young teenagers thinking they've found love at 15 and then the girl goes off and they vent their rage onto the internet, their are plenty more fish in the sea especially when your young, also its really easy to manipulate the right women, such as those who are insecure about themselves, or their appearance or who get easily seduced by a silver tongue, and if all else fails they just need to get them drunk enough. So there's both my advice and views. I'm not a misogynist I just hate everyone.

Agree for the most part. When you're 14, 15, 16, it's almost never going to turn into anything long term. You may think it's love, but what you have is young love (aka puppy love). There are always the highschool sweetheart who get married anecdotes, but that is actually quite rare unless you live in a very small town.

You're going to meet and date maybe 4-12 different women before you truly find love. When you're that young, it's so fresh and exciting that you can't help but get swept away in it. But you have to take my word on this, you will meet women who are 2x, 5x, 10x the woman that this girl is (to the OP).

Girls at that age will respond to confident and attractive guys, even if they are total douches. Even if they say they want a sensitive, sweet guy who will sweep them off their feet... crock of s***. They don't know what they want.

One piece of advice I can give. Focus on your future. Become a stronger person and don't neglect your studies. When you're 25 and building yourself to be a success, women will flock to you in droves.

Everything changes after highschool and I mean everything. If you build your life around what goes on in those hallways, your life will get turned on its ear when you leave.

Agree with everything here. Totally.

I tend to agree with everything John_Doe_Damnit said too. The way he put things tend to be towards sarcasm, satire, and, for a lack of a better word, being a bit of a jerk. You gotta admit he has confidence and most likely knows what he's talking about.

For my opinion on this, I think women has a tendency to 'manipulate' the psyche of a male, even without them knowing it. If you think about it, there might've been situations where the female had given you an overwhelming sense of guilt with just one sentence. That makes you having to do what they were suggesting. (like the example given earlier in the post about you not washing the dishes and she starts saying 'I can't believe how dirty the sink is', compared to the less subtle approach of the guy saying 'Hey come help we with the dishes, would ya?'.)

The existence of the female gender had always been about anything SOCIAL since the beginning of civilization. For this, they tend to have a very developed unconscious knowledge of social communications and relationships. And when you have a knowledge of something you WILL manipulate it, instinctively or deliberately.

Again, not ALL women will be like this. Some women set aside instinctive manipulating for good reasoning. I just find this really hard to find.

As for guys manipulating the girls, I think there's a tendency for the use of that idea because the guys lack the 'instinctive manipulation' that the girls have. Males are 'problem solvers' that means we mostly think on a cause-effect base that is explainable. If you do something on a cause-effect basis, isn't that 'manipulation'?

Guy likes Girl. Girl does not fancy Guy. Guy have to try something else to change the chance of success. 'Distance yourself' 'act unavailable' Manipulating? Yes. Bad? I don't think so.

On the additional subject about 'is being in the friend zone bad', well depends on your situation. If you want to be just friends, then of course not, it's not bad. However, most guys, if they are single, will want a relationship just based on the urge of reproduction that is oh-so-strong, even if it's a purely romantic and not sexual relationship (though this often lead to other complications, but is outside the scope of this discussion). If the girl is decent, and the guy likes the girl, then being in the friend zone is the shittiest place you can be in, especially when she's taken and comes back to you to complain about her current relationship.

 

[kiwi_abroad]

Its just all these young teenagers thinking they've found love at 15.

Agreed.

You can say whatever you want, but at 15, you have NO idea what you're doing. Hormones are through the roof, your brain isn't fully developed, and I daresay that over half of the population have no idea where they want to be in 10 years, or what they want from life specifically.

It's really easy to look at what is happening (or not happening) in your life romantically in your early teens as being hugely important, but in 10 years, you'll be somewhere else emotionally, physically, and intellectually, and it will all seem less important.

What 14 year old boys don't seem to realise is that women are people too. They have interesting opinions, look at problem resolution in a completely different way, and have the added advantage of smelling nice.

That last one looks creepy in text. Hmm.

Anyway, I suspect that most of the posts referenced by the OP are made by young men or early adolescents who are still dealing with the first rejection in their lives, which in and of itself is an interesting tangent: isn't the first romantic rejection in one's life the first point where you whine,

"What about me?"

and get the respose from the world,

"Well, what about you?"

As I see it, the fact is that most teenagers are in fact rather horrible people through no real fault of their own, and that, quite frankly, there's little point at all in stressing out about it. It just doesn't really matter.